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Dev blog: Physically Based Rendering and making EVE look "Real"

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Cannibal Kane
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#61 - 2014-12-09 06:39:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Cannibal Kane
I was looking at the idea of a ship showing its age that mentioned in the Blog. Why not take that idea further?

What if scarring was introduced? I mean CCP has the ability to identify how many ships a certain ship killed. Why not use that to make a ship that has survived countless of battles show some sort of scarring? Imagine seeing 3 or 4 ships engage you showing scars of surviving countless battles? I would happily die to people in those ships.

(Only VS Ships that shoots back and PVP Only, not red Crosses. That would defeat the purpose of showing off a battle scarred warrior)

"Kane is the End Boss of Highsec." -Psychotic Monk
Timai Mutex
Leprosorium
#62 - 2014-12-09 07:22:13 UTC
That is a little strange formula for BRDF.
Second part look like Beckmann distribution, but were is 'e' it thats case? And whole top part is seems like oversimplified, isn't it should be e^(((n.h)^2-1)/C^4*(n.h)^2)? Assuming that C^4 = roughness^2?

And the third part kinda looks like Cook-Torrance geometric function (because using 'min'), but also look strange.
So, i'm just curious, what distribution/geometry term did you use?
Josef Djugashvilis
#63 - 2014-12-09 08:14:46 UTC
Timai Mutex wrote:
That is a little strange formula for BRDF.
Second part look like Beckmann distribution, but were is 'e' it thats case? And whole top part is seems like oversimplified, isn't it should be e^(((n.h)^2-1)/C^4*(n.h)^2)? Assuming that C^4 = roughness^2?

And the third part kinda looks like Cook-Torrance geometric function (because using 'min'), but also look strange.
So, i'm just curious, what distribution/geometry term did you use?


I was thinking the very same thing myself good sir Shocked

This is not a signature.
CCP BunnyVirus
C C P
C C P Alliance
#64 - 2014-12-09 08:18:53 UTC
Jon Dekker wrote:
"dynamic dirt levels (older ships showing their age?)"

YES PLEASE! I can also think this would allow dynamic damage on the hull, right?

On the dirty ships idea, I've always thought about what EVE would be like with a system that allowed a ship to "get old". Sort of like that trusty Corellian freighter that looks like crap but can still make the Kessel run in only 18 parsecs! It's not a gamechanger, but I think it would add a whole new dimension to ship ownership. It's the little things that make me excite! :)




Dynamic hull damage is unfortunatly something else and not included but i might be able to convince ccp mankiller to think of a way to use the dirtmap for stuff like that.

3D Artist
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#65 - 2014-12-09 08:25:10 UTC
CCP BunnyVirus wrote:
Jon Dekker wrote:
"dynamic dirt levels (older ships showing their age?)"

YES PLEASE! I can also think this would allow dynamic damage on the hull, right?

On the dirty ships idea, I've always thought about what EVE would be like with a system that allowed a ship to "get old". Sort of like that trusty Corellian freighter that looks like crap but can still make the Kessel run in only 18 parsecs! It's not a gamechanger, but I think it would add a whole new dimension to ship ownership. It's the little things that make me excite! :)




Dynamic hull damage is unfortunatly something else and not included but i might be able to convince ccp mankiller to think of a way to use the dirtmap for stuff like that.



That would honestly be more realistic than dirt in space... Big smile

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Ultimate Citadel Guide - 2016 EVE Career Chart
Valeo Galaem
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#66 - 2014-12-09 08:43:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Valeo Galaem
(I've also asked this on reddit...)

I've taken a look at the resource files on Sisi and I have a few questions:

  • What is the *_ap.dds texture? An albedo map + some kind of mask?
  • The *_pgs.dds files are now *_pgr.dds files. What is the "R" channel that replaced the specular map? (Roughness?)
  • The *.black files are gone, so where are the material definitions?


Once upon a time there was a Dev Blog that gave a nice breakdown:
http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/art-blog-improvement-of-textures-and-a-new-scorpion-model/

I'm just wondering. There are a lot of people who like to use Eve assets in 3D projects and the new models are too beautiful to pass on!

Standalone Windows build of ccpgames/dae-to-red

https://github.com/Nu11u5/dae-to-red/releases
CCP BunnyVirus
C C P
C C P Alliance
#67 - 2014-12-09 09:57:53 UTC
Valeo Galaem wrote:
(I've also asked this on reddit...)

I've taken a look at the resource files on Sisi and I have a few questions:

  • What is the *_ap.dds texture? An albedo map + some kind of mask?
  • The *_pgs.dds files are now *_pgr.dds files. What is the "R" channel that replaced the specular map? (Roughness?)
  • The *.black files are gone, so where are the material definitions?


Once upon a time there was a Dev Blog that gave a nice breakdown:
http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/art-blog-improvement-of-textures-and-a-new-scorpion-model/

I'm just wondering. There are a lot of people who like to use Eve assets in 3D projects and the new models are too beautiful to pass on!



First, the _ap.dds could you mean _ao.dds? If so it is an ambient occlusion map
Second, the R represents the roughness map and
last all material definitions are in the data.red file.


3D Artist
Xindi Kraid
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#68 - 2014-12-09 10:00:04 UTC
Valeo Galaem wrote:
so where are the material definitions?
[/list]

Once upon a time there was a Dev Blog that gave a nice breakdown:
http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/art-blog-improvement-of-textures-and-a-new-scorpion-model/

I'm just wondering. There are a lot of people who like to use Eve assets in 3D projects and the new models are too beautiful to pass on!

The formulas posted in this dev blog mean jack squat to me, but I do understand texture files somewhat, and would LOVE it if we could get an update on the devlog that is quoted above in case anything has changed and to mention how it affects the new rendering engine.

Also: about that ship customization? How's it coming?
and high res textures: will we ever see any (I also wouldn't say no to models with extra polys as well)?
Aineko Macx
#69 - 2014-12-09 10:06:35 UTC
Yes, pls turn down nebulas.
Also turn down the chrome on gallente ships.

iveeCore 3.0: The PHP engine for industrial activities and CREST library
CCP Antiquarian
C C P
C C P Alliance
#70 - 2014-12-09 10:12:52 UTC
Tarsas Phage wrote:
I guess you can say that the new light modeling looks pretty... Schlick.



This is pretty good.

"Singularity pilots are helpful pilots."

@CCP_Antiquarian - for immediate fulfillment of your archaic social media needs.
Valeo Galaem
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#71 - 2014-12-09 10:32:58 UTC
CCP BunnyVirus wrote:
Valeo Galaem wrote:
(I've also asked this on reddit...)

I've taken a look at the resource files on Sisi and I have a few questions:

  • What is the *_ap.dds texture? An albedo map + some kind of mask?
  • The *_pgs.dds files are now *_pgr.dds files. What is the "R" channel that replaced the specular map? (Roughness?)
  • The *.black files are gone, so where are the material definitions?


Once upon a time there was a Dev Blog that gave a nice breakdown:
http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/art-blog-improvement-of-textures-and-a-new-scorpion-model/

I'm just wondering. There are a lot of people who like to use Eve assets in 3D projects and the new models are too beautiful to pass on!



First, the _ap.dds could you mean _ao.dds? If so it is an ambient occlusion map
Second, the R represents the roughness map and
last all material definitions are in the data.red file.




I mean the *_ap.dds files, just like I said...

http://i.imgur.com/0wSxcG1.png

I do understand that large models (capital ships, etc) have ambient occulsion maps in the *_ao.dds files. But, smaller ships do not. All ships using PBR have the *_ap.dds files.

Those files have greyscale texture data on the RGB channels with some colored data for "weathering" and fine painted details (as seen in the image I linked), and a mask for said fine painted details in the alpha channel.

Standalone Windows build of ccpgames/dae-to-red

https://github.com/Nu11u5/dae-to-red/releases
Zaand Schtvaal
SUNDERING
Goonswarm Federation
#72 - 2014-12-09 10:34:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Zaand Schtvaal
From what I'm seeing I'm not crazy about this. Sure, it looks really nice, and anything that advances the beauty of the game is great, but it just doesn't feel very EVE. Where's the grit? The tarnish? the noir? Everything is so damn shiny and clean looking. I don't want a spaceship with studio lighting and a fresh wax job, I want a burnt out rusty hulk with scorch marks on the hull and rust in the seams, floating desolately in the empty darkness of space.

But maybe that's just me.

Now if you start to add some wear and tear, especially if you make it dynamic, then you will have earned my eternal undying love.
CCP BunnyVirus
C C P
C C P Alliance
#73 - 2014-12-09 10:37:27 UTC
Valeo Galaem wrote:
CCP BunnyVirus wrote:
Valeo Galaem wrote:
(I've also asked this on reddit...)

I've taken a look at the resource files on Sisi and I have a few questions:

  • What is the *_ap.dds texture? An albedo map + some kind of mask?
  • The *_pgs.dds files are now *_pgr.dds files. What is the "R" channel that replaced the specular map? (Roughness?)
  • The *.black files are gone, so where are the material definitions?


Once upon a time there was a Dev Blog that gave a nice breakdown:
http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/art-blog-improvement-of-textures-and-a-new-scorpion-model/

I'm just wondering. There are a lot of people who like to use Eve assets in 3D projects and the new models are too beautiful to pass on!



First, the _ap.dds could you mean _ao.dds? If so it is an ambient occlusion map
Second, the R represents the roughness map and
last all material definitions are in the data.red file.




I mean the *_ap.dds files, just like I said...

http://i.imgur.com/0wSxcG1.png

I do understand that large models (capital ships, etc) have ambient occulsion maps in the *_ao.dds files. But, smaller ships do not. All ships using PBR have the *_ap.dds files.

Those files have greyscale texture data on the RGB channels with some colored data for "weathering" and fine painted details (as seen in the image I linked), and a mask for said fine painted details in the alpha channel.



In that case its the albedo map + a new mask map

3D Artist
CCP Mankiller
C C P
C C P Alliance
#74 - 2014-12-09 10:38:44 UTC
Timai Mutex wrote:
That is a little strange formula for BRDF.
Second part look like Beckmann distribution, but were is 'e' it thats case? And whole top part is seems like oversimplified, isn't it should be e^(((n.h)^2-1)/C^4*(n.h)^2)? Assuming that C^4 = roughness^2?

And the third part kinda looks like Cook-Torrance geometric function (because using 'min'), but also look strange.
So, i'm just curious, what distribution/geometry term did you use?



So, the first part of the shown equation is the fresnel term and it's based on Schlick's approximation, nothing special here.

The second part is the distribution model and this one is called GGX, it's good for all non-organic surfaces like metal, plastic, etc. Please find a good explanation here, it's equation (3)

The final part then is the Schlick-Smith based visibility function, a bit optimized for performance.

I hope that helps a bit.
Valeo Galaem
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#75 - 2014-12-09 10:40:04 UTC
CCP BunnyVirus wrote:
In that case its the albedo map + a new mask map


Perfect, thanks!

Big smile

Standalone Windows build of ccpgames/dae-to-red

https://github.com/Nu11u5/dae-to-red/releases
Valeo Galaem
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#76 - 2014-12-09 10:43:29 UTC
CCP BunnyVirus wrote:

last all material definitions are in the data.red file.


Off the top of your head, do you know the resource path for this file? It's not turning up anywhere...

Sad

Standalone Windows build of ccpgames/dae-to-red

https://github.com/Nu11u5/dae-to-red/releases
CCP Mankiller
C C P
C C P Alliance
#77 - 2014-12-09 10:44:02 UTC
Valeo Galaem wrote:
(I've also asked this on reddit...)

I've taken a look at the resource files on Sisi and I have a few questions:

  • What is the *_ap.dds texture? An albedo map + some kind of mask?
  • The *_pgs.dds files are now *_pgr.dds files. What is the "R" channel that replaced the specular map? (Roughness?)
  • The *.black files are gone, so where are the material definitions?


Once upon a time there was a Dev Blog that gave a nice breakdown:
http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/art-blog-improvement-of-textures-and-a-new-scorpion-model/

I'm just wondering. There are a lot of people who like to use Eve assets in 3D projects and the new models are too beautiful to pass on!


Hi!

_ap stands for albedo and paintmask: three channels for a color albedo map plus the alpha channel holds a special paint mask, which indicates small paint jobs on the hull.

The change from _pgs to _pgr indicates the switch from specular maps to using roughness maps.

And finally the black files for ships are all gone because all of this data moved into the SOF, as explained in this devblog!
CCP Antiquarian
C C P
C C P Alliance
#78 - 2014-12-09 10:59:37 UTC
CCP Mankiller wrote:
And finally the black files for ships are all gone because all of this data moved into the SOF, as explained in this devblog!



((stagewhisper)) ...which I also got to edit! ((/stagewhisper))

"Singularity pilots are helpful pilots."

@CCP_Antiquarian - for immediate fulfillment of your archaic social media needs.
Xindi Kraid
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#79 - 2014-12-09 10:59:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Xindi Kraid
Would you folks care to give us a list of all the maps (and specific channels/masks) and other files you guys are using to texture with?
CCP Vertex
C C P
C C P Alliance
#80 - 2014-12-09 11:01:04 UTC
Lil' Brudder Too wrote:
Sooo, i had just looked at those same ships on SiSi moments before i read that blog....

While i was looking at the new ships i kept saying, that looks nothing like it...the one i'm seeing has no color minus a few spots...

Then my borther looks at them on his PC...his looks MUCH different....so we compare graphics settings...

As it was, most ships looked absolutely terribad on my PC...with these settings (note, not exactly 'everything at lowest possible' )

A-A = medium
P-P = Low
Shader = Medium
Texture = High
LOD = High
Shadow = Low
Interior EFX = Medium
Interior Shader = Low

---
Now once i changed everything to max did the ships look decent. Brutix still looks like i'm flying a chrome Christmas tree ornament.

I'm sorry, but did you even consider those of us that don't run our clients on full max GFX settings before you made the non-full versions? Very disappointed.

--
Okay, so i narrowed the biggest "ugliness" culprit down....its the "shader quality"

With everything else set on "high"...here is what happens with the model when changing "shader quality" from high-medium-low....something is off here....

High
Medium
Low

Maybe someone (i don't know, maybe the Imbedded QA????) should test their stuff before saying its 'done'. Good form CCP.

I suspect it is like this for numerous other ships as well. But since i'm paying you (CCP) to test these sort of things while you are developing them...and not the other way around...i have other things more important to do.



Hi Lil' Brudder Too,

We most certainly consider and go to great lengths to investigate the visual and performance impact of our graphic features on a wide range of hardware, specifically using our minimum & recommended specification machines as control points.

You have discovered yourself that the ships don't look as good on Medium shader quality, this is because we do not include the dirt map in that shader model. This reduces the instruction count by roughly 50%, this was done purposefully to ensure players with mid-range hardware that cant cope with high settings can have improved performance at the cost of reduced visual fidelity.

I can see your GPU should be more than capable of running the client with high shader quality, if there is a reason such as performance issues that is forcing you to run on medium shader quality then we'd love to see a bug report from you so we can investigate.







**CCP Vertex  |  Senior Development Manager ** | @CCP_Vertex