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Industry Teams - Current Plans

First post First post
Author
Calorn Marthor
Standard Fuel Company
#41 - 2014-12-04 14:30:08 UTC
CCP RubberBAND wrote:


In summary we can only realistically look at two options here:


  • Leave them as is (yes it would be cool to do X or Y, but realistically we cannot)
  • Remove them


meh...

Can't you just put the thing on kickstarter?
Other people even manage to sell features for nonexistant games there.

(on a more serious note: I like the feature even as it is, but I would not unsub if it went away and you promise that it makes the rest of the development significantly easier)
Makhpella
Bad Taste.
#42 - 2014-12-04 14:30:44 UTC
If you remove teams then there will be no depth in industry. Its going to be plain and stupid.
Kolb
Fancy Fox Enterprises
#43 - 2014-12-04 14:32:32 UTC
Nomistrav wrote:

Removal insinuates that it will never be revisited, let's not beat around the bush there. There aren't many (if any) features that actually make it back into the game after they've been removed. If anything, it'd actually become more difficult if not just as difficult to re-implement it later on as the game evolves. The only difference is with it's removal there's now a lack of motivation to bring it back at all and what few people did use it get penalized unnecessarily.



That's exactly (and freakishly nearly verbatim) what my thought is on this.
TeeKay Latef
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#44 - 2014-12-04 14:32:56 UTC
Sad to see it go, but it was flawed in many ways. I just hope they bring Teams back someday...

The thing that was most annoying for me, was i couldnt use them remotely.
If they ever come back add an "Project Management" Skill, with prequesite Advanced Industry V maybe. 2 Jumps per level to invite teams to your system.
Or make them actual in game items, so you can trade them and ship them around. my2 cents
Kel hound
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#45 - 2014-12-04 14:35:40 UTC
CCP RubberBAND wrote:


  • Leave them as is (yes it would be cool to do X or Y, but realistically we cannot)
  • Remove them



Would removing teams potentially help alleviate some of the lag associated with using the industry window? I know of some capital producers that use teams so I think keeping them could hold some value. However aside from a few nich cases I don't think anyone will be truly sorry to see them go.
Pitty, but a cool idea improperly or inadequately implemented is really just a meh net feature. I'm curious how far onto the back-burner Teams is being thrown though. Are we talking a few development cycles, a few dozen development cycles, or a period of time yet to be determined?
Awkward Pi Duolus
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#46 - 2014-12-04 14:37:10 UTC
There are limitations of the current team mechanics, but it's not fundamentally flawed.. leave them as is if it's not that much extra effort to maintain, maybe?

You'll also probably find that some kinds of teams are used (high value item, high % difference), and others are not. As others have mentioned, this is probably an indication that the initial scope was too wide.

Having said that, I won't miss them if they're done. They were just another unnecessary level of complexity.
Aiyshimin
Descendant Command
#47 - 2014-12-04 14:38:33 UTC
It's a nice feature and shame if it will be just disabled like this.

Ravcharas
Infinite Point
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#48 - 2014-12-04 14:40:47 UTC
If you investigated the issue, what did you find? What is it that keeps people from using teams?

(My guess would be that it's mostly UI related)
BoBoZoBo
MGroup9
Quantum Cafe
#49 - 2014-12-04 14:45:02 UTC  |  Edited by: BoBoZoBo
Steve Ronuken wrote:
It's a shame that the feature is being removed, but with the low usage, and the problems with it, it's better to remove it until a team has the time to work on it properly, rather than leaving it in a half working state. Sad




What is sad, is that a admittedly 1/2 baked feature made it into the game.

But sometimes you have to try things to know better and Kudos to CCP on recognizing the reasonable player disenfranchisement of it, and removing it until a better implementation of the goal gets fully baked.

Primary Test Subject • SmackTalker Elite

Nyjil Lizaru
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#50 - 2014-12-04 14:47:44 UTC
Teams seemed like a nice idea, and I did look into them occasionally. But they added just a little bit too much complexity for my tastes - though I admit to being a rather casual industrialist.

Nyjil's corollary to Malcanis' Law:   "Any attempt by CCP to smooth the learning curve of EVE Online will be carried out via the addition of extra factors and 'features' such that there is a net increase in complexity."

Macker Momo
The Big Moe
#51 - 2014-12-04 14:51:19 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
It's a shame that the feature is being removed, but with the low usage, and the problems with it, it's better to remove it until a team has the time to work on it properly, rather than leaving it in a half working state. Sad


Yes. At this point teams benefit only a select few. Good luck with the revamp.

Life is short. Have fun.

Valterra Craven
#52 - 2014-12-04 14:51:26 UTC
I think removing something in game that is working but not used very much is an ill conceived idea and sets a very bad precedent for the future.
Firvain
Wildly Inappropriate
Goonswarm Federation
#53 - 2014-12-04 14:52:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Firvain
Damn I loved my teams. Will be sad to see them go. It was very good for ship production. I have to admit that I did not use them often for module production, but module production is usually an on the spur of the momemnt thing and the delay in aquiring teams makes that kinda hard.

But yeah for capital ships there was some real competition going on getting teams as they would save you alot of money. Also it fucks up my spreadsheets not having teams, that is annoying :(

Research teams same thing really. I dont realy plan out my research, except when i do some ship bpo research then i look for a team, but other then that, just not worth it.
Beaver Retriever
Reality Sequence
#54 - 2014-12-04 15:10:59 UTC
There is no reason to remove teams. All you need to do is to fix the auction mechanic so that additional bids extend the auction time. Sniping makes competing for teams a complete crapshoot.

Fix auctions, don't just remove a feature because it didn't work the way you wanted to.

If the rest of the dev team followed this logic, there wouldn't be much Eve left.

I look forward to the post announcing the removal of POSes, PI and sentry drones since those have remained unfixed for years.
Omnathious Deninard
Ministry of Silly Walks.
Parasitic Legion.
#55 - 2014-12-04 15:16:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Omnathious Deninard
I have two major gripes with teams them selves.
1. There scope it too large, a team with a 2% reduction to TE should effect all time related factors of the blueprint, not just one sub portion.
2. The public aspect of them after you win a bid makes them less personal and therefore less desirable to bid on from the start.

Bid sniping is a problem but not as much of a deal breaker as these two.

Edit: If these things could be fixed without too much effort then I vote to keep teams in.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

Arronicus
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#56 - 2014-12-04 15:17:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Arronicus
The Ironfist wrote:
Arronicus wrote:
The Ironfist wrote:


When you added the build teams at the same time you increased the material requirements on capitals and supercapitals which is all well and good but since you're removing teams again now does it mean you'll revisit build requirements because thats a huge hit..


Slight mistake here. When CCP added build teams, at the same time they increased the amount of minerals you can get from a unit of ore. The increase in capital mineral usage I believe was to help offset this increased mineral supply, not the addition of teams.


You only get more now if you got a Tier2 or Tier3 Minmatar outpost so thats a really wired justification. Highec refine you actually get LESS now.. Lowsec POS you get the same you used too....



No.

From http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/reprocess-all-the-things/

"Decreasing reprocessing efficiency as a whole affects the outcome of mining, which really doesn’t need to be nerfed right now. As such, to keep ratio fairly identical, we are going to boost all minerals and ice products gained by reprocessing ores and ices approximately by 38.1% (1/0.724)."

Perfect highsec STATION refine is 0.72358, so the moment you use a highsec pos to refine, you get more than you did before, let alone using a null/lowsec pos, or ANY upgraded nullsec outpost.
Mara Kell
Herrscher der Zeit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#57 - 2014-12-04 15:20:48 UTC
Thank god this "feature" gets removed.

Those teams were one of the reason that made me stop any industrial production since Crius. Complexity is the reason why i still play and love this game, but teams did not add complexity they added randomness and unpredictability.

Now that teams will finally rip, can we maybe have a second look at rounding of material input numbers and the ME formula? The new Crius formula still gives irrational results for researched capital ship blue prints.
Shizuken
Venerated Stars
#58 - 2014-12-04 15:24:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Shizuken
Jarnis McPieksu wrote:


Problems I see with them;

* Large number of utterly worthless teams (1% off building probes. CCP plz), so if your metric is related to how many of the teams are a month make me piles of ISK)

* You generally overestimate how useful a time bonus is. I don't care if the job takes 2d 15 hours or 2d 13 hours really... Now if the job takes 1d 15h instead of 2d 15h, I'm interested...

* Large percentage of available teams having very small bonus (0.5% bonus... not quite worth the :effort:) and very hard to grab the valuable teams (2%, 3% etc) without alarmclocking for auction end times.

* Terrible auction system. No sniping rules whatsoever. Look at online auction sites and learn something before implementing.


I am not kidding, I literally just looked at teams last night for the first time ever and noticed these issues right away. So many skills already give bonuses to build time, another 2-3 hours is meaningless to me. I get to play around the same time every day for a few hours. Any bonus that shrinks something by less than 24 hours is meaningless to me. It will still be done by the next time I log in either way.

I hoped that since you guys are now shafting us so much on recoverable minerals that there would have been larger bonuses to material costs. But even though I haven't done the math it doesn't look like the current team material bonuses are worth the cost of the team. The margins are so low I cant see it being worth it unless you are making hundreds or thousands of units. What is the point of saving money on materials if you spend it on a team instead and get your goods 2 hours earlier?

The auction system appears worthless as well. I am not setting an alarm to wake up and hire one.
Ereshgikal
Wharf Crusaders
#59 - 2014-12-04 15:27:22 UTC
I've used teams once or twice since I am a very casual industrialist. However, I love the complexity the teams brought in and have set up the proper spreadsheets/tools to find out where I would break even on a team in terms of units produced. To me, making tools is more fun than doing the industry in-game.

Please, leave the teams in and revisit the existing flaws later when resources allow for it. If you remove it the cost of re-introducing it will be much higher and take more energy from you and the community since I bet the developer when that happens wants to leave "their mark" on the feature...meaning additional costs.

To those that find teams too complex to use, the margin you do gain from using teams is not insignificant but they are not a necessity to use to be able to make a profit. You can continue to ignore the teams.

I view teams as a faction/officer mod of industry. It is horribly expensive and you better know when/how to use it. I see no one calling for the removal of "worthless" officer mods. Ok, analogy might be a bit flawed, but it is close to how I view it.
THOR LIGHTING
Rage of Inferno
#60 - 2014-12-04 15:32:21 UTC
I understand the issues with teams not being used as much as expected and perhaps adding a bit more complexity to a already complex industry but isnt there a better way to deal with this other than just removing them?

I am a low sec capital builder. With Crius launching many low sec capital builders sold all their assets and moved on because of the rather large buff to capital building that null sec was getting. In order to compete with this CCP launched the Thukker array which reduced the materials needed and time. Which was great it had its intended affect but the truth is that in null sec you can build a dread at similar cost and take 4-5 days what takes me 12 days to build in low sec.

Teams greatly reduced this for me. I am building on average 30 dreads per month. If i won a 2.5% ME reduction to capital components team along with a 2.5-5% ME reduction Dread/carrier/capital hull building team I could reduce the price of building a dread by almost 150 mil. On average the teams were saving me 4.5bil isk in materials a month. I loved them and would set timers on my phone so that i would be active and ready to bid when good teams when they became available.

For low sec capital builders teams are a HUGE difference so please don't forget about us as we've already been gimped