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Dev blog: Physically Based Rendering and making EVE look "Real"

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Xindi Kraid
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#121 - 2014-12-11 08:29:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Xindi Kraid
Hey random ass question in case my memory is fragged:
Didn't Khanid ships (Vengance, Sacrelige, etc.) used to have a silver and metallic blue paintjob?

Under PBR it is silver and grey (i'd describe the color as graphite), but my mind is saying that's not quite right.
Nagarythe Tinurandir
Einheit X-6
#122 - 2014-12-11 09:31:22 UTC
Xindi Kraid wrote:
Hey random ass question in case my memory is fragged:
Didn't Khanid ships (Vengance, Sacrelige, etc.) used to have a silver and metallic blue paintjob?

Under PBR it is silver and grey (i'd describe the color as graphite), but my mind is saying that's not quite right.


I always thought their colors were silver and black, to oppose the gold&white of amarr ships.


Maybe it has already been answered, but I did not find it. Why does the ambient light of nebula shine through solid objects?
For example Jita 4-4 undock - the red minmatar nebulus illuminates all ships undocking, although it is behind the station. You even see the red glow through the station...
The bouncing light is pretty, but in such cases it urks me :-/
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#123 - 2014-12-11 12:14:37 UTC
Xindi Kraid wrote:
Hey random ass question in case my memory is fragged:
Didn't Khanid ships (Vengance, Sacrelige, etc.) used to have a silver and metallic blue paintjob?

Under PBR it is silver and grey (i'd describe the color as graphite), but my mind is saying that's not quite right.

Khanid are supposed to be Silver-very dark gray/black.

Why does the Ark look like a cheap Chinese plastic toy model? What is the reasoning behind removing its 2 different gold tones, which actually looked like solid gold plating, and replacing them with this uniform layer of gold foil on top of plastic surface?

Why do ships look flatter and less detailed than before?

Why was this feature released even though it is neither nearly finished nor polished nor are we remotely close to anything that requires it? Why is it not labeled Beta like the map?

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
marly cortez
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#124 - 2014-12-11 12:39:24 UTC
Dunno what you did but it severely impacted frame rates overall, plus whats with the aberrations and artifacts that keep appearing at random with structures, Bit disconcerting to see a portion of the structure suddenly split off and lag behind the rest of the movement on the screen.

Still don't liker the new ship renders, terms like xmas decorations and flat screen TV's are floating about, Vaga even on max settings looks flat and uninteresting now.

Humanity is the thin veneer that remains after you remove the baffled chimp.
Tarpedo
Incursionista
#125 - 2014-12-11 15:04:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Tarpedo
Can we get dark gold texture for Nightmare - like it was on Sisi ~4 weeks prior to this patch? With present color ship actually look like real pile of crap =(
Archetype 66
Perkone
Caldari State
#126 - 2014-12-11 16:06:54 UTC
It's really nice guys. GJ CCP
eliminator2
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#127 - 2014-12-11 19:39:52 UTC
the engine looks nice and i love it but some ships have lost that sexyness ie vindicator

but others have been made better for example the vargur looks amazing

just would like some ship colours to have remained the same
d0cTeR9
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#128 - 2014-12-11 20:32:09 UTC  |  Edited by: d0cTeR9
So what have we learned?

CCP works REALLY hard on the graphic side of EVE (Coming from someone who played beta-eve and first subbed to try it).
Some people need to upgrade their 5 year old computers and stop slowing down progress for other's.
With any change, here come the whiners...
Dominix still looks like a potato.

Of course this is a WIP, so do voice some legitimate concerns (i.e: Vindicator, Dominix, Pirate Camo) so that CCP can learn from this and work on it.

Been around since the beginning.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#129 - 2014-12-11 21:02:17 UTC
CCP Darwin wrote:
High uses PBR with dirt maps.

Medium uses PBR without dirt maps, which is a significant optimization but still retains the lighting model.

Low chucks the lighting model out the window for something entirely different (maybe Lambert shading with illumination clamped above zero? I haven't looked at the code) and reintroduces the dirt maps because even with them the rendering is faster than Medium or High.

Low's different lighting model, because it does away entirely with any shininess or reflections, will have more saturated colors, and it'll have the details from the dirt map.

If you like one look better than another, I absolutely encourage you to pick the one you like.

Any chance you guys might be able to come up with something different for medium? It really seems to be the red-headed stepchild of the three. For example, could you drop PBR for medium, include the dirt map and use the old settings under Phoebe?

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Kesthely
Mestana
#130 - 2014-12-11 22:23:29 UTC
First things first:

The new physical rendering looks awesome!

If you sense a but comming your correct.

While the physical rendering looks awesome, low to mid end pc's have quite a lot of trouble with the rendering. (my computer is about a year old and i already have problems) With the group i play with this has been the case for most players. And haveing to resort to optimize for performance or memory makes the switching to the new physical rendering, actually a downgrade in the aestethics for me.

Atm i can only warp about, without experiancing what feels like lag. With a reasonable amount of eye candy still active If several objects need to be rendered (missions/pvp/going to a tradehub) it feels like i'm trying to play the game on a 20 year old computer, while with the old rendering, i could pvp with every effect and full quality on.

I'll continue to try to tweak between aestethics and performance, but i feel like that person thats beeing shown lots of candy, and then is denied getting any!
Lil' Brudder Too
Pistols for Pandas
#131 - 2014-12-11 22:25:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Lil' Brudder Too
CCP Darwin wrote:

If you have to use Medium shader settings to get decent performance, you might want to try both Low and Medium to see which you prefer. Or, you may be able to get away with High if you change other settings.

Hope that helps a little bit.

I'm noticing a theme here....the only huge complaints about "medium" looking terribad seems to be based on just the Gallente hulls....

Maybe do to the fact that the "dirt map" all Gallente ships includes all the color minus the base green and the chrome layer. If you compare this to every other faction, the difference between Medium and High is nearly indistinguishable. It seems that it is just the gallente hulls that have this issue. Have you even considered this?

Instead of pulling out your soap box and telling all the dissidents to bugger off with their opinions (essentially that is your tone), why don't you take some time to see what the problem we are actually seeing is...

Gallente hulls need to be brought up to be comparable to the other factions. Every other faction essentially only loses the shiney reflection whilst stepping the graphics down from High to Medium to Low. Except for Gallente. Please don't make me take a pic of every ship in all three settings to show you, when you could do it yourself, by just simply looking at the ships.

Abaddon is a great example of the difference. Compare the Abaddon in all three shader settings...note the lack of change of actual color (just some dirt and details are added). Now do the same with the Megathron, the color changes between each one.

Abaddon/Mega compare

New Icon SiSi feedback thread that got wholly ignored!

An example of that a good ship icon set looks like.
CCP Darwin
C C P
C C P Alliance
#132 - 2014-12-11 22:40:51 UTC
Lil' Brudder Too wrote:
It seems that it is just the gallente hulls that have this issue. Have you even considered this?

Instead of pulling out your soap box and telling all the dissidents to bugger off with their opinions (essentially that is your tone), why don't you take some time to see what the problem we are actually seeing is...


The issues you raise are already topics of discussion on the art team as they talk about how to improve the first version of PBR. And, of course player opinions matter, positive or negative.

That said, when you turn your comments against the people involved rather than the things you like or don't like about the work, you do risk them tuning out, which is a shame because you're raising comments about the work that have value.

CCP Darwin  •  Senior Software Engineer, Art & Graphics, EVE Online  •  @mark_wilkins
Lil' Brudder Too
Pistols for Pandas
#133 - 2014-12-11 23:18:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Lil' Brudder Too
CCP Darwin wrote:

The issues you raise are already topics of discussion on the art team as they talk about how to improve the first version of PBR. And, of course player opinions matter, positive or negative.


Sooo, why couldn't this have been the first thing stated when someone gave you feedback saying the gallente hulls specifically looked terribad? Instead of telling the people giving you the feedback to eat it? (maybe not you specifically, but that is the general tone we have gotten from the dev's) It took proding you guys for how long to finally get this response...finally...
CCP Darwin wrote:
That said, when you turn your comments against the people involved rather than the things you like or don't like about the work, you do risk them tuning out, which is a shame because you're raising comments about the work that have value.

Yet if ANY of the dev's would have responded like you just did now...with a "we see this is an issue" mentality, and not just saying "well, i advise you select the setting that you like most"....we wouldn't be in this situation now. (lets not forget all the feedback that was given, and seemingly ignored while this was on SiSi) You can't talk down to your customers, while NOT telling them they are infact showing you something that is an issue, then expect them to somehow know that you are infact looking into said issue...even though no Dev has ever said it. Then you get mad at us for constantly baggering you to look at the issue...of course we are...because you haven't answered it yet!!!

Its simply about communication. We (the general players saying the same thing i have been) gave you specific details about what was wrong with certain ships, every CCP response was either ignoring our feedback, or telling us to eat it. If that was not what your intention was, i suggest you tailor your replies in the future a little better.

How else should i go about saying "stop being a d-bag and listen to what i'm saying" while every response i see from a dev responding to this particular issue was generally "deal with it...either go full out or not at all." I'm sorry if i sound peeved off, but its because i am. Also, i try not to 'turn against' any particular dev, and usually try to address "CCP" as a whole...

Also, you might want to send someone over to update the "Rhea Issues" thread....or atleast show that you guys are still looking at it. (can you atleast see where my frustration is coming from?)

New Icon SiSi feedback thread that got wholly ignored!

An example of that a good ship icon set looks like.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#134 - 2014-12-11 23:19:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
CCP Mankiller, caught your interview on o7. With the before and after screenshots I posted I was using the Medium shader settings for both as my particular graphics card doesn't support the High option. So it's a fair comparison between Phoebe and Rhea based on my limitations. When I get my upgraded system later in December I eagerly look forward to the High shader settings.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#135 - 2014-12-11 23:19:24 UTC
Double post.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#136 - 2014-12-12 00:39:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Vincent Athena
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
CCP Mankiller, caught your interview on o7. With the before and after screenshots I posted I was using the Medium shader settings for both as my particular graphics card doesn't support the High option. So it's a fair comparison between Phoebe and Rhea based on my limitations. When I get my upgraded system later in December I eagerly look forward to the High shader settings.

I do not really have the option to consider high settings. My computer supports it, but the FPS is too low. In fact, when I triple box, even medium is now too high. It use to run fine on medium.

Please keep those of us with less than top of the line equipment in mind, both in terms of a good looking game and in terms of performance. Recently it seems your goal is to make the game look good for the few with top end hardware, and as long as it can be used by everyone else, even if it looks worse (or has to be made to look worse by turning down settings to get a useable fps), it ships.

Know a Frozen fan? Check this out

Frozen fanfiction
Sylveria Relden
#137 - 2014-12-12 00:53:31 UTC
The colors look a ton better after the patch. The Gallente green looks substantially better - not as "lime" as it was before. The Amarr combination looks a lot better, too- the gold still stands out but it's not quite as reflective. Awesome job on the PBR stuff so far, keep up the good work!

TL;DR If you didn't read the entire post perhaps you're probably ADHD. (seek help)
Dangeresque Too
Pistols for Pandas
#138 - 2014-12-12 01:06:22 UTC
Found this gem when I was going to my recent screenshots... I know they say its not done yet as they only released like 1/3 of a full graphics system upgrade, but this just looks wrong.

Nado, full graphics on high, ugh...

Is that the interim intended look of the ship? I hope not. Further reference this was in taken in Jita, last night, 24 hours ago to be exact, and I don't think they have made changes since then.
CCP Darwin
C C P
C C P Alliance
#139 - 2014-12-12 01:15:08 UTC
Dangeresque Too wrote:
Found this gem when I was going to my recent screenshots... I know they say its not done yet as they only released like 1/3 of a full graphics system upgrade, but this just looks wrong.


It does look wrong. If you are able to go back to where you were and re-create the screenshot as part of a bug report through the F12 menu, we'll get a bunch of additional info that will help us identify why it looks like that under those circumstances.

CCP Darwin  •  Senior Software Engineer, Art & Graphics, EVE Online  •  @mark_wilkins
Dangeresque Too
Pistols for Pandas
#140 - 2014-12-12 01:58:49 UTC
It was straight out from 4-4, someone had mentioned the new naga warp animation so I was seeing if the nado had one... then I saw that. I'll see what I can do to replicate it, though I can't see if it is any other minnie ships as the nado is the only one I have in Jita, well, I guess I have a rupture too.