Player Features and Ideas Discussion

We both know that's not true. The newbie in a rifter will have an very difficult time against the veteran in the same rifter, since the vet has the support skills to fly the ship well.

Of course sp matter hence why the choices you make matter. Implants are not pay to win they are pay isk to reach level V in skills a bit faster. The pkayer with patience will reach the same combat capbility as the player who pays a lot more at a much lower cost. It really is not thaf much faster wit +5s compared to +3s and the end point is the same so really it is pay to reach the end point of skills on an individual basis a little bit faster for no net gain once the other players patience has paid off. You risk the imps or you don't which is a perfectly valid choice.

As for the noob losing to a vet why in Eve should that not be the case??? Of course they should lose 1v1!

Using +3s the new player will probably get to level Vskills on a pirate frig about a week later than somrone with+5s so I really don't see why someone shouldn't have to learn that patience is the only virtue applicable in Eve...

+5s should only really be used by those that can afford them usually older players with only high level skills left to train where the extra bit of sp per hour probably will help a bit.

Keep removing these rpg element and Eve will deteriorate into World of Spaceships over time

For 3 what are you giving as a replacement? You see....the stat boosting aspect to the implants are part of their value. I'd be looking at HG talons since I run them. Over the years ccp has lessened their value. Unprobable was removed, then t2 fury sig bloom removed (I got them for both on pve tengu tbh), then ccp put in sensor strength skills. Max these, run low grades with eccm and sensor back array and if a falcon is jamming you it was meant to be, more or less. HG's an iffy investment at this point imo to change this result. I was a disgruntled hg talon owner...until ccp threw a bone and made them +4's.

SO what are set implants getting, especailly HG's, to keep there value? Sensor implants like my talons in particular for starters. For fun you can work out rebalance on snakes when bored. IIRC they were nerfed long ago and gave speed boosts deemed op iirc the story correctly.





For 5...how is this helping the noobs. You would be bringing back learning skills. In the form of booster skills. Biology at least and tbh I to make this idea have legitimacy would be asking for downsides. You want boosters...well lets make em boosters. Boosters have downsides. Down sides with skills to offset them. Say hello to the the new learning skills renamed under the neural enhancement skill set. edit: Neural enhancement skill the average veteran players would have already if they pvp just in case they want to run a drug for a touch of spice.


Also how is this helping the noob when a viable market for them is being taken away and is purely out of empire? Unless I missed in a some patch notes, or you have in mind what pos' can run in empire changing, drug labs can't be run in empire. ATM empire noobs can bang out +x implants running storyline missions or LP turn in. This gives them the means to compete in these markets..or opt to save some isk and run what they find/turn in lp for.

Your world, they lose this. They are at the mercy of out of empire. Not seeing cheap drugs here, they don't have empire competition (as afaik no drug labs in empire, nor components for the drugs as they are out of empire as well).

And I don't see crazy low prices resulting from this. Any price breaks we see on current combat boosts I believe is based on the fact makers of them and the people they get to harvest the components know blue pill, as an example, is not a must have item to run for pvp. If they charged more though the nose...they'd get less sales as peeps would say I don't need the benefits that much. All that changes when these learning boosters become must haves.

Of course sp matter hence why the choices you make matter. Implants are not pay to win they are pay isk to reach level V in skills a bit faster. The pkayer with patience will reach the same combat capbility as the player who pays a lot more at a much lower cost. It really is not thaf much faster wit +5s compared to +3s and the end point is the same so really it is pay to reach the end point of skills on an individual basis a little bit faster for no net gain once the other players patience has paid off. You risk the imps or you don't which is a perfectly valid choice.

As for the noob losing to a vet why in Eve should that not be the case??? Of course they should lose 1v1!

Using +3s the new player will probably get to level Vskills on a pirate frig about a week later than somrone with+5s so I really don't see why someone shouldn't have to learn that patience is the only virtue applicable in Eve...

+5s should only really be used by those that can afford them usually older players with only high level skills left to train where the extra bit of sp per hour probably will help a bit.

Keep removing these rpg element and Eve will deteriorate into World of Spaceships over time

Your argument supports what I'm saying.

That 6 month old character has more "SP" focused into that ship, so again, the fight came down to SP.

I understand your argument was to say more SP doesn't mean better, however, you're making an argument towards player skill, which is the 20% I mentioned...
If you never focus your SP on anything, you're not gonna pilot anything worth a crap.

Change that up and say that the older character maxed out an entire race of ships, and then he's pitted against a 6 month old character who focused purely on a combat frig, it's likely that 6 month old would lose, unless he brought a direct counter to what the older character had brought.
Then again, this really can't be used as a relevant argument because counters are counters.

The only way to make this relevant is to pit them against each other in the same ship with the same fitting.
The older character is likely to have much more support skills for that ship.
Turret damage and application skills, tanking skills, velocity skills, etc. etc. etc...

I would also like to note that I'd love seeing that little frig take on a carrier....
The only way that's going to happen is with a bunch of little frigs, and that's the equivalent of bringing more SP, but then again, even if it takes a less total amount of SP, you're countering them so it's out of the scope of the argument, yet again.

This is the only part I need to reply to, as I wasn't referring to the OP.
I believe the OP is an idea worse than what we have.


My side of this entire argument is just the complete removal of attributes effecting system all together.

I want to see it all removed and all players operate off a base line training time.


With this suggestion implemented, it would change things dramatically.


It would then change to 80% player skill and 20% SP...
The reason I can that that is, if we all train at the same rate at two players are pitted against each other in the same ship with same fit, ti will come down to player skill.
The only reason SP is a 20% factor is in the case of a newer player who hasn't had the time to reach the same efficiency with that ship.


Perhaps I should start a new thread regarding the removal of the system entirely, as the OP kinda throws that subject off.

Gonna say this. I know bitters just as deadly on low sp cyno alts they threw on some combat skills.


You fly rifters for a while, you get good at them. Gunnery all 5 adds some icing to the cake granted, but the actual cake of skill has to be there to be any good really.

Or I could look at me. I trained amarr on my empire break that has gone on way to long...Assuming my mac' clients errors clear up (game crashes for reasons beyond me) I have an eye to trying rvb on a small x-mas break. Put me in same ship and fit as a less than 1 year player (I am 6 years and change) and I got 5 on him (not throwing the match even to win the bet lol). Never flew amarr in pvp, I imagine I have a few things to learn.

Especially since my last pvp was 0.0 crews on campaign. In caldari (rokh the bs I am most familiar with) and towards the end mimnatar ships. I can can follow a FC's order to warp to player T target and incap pos gun 1 pretty damn good. Solo or skirmish in a frigate or cruiser...not even going to lie, I have little to no experience in this area. less than 1 year player has lived for this....has an edge in some ways.

If my argument supported what you were saying it was unintetnional :D

More SP most definitely means nothing as it is only the SP affecting the skills in use in a given circumstance( in this case combat) that matter at that time. In this case a 10 year old player and a six month old player can only ever have exactly the same skills at most. The time to train those skills can be affected by buying better implants and i am fine with that and like the choice. A new player will and should never need or buy the +5's as that's just daft risk to take. But it is a valid choice for them to make if they accept that risk as in hisec and losec it is very unlikely they would lose their pod. The old player can never have better support skills than the newer player if they have both maxed out the combat skills involved in the ship they are flying which over time becomes increasingly a smaller fraction of the total SP the player has.

Bringing more frigs isn't the equivalent of bringing more SP as the maximum amount of important SP in the given context is the same for every player. It is bringing more ships in a fleet and therefore more dps/reps. It is irrelevant what sp those players have as 3 tech II ships or 6 tech I ships with all skills at level IV (much faster to train) will have the same net result, a dead carrier.

The issue is not the increased speed of sp gain given by the implants, it is the ever dereasing level of patience being displayed by players. So what if a player earns enough extra sp per day to complete training for a raven(for example) a whole 10 days or so before another. Do the slower training players not have the patience to wait? If not then they should pay the price and accept the risk.

An analogy: Player A invest lots of isk into a blinged AF, player B brings a stanard fit AF and loses. Do we cry foul because Player A risked more isk to gain advantage? Of course not, even though they could have converted plex to isk to gain that advantage. However two players in standard fit AF's wouild most liekly eat the single AF and burn that investment.

Always crying 'P2W!' doesn't work in some situations and I firmly believe this is one of them. If someone want to throw billions of isk at +5's from plex or gameplay then good for CCP as they made more money. If the older player used isk then it is sunk from the game. If ssaid pilot then never undocks because of this guess wht? That's one older player out of the fight through there own fault which as an advantage to the enemy and said players own daft fault for buying something they aren't willing to risk.

Likewise in hisec if someone puts so much into there head so what? Other hisec folks will catch up to them in a reasonable timescale on the relevant skills for a given profession and bearing in mind the number of cries that hisec is 'too safe' they shouldn't be worried about risking their head by flying unless they are AFK in which case they deserve the loss if they get caught.

+1'd again.

no.

no because we don't need more implants.

no because the implants themselves are quite a hard idea for newbies.

no because Malcanis.

no because we DEFINITELY not need a consumable half an eve would bloody need. Just thinking of the demand for this thing, while supply will be likely limited, kills the idea.

no because I have a better proposal.

Here it is:

Clone modification. You have a default clone at 2000-whatever SP per hour on all skills. You replace it with a modified one, which is good at one of the 5 attributes, better at some others, worse at the opposite ones. New players get a boosted clone at the start and a tutorial to replace their clone according to skill affinity every clone gives.
So you have to choose a clone, since you can't have all of them at the same time, you can change them when you need to, new players are given time to tackle it with a good clone, good planning is rewarded by less clone changes, and there's a whole bucket of possible death penalties in it, pick any you like.
This is a new ISK sink, which replaces free remaps with something you can lore-justify, it's a bit more constrained, but has less margin for errors. We can have a timer on clone changes, just maybe less long than remaps one, which counters the fact there are no bonus remaps anymore (4 years in eve and I still have them, but that's me).