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PI Taxes?

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Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#221 - 2011-11-30 18:47:27 UTC
Jade Constantine wrote:
Ingvar Angst wrote:

Replacing the customs offices with your own simply incurs a what... 160M or so isk hit right away that will take many months (pre-patch levels) to recoup in savings from a 0% tax rate. You take the blow all at once, then have to look at this damnable object that's nothing more than an isk sucking worthless piece of crap floating in your wormhole. They add nothing to the experience of Eve at all from a wormhole perspective, and denigrate it for the lesser spaces outside wormholes.


Don't you think its kind of ridiculous that there are customs offices around unknown planets anyway. Perhaps wormhole PI should start with an expensive program of settlement and colonization and terriforming before you could use the planets in the first place.


Odd, yes... ridiculous no simply due to necessity. There needs to be a means to import and export goods afr greater than the rocket launches allow, and the original customs offices worked fine in that regards.

If you want ridiculous... how the hell did Interbus sneak into my wormhole and replace the customs offices with their pieces o' crap without us knowing about it? We'd have podded their asses back to empire before they set the damned things up and left the current system in place.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Catlos JeminJees
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#222 - 2011-11-30 18:48:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Catlos JeminJees
Sombre Asesinos wrote:
GhettoChick wrote:
stop bitching about the taxes and go around them by jet canning


How does one jet can planetary resources?



Link your wearhouse or launch pad to your comand center then launch from said comand center.

It launches a jet can into space and you get the Book mark. then warp to it and your set.

It costs a little under current Interbus / Concord Taxes.
Anela Cistine
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#223 - 2011-11-30 18:49:09 UTC
Ingvar Angst wrote:
So, I say again (respectfully), bullcrap. There's no risk/reward being added by these damnable contraptions. Just unnecessary and ill-thought out expense. And like I stated, these things really show their true worthlessness in wormholes, where the couple K in exports you'll save with 0% tax settings won't recoup the cost of these abominations for months (or longer). Just wasted isk. No added risk/reward.


Don't think of it as an added expense. Think of it as the normal expense, and the absurdly low cost of doing business before now was an introductory sale which has now ended.
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#224 - 2011-11-30 18:51:32 UTC
Catlos JeminJees wrote:
Sombre Asesinos wrote:
GhettoChick wrote:
stop bitching about the taxes and go around them by jet canning


How does one jet can planetary resources?



Link your wearhouse or launch pad to your comand center then launch from said comand center.

It launches a jet can into space and you get the Book mark. then warp to it and your set.

It costs a little under current Interbus / Concord Taxes.


How do you jetcan them back to a different planet for further refinement?

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Teamosil
Good Time Family Band Solution
#225 - 2011-11-30 18:53:14 UTC
Anela Cistine wrote:
Ingvar Angst wrote:
So, I say again (respectfully), bullcrap. There's no risk/reward being added by these damnable contraptions. Just unnecessary and ill-thought out expense. And like I stated, these things really show their true worthlessness in wormholes, where the couple K in exports you'll save with 0% tax settings won't recoup the cost of these abominations for months (or longer). Just wasted isk. No added risk/reward.


Don't think of it as an added expense. Think of it as the normal expense, and the absurdly low cost of doing business before now was an introductory sale which has now ended.


Don't even think of it as an expense. It's a profitable long term investment. The PI prices will likely balance out based on the cost of high sec PI, so that means with the tax priced in. If you don't build a POCO in a wormhole, you'll be making normal profits. If you build one and evade the tax, you'll make normal profits + the tax.
Ogi Talvanen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#226 - 2011-11-30 18:53:58 UTC
Y u no more work ISK printer?!
Teamosil
Good Time Family Band Solution
#227 - 2011-11-30 18:54:00 UTC
Ingvar Angst wrote:
How do you jetcan them back to a different planet for further refinement?


Jet canning doesn't help anyways. It costs almost the same as the customs office.
Aquila Draco
#228 - 2011-11-30 18:55:20 UTC
I have a question...
jetcan launch fee goes to owners of POCO or to noone?
and if POCO owner say that you cant use their POCO because of standings, can you use jetcan launch???
MNagy
Yo-Mama
#229 - 2011-11-30 18:59:55 UTC
As much as I do not like the new taxes within our wormhole, I agree with them.

It will force us to build some custom offices, and in turn other people to build some in their wormhole.

The 1 month or so of an extra tax till we get all our planets setup is nothing.

A little growing pain here and there, but what a great patch this was. The game looks amazing, and there were lots of adjustments everywhere.
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#230 - 2011-11-30 19:06:37 UTC
Teamosil wrote:
Anela Cistine wrote:
Ingvar Angst wrote:
So, I say again (respectfully), bullcrap. There's no risk/reward being added by these damnable contraptions. Just unnecessary and ill-thought out expense. And like I stated, these things really show their true worthlessness in wormholes, where the couple K in exports you'll save with 0% tax settings won't recoup the cost of these abominations for months (or longer). Just wasted isk. No added risk/reward.


Don't think of it as an added expense. Think of it as the normal expense, and the absurdly low cost of doing business before now was an introductory sale which has now ended.


Don't even think of it as an expense. It's a profitable long term investment. The PI prices will likely balance out based on the cost of high sec PI, so that means with the tax priced in. If you don't build a POCO in a wormhole, you'll be making normal profits. If you build one and evade the tax, you'll make normal profits + the tax.


"Normal" tax was 2 or 3 K for a shipment of P2 goods up, half that to import to a different planet for further processing, and another small tax to export processed goods. Now?

5000 Precious metals... 617K or so in taxes. Importing them to the next planet brings the taxes to over a million, with comparable taxes on other imported goods, meaning something like robotics, which requires four P2 items, has already been hit for 4M in taxes just to consolidate 5K of each item. Then you're hit again on the refined products you're exporting. We've gone, without exaggerating, from around 10K to millions of isk in taxes for something that provides little to no benefit to the game, and absolutely no benefit to wormhole existance. It's pure cost, pure expense. No added risk, no added rewards.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Teamosil
Good Time Family Band Solution
#231 - 2011-11-30 19:08:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Teamosil
Ingvar Angst wrote:
"Normal" tax was 2 or 3 K for a shipment of P2 goods up, half that to import to a different planet for further processing, and another small tax to export processed goods. Now?

5000 Precious metals... 617K or so in taxes. Importing them to the next planet brings the taxes to over a million, with comparable taxes on other imported goods, meaning something like robotics, which requires four P2 items, has already been hit for 4M in taxes just to consolidate 5K of each item. Then you're hit again on the refined products you're exporting. We've gone, without exaggerating, from around 10K to millions of isk in taxes for something that provides little to no benefit to the game, and absolutely no benefit to wormhole existance. It's pure cost, pure expense. No added risk, no added rewards.


You don't understand. The prices of the goods you produce went way up prior to the patch to take the new expense into account. The prices you can sell the stuff for is not fixed, it fluctuates based on how much it costs to make the stuff, how much of a pita it is, etc. So if everybody's costs go up X ISK, the price goes up X too. But in a wormhole you at least have the option to avoid the tax increase and make the usual profits PLUS the amount that the taxes are costing other players.
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#232 - 2011-11-30 19:09:14 UTC
MNagy wrote:
As much as I do not like the new taxes within our wormhole, I agree with them.

It will force us to build some custom offices, and in turn other people to build some in their wormhole.

The 1 month or so of an extra tax till we get all our planets setup is nothing.

A little growing pain here and there, but what a great patch this was. The game looks amazing, and there were lots of adjustments everywhere.





How does it help you? Seriously, how do these PCOs help you in any way, shape or form in your alleged wormhole? Eight planets, that's about a billion or so spent if you make your own gantries, much more if you buy them. For what value? What gain?

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#233 - 2011-11-30 19:21:37 UTC
Teamosil wrote:
Ingvar Angst wrote:
"Normal" tax was 2 or 3 K for a shipment of P2 goods up, half that to import to a different planet for further processing, and another small tax to export processed goods. Now?

5000 Precious metals... 617K or so in taxes. Importing them to the next planet brings the taxes to over a million, with comparable taxes on other imported goods, meaning something like robotics, which requires four P2 items, has already been hit for 4M in taxes just to consolidate 5K of each item. Then you're hit again on the refined products you're exporting. We've gone, without exaggerating, from around 10K to millions of isk in taxes for something that provides little to no benefit to the game, and absolutely no benefit to wormhole existance. It's pure cost, pure expense. No added risk, no added rewards.


You don't understand. The prices of the goods you produce went way up prior to the patch to take the new expense into account. The prices you can sell the stuff for is not fixed, it fluctuates based on how much it costs to make the stuff, how much of a pita it is, etc. So if everybody's costs go up X ISK, the price goes up X too. But in a wormhole you at least have the option to avoid the tax increase and make the usual profits PLUS the amount that the taxes are costing other players.


Most of what's produced, POS fuel, remains in the wormhole. Some excess will eventually get out to market, sure, and any non-fuels you may have going as well, but the majority remains in the hole and therefore is exempt from your line of reasoning. This is why this is pretty much simply a useless expense.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Teamosil
Good Time Family Band Solution
#234 - 2011-11-30 19:25:29 UTC
Ingvar Angst wrote:
Most of what's produced, POS fuel, remains in the wormhole. Some excess will eventually get out to market, sure, and any non-fuels you may have going as well, but the majority remains in the hole and therefore is exempt from your line of reasoning. This is why this is pretty much simply a useless expense.


Ah ok. Yeah, fueling POS's got more expensive with crucible for sure. For everybody, not just folks doing it with PI.
Jita Alt666
#235 - 2011-11-30 19:25:56 UTC
Ingvar Angst wrote:
MNagy wrote:
As much as I do not like the new taxes within our wormhole, I agree with them.

It will force us to build some custom offices, and in turn other people to build some in their wormhole.

The 1 month or so of an extra tax till we get all our planets setup is nothing.

A little growing pain here and there, but what a great patch this was. The game looks amazing, and there were lots of adjustments everywhere.





How does it help you? Seriously, how do these PCOs help you in any way, shape or form in your alleged wormhole? Eight planets, that's about a billion or so spent if you make your own gantries, much more if you buy them. For what value? What gain?


1. That you run your pos for free instead of paying the tax passed on to you by empire producers
2. That you horde piles of tax free product and when that wh mysteriously opens close to an empire hub you jump out a frieighter load of the stuff for a quick injection of massive profit.
Anela Cistine
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#236 - 2011-11-30 19:29:22 UTC
Ingvar Angst wrote:
Teamosil wrote:
Anela Cistine wrote:
Ingvar Angst wrote:
So, I say again (respectfully), bullcrap. There's no risk/reward being added by these damnable contraptions. Just unnecessary and ill-thought out expense. And like I stated, these things really show their true worthlessness in wormholes, where the couple K in exports you'll save with 0% tax settings won't recoup the cost of these abominations for months (or longer). Just wasted isk. No added risk/reward.


Don't think of it as an added expense. Think of it as the normal expense, and the absurdly low cost of doing business before now was an introductory sale which has now ended.


Don't even think of it as an expense. It's a profitable long term investment. The PI prices will likely balance out based on the cost of high sec PI, so that means with the tax priced in. If you don't build a POCO in a wormhole, you'll be making normal profits. If you build one and evade the tax, you'll make normal profits + the tax.


"Normal" tax was 2 or 3 K for a shipment of P2 goods up, half that to import to a different planet for further processing, and another small tax to export processed goods. Now?

5000 Precious metals... 617K or so in taxes. Importing them to the next planet brings the taxes to over a million, with comparable taxes on other imported goods, meaning something like robotics, which requires four P2 items, has already been hit for 4M in taxes just to consolidate 5K of each item. Then you're hit again on the refined products you're exporting. We've gone, without exaggerating, from around 10K to millions of isk in taxes for something that provides little to no benefit to the game, and absolutely no benefit to wormhole existance. It's pure cost, pure expense. No added risk, no added rewards.



The old nothing cost wasn't a "normal" price, it was a sale. The price was always going to go way up, everyone knew that from the beginning. If it wasn't an export tax, it would have been a "fuel" cost to pay your colony workers and maintain your robots. The low, low initial cost was a fire sale to encourage people to try out PI nearly for free, and cushion the transition from NPC seeded goods to player produced goods.

If you believe that PI is no longer worthwhile for your situation, then buy POS fuel off the market. Just like you used to before PI was introduced. It seems to me that the new, still very cheap, PI will be better for most folks in wormholes than no PI at all.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#237 - 2011-11-30 19:32:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Ingvar Angst wrote:
Teamosil wrote:
Ingvar Angst wrote:
"Normal" tax was 2 or 3 K for a shipment of P2 goods up, half that to import to a different planet for further processing, and another small tax to export processed goods. Now?

5000 Precious metals... 617K or so in taxes. Importing them to the next planet brings the taxes to over a million, with comparable taxes on other imported goods, meaning something like robotics, which requires four P2 items, has already been hit for 4M in taxes just to consolidate 5K of each item. Then you're hit again on the refined products you're exporting. We've gone, without exaggerating, from around 10K to millions of isk in taxes for something that provides little to no benefit to the game, and absolutely no benefit to wormhole existance. It's pure cost, pure expense. No added risk, no added rewards.


You don't understand. The prices of the goods you produce went way up prior to the patch to take the new expense into account. The prices you can sell the stuff for is not fixed, it fluctuates based on how much it costs to make the stuff, how much of a pita it is, etc. So if everybody's costs go up X ISK, the price goes up X too. But in a wormhole you at least have the option to avoid the tax increase and make the usual profits PLUS the amount that the taxes are costing other players.


Most of what's produced, POS fuel, remains in the wormhole. Some excess will eventually get out to market, sure, and any non-fuels you may have going as well, but the majority remains in the hole and therefore is exempt from your line of reasoning. This is why this is pretty much simply a useless expense.





I always enjoy your posts, but are going to have to pick an argument and stick with it.

Either the tax rate is a huge amount of money you can't aford to lose... or...

the tax rate savings is too low to pay off the expense of a POCO in a reasonable amount of time.

One or the other, you can't argue both ways and maintain credibility.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#238 - 2011-11-30 19:40:33 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
Ingvar Angst wrote:

Most of what's produced, POS fuel, remains in the wormhole. Some excess will eventually get out to market, sure, and any non-fuels you may have going as well, but the majority remains in the hole and therefore is exempt from your line of reasoning. This is why this is pretty much simply a useless expense.





I always enjoy your posts, but are going to have to pick an argument and stick with it.

Either the tax rate is a huge amount of money you can't aford to lose... or...

the tax rate savings is too low to pay off the expense of a POCO in a reasonable amount of time.

One or the other, you can't argue both ways and maintain credibility.


Ugh... I must have been unclear. Apologies there.

Stick with the tax rate being too high. The thing is, there won't be much if any recoupment in wormholes because, let's face it, having the tax rate at anything higher than zero percent is simply screwing your corp members or alliance members. Even 1% with these new calculations are a marked increase in taxes. So it's not that the taxes are too low to recoup the expense, it's that you're not going to be screwing your own people to do that. Well... some may, good luck to their future as a corp, but that's a different issue.

The point stands, the PCOs are purely (regarding wormholes for sure) a worthless, unneeded and unnecessary added expense with no actual benefits being realized from the inhabitants. Even with a zero tax, it would be many, many months before the tax savings would ever catch up to the expense, especially when you consider the original taxes that were being paid, which is what the comparison is and should be based upon.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Linka Romanov
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#239 - 2011-11-30 19:48:04 UTC
Ingvar Angst wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
Ingvar Angst wrote:

Most of what's produced, POS fuel, remains in the wormhole. Some excess will eventually get out to market, sure, and any non-fuels you may have going as well, but the majority remains in the hole and therefore is exempt from your line of reasoning. This is why this is pretty much simply a useless expense.





I always enjoy your posts, but are going to have to pick an argument and stick with it.

Either the tax rate is a huge amount of money you can't aford to lose... or...

the tax rate savings is too low to pay off the expense of a POCO in a reasonable amount of time.

One or the other, you can't argue both ways and maintain credibility.


Ugh... I must have been unclear. Apologies there.

Stick with the tax rate being too high. The thing is, there won't be much if any recoupment in wormholes because, let's face it, having the tax rate at anything higher than zero percent is simply screwing your corp members or alliance members. Even 1% with these new calculations are a marked increase in taxes. So it's not that the taxes are too low to recoup the expense, it's that you're not going to be screwing your own people to do that. Well... some may, good luck to their future as a corp, but that's a different issue.

The point stands, the PCOs are purely (regarding wormholes for sure) a worthless, unneeded and unnecessary added expense with no actual benefits being realized from the inhabitants. Even with a zero tax, it would be many, many months before the tax savings would ever catch up to the expense, especially when you consider the original taxes that were being paid, which is what the comparison is and should be based upon.


You just said it yourself: there is a benefit to owning your own POCO, because you can give yourself and your corporation favorable tax rates. This means there is now a benefit to owning space, because it gives you a competitive advantage against users who have to pay CONCORD taxes in highsec. This drives conflict, and introduces a new "Landlord" playstyle that didn't exist previously.

It sounds like you mostly live in a wormhole, meaning the tax change will impact you even less than the vast majority of players, because it's very unlikely someone is going to be bothered to get together a fleet, probe out your hole, reinforce your POCO, sit around for 24 hours+, and then nuke it after reinforced. This allows you to effectively get your PI goods 10% or more cheaper than the rest of the player base, because you can set your own taxes to 0%, providing you with a sizeable discount to your POS costs.

The fact that you are so bothered by the new taxes means that the developers have done an adequate job of incentivizing the use of the new POCOs. If taxes were the pittance they were previously, no one would bother with the hassle of setting up a POCO, and we would have a shallower game as a result.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#240 - 2011-11-30 19:53:22 UTC
Ingvar Angst wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
Ingvar Angst wrote:

Most of what's produced, POS fuel, remains in the wormhole. Some excess will eventually get out to market, sure, and any non-fuels you may have going as well, but the majority remains in the hole and therefore is exempt from your line of reasoning. This is why this is pretty much simply a useless expense.





I always enjoy your posts, but are going to have to pick an argument and stick with it.

Either the tax rate is a huge amount of money you can't aford to lose... or...

the tax rate savings is too low to pay off the expense of a POCO in a reasonable amount of time.

One or the other, you can't argue both ways and maintain credibility.


Ugh... I must have been unclear. Apologies there.

Stick with the tax rate being too high. The thing is, there won't be much if any recoupment in wormholes because, let's face it, having the tax rate at anything higher than zero percent is simply screwing your corp members or alliance members. Even 1% with these new calculations are a marked increase in taxes. So it's not that the taxes are too low to recoup the expense, it's that you're not going to be screwing your own people to do that. Well... some may, good luck to their future as a corp, but that's a different issue.

The point stands, the PCOs are purely (regarding wormholes for sure) a worthless, unneeded and unnecessary added expense with no actual benefits being realized from the inhabitants. Even with a zero tax, it would be many, many months before the tax savings would ever catch up to the expense, especially when you consider the original taxes that were being paid, which is what the comparison is and should be based upon.


No apologies needed, I may have misunderstood your point.

A couple of things to consider.

Taxing your corp/alliance to defray the cost of infrastructure that benefits them is not a sin.

Different corps in an alliance can make internal decisions on who puts the POCO on which planets, thereby fairly splitting the costs involved.

The tax rate can be lowered again after the POCO has paid for itself.

You can't base your comparisons on past taxes/prices. Prices for the goods produced will raise to compensate due to normal market pressures. Relative income remains the same for those goods after taxes, and quite possibly higher.

The higher the tax rate is in Empire, the greater the benefit to people that own their own POCO's.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.