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God has destroyed the Jove. How just is our God!
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Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#41 - 2014-12-11 20:06:24 UTC
Samira Kernher wrote:
Because the commander of the fleet, whose name I will not say, had conspired with the Jove. That kind of treason.


Oh! Treasony treason! That kind. Fair enough.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Deitra Vess
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#42 - 2014-12-11 20:32:00 UTC
Samira Kernher wrote:
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
God doesn't need ****-all from people. He's all-powerful. He can do whatever he damn well pleases and he sure as hell doesn't need any human's help to do anything.


No, He doesn't.

But just because you can do your child's homework, does that mean you should do it for them? Children have to be given the opportunity to develop on their own, with your support and guidance but not with you doing everything for them just because you can.


But If we were considered gods children, wouldn't he step in to help bring us to "the right path" and thus make it so that nothing that did happen happen? Or is it more like testing the faithful?
Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#43 - 2014-12-11 20:50:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Samira Kernher
He is, but he's doing it through his Chosen. His Chosen, just like the Unborn, have need to grow and develop, and they cannot do that if God is doing their work for them. The Unborn must learn to love God again, and the Chosen must learn how to be teachers, guides, and leaders.

To put it in a way more understandable for nonbelievers: God delegates.

God could just wave a figurative hand and have everyone worship Him again. But that teaches nothing, and it takes away all potential for growth from His creations. This is why Amarr must also avoid falling to the temptation of TCMCs, for they deny that same potential for growth. Like God, we have the capability to easily force all to worship Him. And like God, we should refrain from taking this easy path because it does not truly teach anyone.
Evi Polevhia
Phoenix Naval Operations
Phoenix Naval Systems
#44 - 2014-12-11 21:15:55 UTC
Cannot God just also wave a hand and have us all taught exactly what we need to rather than have us do it slowly, imperfectly, and incompletely?
Nauplius
Hoi Andrapodistai
#45 - 2014-12-11 21:17:12 UTC
The interpretation of apparent setbacks or defeats for God and his people that Samira Kernher has provided is a common interpretation and may even be the mainstream interpretation. But it is not the only interpretation.

I believe that God does foreordain everything, including the treachery of Vak'Atioth. What people seem to consistently misunderstand is that God may be more glorified by a short term defeat that makes his long term victory all the more magnificent than by a mere immediate victory. A short term defeat for his people may even occur when they have obeyed God's own commandments in every way — that is the difference between the revealed will of God and the hidden will of God. God will be glorified in the end and he has no obligation to advance his Chosen people at every moment of every day; we Chosen can be confident, though, that even the hidden will of God is not at variance with God's divine attributes of perfect justice, perfect goodness, and so on, and thus we can be confident of our ultimate victory.

Note that my interpretation does not require humans to have free will and does not require that "potential growth" be a positive moral value.
Jukko Riis
Doomheim
#46 - 2014-12-11 21:20:44 UTC
Nauplius wrote:


Note that my interpretation does not require humans to have free will and does not require that "potential growth" be a positive moral value.



If I have no free will, how can I be morally culpable for my actions?

BRCE: Mission Statement!
Tyrel Toov
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#47 - 2014-12-11 21:25:42 UTC
Nauplius wrote:

Note that my interpretation does not require humans to have free will and does not require that "potential growth" be a positive moral value.

Not to worry, Naups. We long since stopped expecting positive moral values out of you. You needn't worry about clearing that up. Your evil reputation remains intact.

I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.
Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#48 - 2014-12-11 21:28:48 UTC
Evi Polevhia wrote:
Cannot God just also wave a hand and have us all taught exactly what we need to rather than have us do it slowly, imperfectly, and incompletely?


Read my previous posts.

Though I don't expect a Sansha supporter to understand it. You prefer to deny the potential for growth and the wisdom obtained from overcoming hardship.
Deitra Vess
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#49 - 2014-12-11 23:49:51 UTC
Samira Kernher wrote:
He is, but he's doing it through his Chosen. His Chosen, just like the Unborn, have need to grow and develop, and they cannot do that if God is doing their work for them. The Unborn must learn to love God again, and the Chosen must learn how to be teachers, guides, and leaders.

To put it in a way more understandable for nonbelievers: God delegates.

God could just wave a figurative hand and have everyone worship Him again. But that teaches nothing, and it takes away all potential for growth from His creations. This is why Amarr must also avoid falling to the temptation of TCMCs, for they deny that same potential for growth. Like God, we have the capability to easily force all to worship Him. And like God, we should refrain from taking this easy path because it does not truly teach anyone.


I guess don't take this the wrong way, but does he not value his creations? I would think something he took pride in he wouldn't subjugate to trials, slavery, mass genocide of a planet? I mean maybe that's just the methods man created but even still..... Isn't that a little much? While yes he could teach whatever lesson without any effort but chooses to have us learn for ourselves, but isn't there some limit to it? Sorry, It just doesn't make that much sense to me.
Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#50 - 2014-12-12 00:33:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Samira Kernher
Just because you value something doesn't mean you can or should always be soft to it. Do you not discipline your child if they have done wrong? Do you not make your friend go through rehab if they're an addict? It is better to treat someone as they need, than to treat them as they want. Sometimes hurting someone is the only way to make them become a better person.

Trials are good. Servitude is good. We learn from these things, we become stronger and wiser for having endured them. The road to Heaven is paved with tribulation. God values most those who prove that they are worthy of being valued.

There are limits, of course. But it is up us to discover those limits, and it is up to us to resist the temptation to cross them when they are found. God will guide us and give us strength, He will help us know right from wrong, but we have to first choose to take His hand.
Nauplius
Hoi Andrapodistai
#51 - 2014-12-12 02:47:51 UTC
Deitra Vess wrote:

I guess don't take this the wrong way, but does he not value his creations?


No. God is infinity of every emotion, including cruelty and wrath, and he has created certain beings upon whom he directs those two emotions. I believe that I have made abundantly clear in my preaching just who those beings are.
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#52 - 2014-12-12 02:51:17 UTC
Nauplius wrote:
Normal irrelevant Nauplius things

Nobody cares. Get out of the thread.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Gwen Ikiryo
Alexylva Paradox
#53 - 2014-12-12 03:16:10 UTC
Samira Kernher wrote:
Because the commander of the fleet, whose name I will not say, had conspired with the Jove. That kind of treason.


There is frail historical evidence at best to support this claim, miss Kernher.
Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#54 - 2014-12-12 03:22:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Elmund Egivand
Samira Kernher wrote:
Just because you value something doesn't mean you can or should always be soft to it. Do you not discipline your child if they have done wrong? Do you not make your friend go through rehab if they're an addict? It is better to treat someone as they need, than to treat them as they want. Sometimes hurting someone is the only way to make them become a better person.

Trials are good. Servitude is good. We learn from these things, we become stronger and wiser for having endured them. The road to Heaven is paved with tribulation. God values most those who prove that they are worthy of being valued.

There are limits, of course. But it is up us to discover those limits, and it is up to us to resist the temptation to cross them when they are found. God will guide us and give us strength, He will help us know right from wrong, but we have to first choose to take His hand.


In other words, God embodies tough love.

...Fair enough, I guess. I can agree with His style of parenthood. Us Matari are in the habit of making our children toil, experience hardship and face challenges so that they may grow to be mature adults, able to adapt and survive in whatever situation we find ourselves in, and to always hold an unyielding core of values even in the face of duress (whether it works is another matter altogether). If I disagree with how your God does His work, I would make myself a hypocrite.

Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Nauplius wrote:
Normal irrelevant Nauplius things

Nobody cares. Get out of the thread.


But it was Nauplius' thread to begin with.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#55 - 2014-12-12 03:26:25 UTC
Elmund Egivand wrote:
But it was Nauplius' thread to begin with.

You're a very observant fellow! Given that keen insight of yours, would you like to guess how high this factoid rates on my "give a damn" scale?

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Tyrel Toov
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#56 - 2014-12-12 03:31:15 UTC
Elmund Egivand wrote:

But it was Nauplius' thread to begin with.

not anymore

I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.
Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#57 - 2014-12-12 04:02:59 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Elmund Egivand wrote:
But it was Nauplius' thread to begin with.

You're a very observant fellow! Given that keen insight of yours, would you like to guess how high this factoid rates on my "give a damn" scale?


I say at the 0 mark.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#58 - 2014-12-12 04:08:42 UTC
Gwen Ikiryo wrote:
Samira Kernher wrote:
Because the commander of the fleet, whose name I will not say, had conspired with the Jove. That kind of treason.


There is frail historical evidence at best to support this claim, miss Kernher.


His Holiness the late Heideran VII, may he be at peace with God in Heaven, speaks rather candidly about the traitor's actions in the Pax Amarria.
Evi Polevhia
Phoenix Naval Operations
Phoenix Naval Systems
#59 - 2014-12-12 12:20:48 UTC
Samira Kernher wrote:
Evi Polevhia wrote:
Cannot God just also wave a hand and have us all taught exactly what we need to rather than have us do it slowly, imperfectly, and incompletely?


Read my previous posts.

Though I don't expect a Sansha supporter to understand it. You prefer to deny the potential for growth and the wisdom obtained from overcoming hardship.

If you say so, Little Monster. Just one correction. The potential for growth isn't denied in Nation. It is the whole reason for Nation. And I would say Nation has learned much from overcoming hardship. What with your attempted genocide and all.
Ashlar Vellum
Esquire Armaments
#60 - 2014-12-12 12:44:11 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Ashlar Vellum wrote:
If someone didn't get caught in restricted area near a mass murder there wouldn't be any kind of fleet at all.

Here's the straight up truth that some Amarrians apparently can't handle.

All you have are suspicions - century old suspicions, at this point - that some Jove were in proximity to an area where some HIgh Priests were killed. Over this potentially imagined slight, you decided you were going to enslave their entire race, and so invaded their sovereign territory - territory that did not in any conceivable way belong to you - with a war fleet that had no other intention than to destroy Jovian assets. They responded with a fleet of their own and handed you a crushing, humiliating defeat after which you ran home with your tail between your legs - and then lost the Minmatar Republic in a spate of equally crushing, humiliating defeats.

And?
Also every complete and overwhelming victory against technically inferior opponent forces victor to retreat back to his own space, blow up a gate behind and cut off almost all communication with others. So, you know just in case such great victory won't happen again. Yeah right, great victory indeed.

Andreus Ixiris wrote:

Now, I don't personally believe your god exists, but if he does, by word of your scriptures he's omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent. By definition, all things happen according to his will, and contrariwise nothing happens that he does not will. Therefore, if your god does truly exist, he willed Vak'Atioth and the events both leading to and happening as a consequence of it - he willed the death of the High Priests, he willed the crushing defeat at Vak'Atioth and he willed the end of the Minmatar occupation and the birth of the Republic. If that is true, the Jove were just as much his agents in this as anyone else. Unwittingly or otherwise, they delivered a message from your god. I'm not a believer in your god so I can't tell you what it might be, but if I had to guess it'd be something about hubris and pride going before a fall.

So ... don't believe, can't tell and have nothing more than guesses. I'm all ears my gallente friend, please continue.

Samira Kernher wrote:

While there were reports of Jovian support of Matari insurgents prior to the Great Rebellion, those would hardly be the reason for our invasion. I have said before, and I will say again, we are not a passive nation that must invent flimsy justifications or claims of "simply defending ourselves" for war. We did not invade because the Jove may have been involved with the murder of a few priests or the destruction of the Impervious or anything else like that. They might have been factors encouraging it (among many others) but they were hardly the main reason for the attack.

The Amarr-Jove War started because it is our duty to Reclaim the universe under God. We sought to conquer the Jove Empire, not to avenge some comparatively minor slight. We failed in that, because we allowed our pride to blind us and traitors to lead us, and this is something we can feel only great shame for as we have failed both God and the Jovian people.

"few" and "minor slight", I see.
Apostle Taj Rukon was one of those "few" and as you put it yourself "minor slights", lieutenant.