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PI Taxes?

First post
Author
Andrea Roche
State War Academy
Caldari State
#181 - 2011-11-30 12:30:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Andrea Roche
Bald move CCP.
This is gonna have a bad effect in eve guaranteed.Evil specially in regions where these planet stuff aint that good or worth to buy custom office. I cant blaim anyone not wanting to buy it....its a huge investment that will only return the investment 2 years down the line..
bad bad move
Mindnut
Rockbiter Industries
#182 - 2011-11-30 12:47:15 UTC
Hi all,

I've been running a big (high sec) PI operation for a year now.

I'm using all 9 toons (3 accounts) managing 46 planets to manufacture mainly robotics and some other stuff

Yesterday I paid over 6 mil ISK for something that used to cost me around 500k ???
WTH were you thinking CCP?

I made over 1,5 bil per a month and I'm not going to spent 500 mil of that every month on stupid tax
I'm really considering giving up on PI =(

This is plain ****


Today - The Power of Two Tomorrow - 2 Hulks and an Orca

Darod Zyree
Doomheim
#183 - 2011-11-30 12:50:43 UTC
Mindnut wrote:
Hi all,

I've been running a big (high sec) PI operation for a year now.

I'm using all 9 toons (3 accounts) managing 46 planets to manufacture mainly robotics and some other stuff

Yesterday I paid over 6 mil ISK for something that used to cost me around 500k ???
WTH were you thinking CCP?

I made over 1,5 bil per a month and I'm not going to spent 500 mil of that every month on stupid tax
I'm really considering giving up on PI =(

This is plain ****



Thank you for giving up on your oh so safe PI in highsec.

I for one welcome my increased income due to increasing market sell prices :)
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#184 - 2011-11-30 12:50:59 UTC
So instead of making 1.5b you'd make 1b (using old prices, I assume, not the new prices), and thus you're considering giving up on PI?

Ok, guy. I guess spending 5-10 minutes pr day to make a cool billion is ~too much work~. vOv

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat

Tenchi Sal
White Knights of Equestria
#185 - 2011-11-30 12:54:49 UTC
it is. people just want things fed to them without actually doing anything. im glad for the tax increase, the isk pools is just getting larger and larger. more isk sinks need to be placed in.
Prince Kobol
#186 - 2011-11-30 12:56:45 UTC
I'm just glad I went and brought a shed load of P4 products the second CCP released information about POCO's.

Checking the prices at Jita just before DT and I have already doubled my isk :)

As for the increase in tax.. all that will happen in the coming weeks will be the value of each PI product will raise to absorb the tax increase.

So the only result will be it will cost more to upkeep your PoS.

The way I look at it is that if your PoS is not generating enough isk to counter the raise in fuel costs (its not like it 100's of millions per month) then you shouldn't have a PoS to begin with Big smile
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#187 - 2011-11-30 13:00:24 UTC
Jim Hooknose wrote:
Was going to keep Eve subbed while I played another mmo, but with the changes to PI, I won't be.

Thanks CCP for making this decision easier and saving me $45 a month.



Ho w8, are you talking about the old PI with witch you can buy plex and play for free??

Your $45 ?? hahahaha, I'd say CCP won $45

Yes go away please this game will be better without scrubs, thxbye
Urgg Boolean
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#188 - 2011-11-30 13:11:48 UTC
Andrea Roche wrote:
Bald move CCP.
This is gonna have a bad effect in eve guaranteed.Evil specially in regions where these planet stuff aint that good or worth to buy custom office. I cant blaim anyone not wanting to buy it....its a huge investment that will only return the investment 2 years down the line..
bad bad move

Agreed. It seems like this change benefits all the protected null sec dwellers and reams HI/LO sec PI farmers. POCOs are very expensive, and you need for every planet you farm. Why put up an array of POCOs when it is highly likely they will get shot down? It seems that a solo player and/or small corp cannot cost effectively defend their installations - you could lose a lot of ISk really fast if you get harrassed by PKs (POCO Killers). If there is strategy to defend them, I'd sure like to know it. As it seems right now, this is just another way of ensuring that the big wealthy corps stay wealthy and solo players/small corps can suck hind tit.
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#189 - 2011-11-30 13:20:49 UTC
Ptraci wrote:
Vio Geraci wrote:


It's not inflation, it's price increases. There's quite a difference, there.


in·fla·tion [in-fley-shuhn] noun
1. Economics . a persistent, substantial rise in the general level of prices related to an increase in the volume of money and resulting in the loss of value of currency ( opposed to deflation).

Derp. No, it's not inflation. It's price increases. Hey are you American by any chance?


While I understand your concerns I have to call you attention about something you, me or every one else will never be able to make "some" understand.

Economy only knows positive numbers witch means "good, health, hapiness' while every one and his cat knows it's totally untrue since the good part profits only to "some" and this apply s also IG, when the same economy stagnates for whatever reason they call it "crisis" because those "some" are getting negative numbers.

People will probably understand some day, and by the hard way, that economy model has we know it let it be irl or ig is utopia just like base the biggest part of our rl economy around oil, yes we're dumb enough to base our economy on something that is going to clearly disappear, we know it but we keep running the numbers, isn't this strange?
Economy has we know it can't keep positive numbers all the time, it's physically impossible because there's no other way to keep that utopia then by printing money related to something that clearly doesn't physically exist.

The bad news irl is that the only way to restart it from the scratch and give it a new cycle you only have to create massive wars and destruction witch every economist will tell you just like IG and with the same lack of empathy "it's good for economy", the good news is that in eve it's just a game and if it becomes unplayable dev's can make sort those negative numbers don't affect you, me, or other players but at the end the "same" will be those who still profit more than all others.

It's just a game, if somehow print isk from 0 is needed to keep it rolling nothing easier for dev's than move some numbers, it's only a matter of time.
Boris Ginnungagap
Doomheim
#190 - 2011-11-30 13:22:39 UTC
T2 BPO lottery ended too.

There are no ISK printing machines.
Eyeama Spy
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#191 - 2011-11-30 13:31:31 UTC
These tax rates have obviously been set to intice peeps to set up null/low sec customs offices. Well good luck with that, if PL are so desperate for a km that they will drop 10 titans plus to many supercaps to count just to get a hurricane km in KBP, you think they wont pop customs offices just for the lols...its not like they even have to buy ammo. PI materialsd are going to get real expensive realy quickly.

So if you going to want to do PI, grab soveriginty, wait untill you can cynojam the system, then maybe , just maybe. Of course if your the goons or Test and have some orginization skills, you can set up alliance level PI and export it to jita, in 6 months you'll have an income stream greater then tech moons.
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
#192 - 2011-11-30 13:40:04 UTC

I know its going to be painful to people who have gotten used to a certain level of risk-free profit but really this is exactly the kind of thing Eve Online needs to become dynamic again. Risk/reward for outfits willing to take the step of moving their operations to lowsec.

For the record its highly likely my corporation will be operating zero % (or extremely low rate) customs offices in lowsec (for everyone friends, neutrals, enemies) to represent our roleplay ideology as free trade anarchists.

We love the idea of encouraging settlement in lowsec and are happy for any small outfits / individuals making use of the facilties for free (tiny tax rates)

Having the hisec tax set high gives us a better chance to persuade people to make the jump.
Hence this is a good change.

The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom

Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#193 - 2011-11-30 13:49:41 UTC
Jade Constantine wrote:

I know its going to be painful to people who have gotten used to a certain level of risk-free profit but really this is exactly the kind of thing Eve Online needs to become dynamic again. Risk/reward for outfits willing to take the step of moving their operations to lowsec.

For the record its highly likely my corporation will be operating zero % (or extremely low rate) customs offices in lowsec (for everyone friends, neutrals, enemies) to represent our roleplay ideology as free trade anarchists.

We love the idea of encouraging settlement in lowsec and are happy for any small outfits / individuals making use of the facilties for free (tiny tax rates)

Having the hisec tax set high gives us a better chance to persuade people to make the jump.
Hence this is a good change.


Bullcrap. There's no added risk/reward with these PCOs at all. It's nothing but added expenses. People won't waste their time in lowsec defending these useless structures... if they can't keep one up they'll simply stop wasting their time with PI. It's even more useless in wormhole space... I don't know what the hell Nullabor was thinking even including them in wormholes. All they are are added, useless expenses, wasted isk. With these dumbassed tax rates we'll be setting them to 0% in hole in order to keep from screwing over corp and alliance folks and pretty much shutting the door on any of those mythical ninja-WH-PI people I hear of. Even a 1% tax at the new figures is more than what was being paid prior, so it's not worth having one at all when your own allies are going to be the only ones affected.

This is one change that if it went away wouldn't be missed, aside from the blowhards and griefers that is.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.

Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
#194 - 2011-11-30 13:56:20 UTC
Ingvar Angst wrote:
Jade Constantine wrote:

I know its going to be painful to people who have gotten used to a certain level of risk-free profit but really this is exactly the kind of thing Eve Online needs to become dynamic again. Risk/reward for outfits willing to take the step of moving their operations to lowsec.

For the record its highly likely my corporation will be operating zero % (or extremely low rate) customs offices in lowsec (for everyone friends, neutrals, enemies) to represent our roleplay ideology as free trade anarchists.

We love the idea of encouraging settlement in lowsec and are happy for any small outfits / individuals making use of the facilties for free (tiny tax rates)

Having the hisec tax set high gives us a better chance to persuade people to make the jump.
Hence this is a good change.


Bullcrap. There's no added risk/reward with these PCOs at all. It's nothing but added expenses. People won't waste their time in lowsec defending these useless structures... if they can't keep one up they'll simply stop wasting their time with PI. It's even more useless in wormhole space... I don't know what the hell Nullabor was thinking even including them in wormholes. All they are are added, useless expenses, wasted isk. With these dumbassed tax rates we'll be setting them to 0% in hole in order to keep from screwing over corp and alliance folks and pretty much shutting the door on any of those mythical ninja-WH-PI people I hear of. Even a 1% tax at the new figures is more than what was being paid prior, so it's not worth having one at all when your own allies are going to be the only ones affected.

This is one change that if it went away wouldn't be missed, aside from the blowhards and griefers that is.


Excuse me.
Take a breath and consider.

I've told you in the post above that my corp intends to put up these offices for low or non existant tax rates. We want to do that because we want to attract trade to lowsec. We're not asking you (or other loners) to put up offices and take responsibility for protecting them.

This change is CCP giving us (in star fraction) a tool to encourage activity in lowsec systems where we operate. Please take off the blinkers and realise this is a multiplayer game and the game dynamics go further than your own narrow self interest Ingvar Angst.

(and in future address me with a civil tongue when I post respectfully on an issue like this)

The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom

Via Shivon
#195 - 2011-11-30 14:31:27 UTC
Prince Kobol wrote:
I'm just glad I went and brought a shed load of P4 products the second CCP released information about POCO's.

Checking the prices at Jita just before DT and I have already doubled my isk :)
]



you are my hero .... not Oops
Eyup Mi'duck
Doomheim
#196 - 2011-11-30 14:35:36 UTC
Jade Constantine wrote:
...Please take off the blinkers and realise this is a multiplayer game and the game dynamics go further than your own narrow self interest...


Jade, count the number of times you used the phrase 'we want...'. You know the saying about people in glass houses?

Blink

I understand what you are saying but methinks you will find yourself in the minority on this subject.

I am me.         I am not you.     I have my own thoughts.     I am very happy with this situation.

Prince Kobol
#197 - 2011-11-30 14:42:14 UTC
Via Shivon wrote:
Prince Kobol wrote:
I'm just glad I went and brought a shed load of P4 products the second CCP released information about POCO's.

Checking the prices at Jita just before DT and I have already doubled my isk :)
]



you are my hero .... not Oops


I would of thought with all that inside info your chairman has you lot would of done the same...

Sorry did I say that out loud, of course your chairman would never ever ever use inside information to make isk.. I apologise :)
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#198 - 2011-11-30 14:45:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Ingvar Angst
Jade Constantine wrote:
Ingvar Angst wrote:
Bullcrap. There's no added risk/reward with these PCOs at all. It's nothing but added expenses. People won't waste their time in lowsec defending these useless structures... if they can't keep one up they'll simply stop wasting their time with PI. It's even more useless in wormhole space... I don't know what the hell Nullabor was thinking even including them in wormholes. All they are are added, useless expenses, wasted isk. With these dumbassed tax rates we'll be setting them to 0% in hole in order to keep from screwing over corp and alliance folks and pretty much shutting the door on any of those mythical ninja-WH-PI people I hear of. Even a 1% tax at the new figures is more than what was being paid prior, so it's not worth having one at all when your own allies are going to be the only ones affected.

This is one change that if it went away wouldn't be missed, aside from the blowhards and griefers that is.


Excuse me.
Take a breath and consider.

I've told you in the post above that my corp intends to put up these offices for low or non existant tax rates. We want to do that because we want to attract trade to lowsec. We're not asking you (or other loners) to put up offices and take responsibility for protecting them.

This change is CCP giving us (in star fraction) a tool to encourage activity in lowsec systems where we operate. Please take off the blinkers and realise this is a multiplayer game and the game dynamics go further than your own narrow self interest Ingvar Angst.

(and in future address me with a civil tongue when I post respectfully on an issue like this)



So basically... you're contradicting yourself. There's still no risk/reward, even with your magnanimouos gestures of little to no taxes. Remember... taxes were already quite low prior to PCOs. Did the already extremely low taxes inspire people to do PI in lowsec?

Nope.

All you're doing is putting up structures so that people that already chose to do PI in low can continue to do so relatively unaffected. People with no interest in low sec will continue to have no interest in low sec... maintaining the status quo hardly inspires the populace.

So, I say again (respectfully), bullcrap. There's no risk/reward being added by these damnable contraptions. Just unnecessary and ill-thought out expense. And like I stated, these things really show their true worthlessness in wormholes, where the couple K in exports you'll save with 0% tax settings won't recoup the cost of these abominations for months (or longer). Just wasted isk. No added risk/reward.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.

Jowen Datloran
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#199 - 2011-11-30 15:01:49 UTC
I disagree, Jade.

True, PI could have used more player generated conflict but I still think the best approach would have been to make that conflict on the planets instead of coating PI with completely different mechanics and game play. The core PI mechanics still consists of simplistic clicking and moving dots around and does in no way match the engaging game play that was presented at the fan fest prior to PIs introduction.

Further, that CCP has to so strongly manipulate the market to make POCOs a viable game play speak tons about how little POCOs add to the game by themselves. As example, CCP has not needed to increase construction prices of all tier 1 and 2 battlecruisers for people to become interested in buying a tier 3. And synth booster production? Well, that game play element has been completely sacrificed for the sake of POCOs. While the increased PI costs can mostly be directed to increased prices for the final products, there is no way people will buy these boosters at all now. I find it really hard to support introduction of new game mechanics when they come at the direct cost of others when there are so many other things CCP could have been improving upon.

Finally, the POCO mechanics support the "numbers=win" and "nap feast" game play types that tire many people in zero sec. I am a firm opponent of promoting these game play types any more than necessary.

Mr. Science & Trade Institute, EVE Online Lorebook 

pmchem
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#200 - 2011-11-30 15:04:26 UTC
Jowen Datloran wrote:

True, PI could have used more player generated conflict but I still think the best approach would have been to make that conflict on the planets instead of coating PI with completely different mechanics and game play.


Planets and POCOs need to be very economically important to Eve players for people to fight over them... in DUST 514. These tax changes are way overdue and will be a good thing for the game long-term.

Taxes were always there, now people actually notice them. Adjust your spreadsheets.

https://twitter.com/pmchem/ || http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/community-spotlight-garpa/ || Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal