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Dev blog: A new Era of Clones

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Kolb
Fancy Fox Enterprises
#21 - 2014-12-02 16:02:34 UTC
Valterra Craven wrote:
CCP Terminus wrote:


Your point did not go undebated in the office.


Fair enough, any comments as to how the debate went and what actually decided it?



I think we all know how the debate went, though the deciding factor would be interesting to know.

Didn't Greyscale or someone say they didn't want to redeem the points because it trivialized the efforts in training the skills up?

I could be misremembering though.
Noriko Mai
#22 - 2014-12-02 16:06:15 UTC
Finally \o/

"Meh.." - Albert Einstein
Dominique Vasilkovsky
#23 - 2014-12-02 16:06:39 UTC
Will you refund the isk for the clones we are sitting in now?
Lord Echon
Star-Crossed Enterprises
#24 - 2014-12-02 16:08:23 UTC
While I prefer the new clone system in Rhea compared to the old one, I think a compromise would have been even better. If you had made clone upgrades permanent (meaning a pilot with Clone Grade XI would still have XI after being podded), you could have reduced the death penalty instead of removing it.
Phoenix Jones
Small-Arms Fire
#25 - 2014-12-02 16:13:14 UTC
Lord Echon wrote:
While I prefer the new clone system in Rhea compared to the old one, I think a compromise would have been even better. If you had made clone upgrades permanent (meaning a pilot with Clone Grade XI would still have XI after being podded), you could have reduced the death penalty instead of removing it.



I think they believe there was no point in the penalty in the first place.

Basically you log in, pay 200 million isk day 1 to get clone max upgrade to never worry about it again? Ccp's decision is sound.

Now to get rid of the training skill boosting implants :-)

Yaay!!!!
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#26 - 2014-12-02 16:20:39 UTC
Lord Echon wrote:
While I prefer the new clone system in Rhea compared to the old one, I think a compromise would have been even better. If you had made clone upgrades permanent (meaning a pilot with Clone Grade XI would still have XI after being podded), you could have reduced the death penalty instead of removing it.

This still creates a bunch of busywork that you have to keep track of which has no real benefit to the user. They are trying to eliminate that sort of thing when it is glaringly obvious, like it is in this case.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Barrett Fruitcake
Doomheim
#27 - 2014-12-02 16:22:41 UTC
Can you remove the massive sec status drop related to podding now?
Sir Livingston
Doomheim
#28 - 2014-12-02 16:23:13 UTC
Big smile

Sci-fi games as played by an earthbound human in the 21st century http://www.youtube.com/JonnyPew
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#29 - 2014-12-02 16:27:20 UTC
This was an intelligent and reasonable decision.

Whilst some people seem to be of the opinion that focusing on buzzwords and phrases is the answer to most things.
There is no getting away from the fact that there are mechanics in the game, that simply make things unpleasant, without any other mitigating feature.
I am pleased to see that these are being dealt with in a thoughtful manner, even though there are those who feel somewhat aggrieved, believing that bad mechanics being removed, is somehow a negative direction for the game.

It is not.
Removing bad, legacy, mechanics, that have the effect of making the game a negative experience, and have NO benefit, is a desireable and laudable goal.

If there is any benefit to them, focus on THAT, and rebuild/redesign it.

I look forward to seeing more of these changes being implemented as they are identified.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Daza Vyndre
Hadean Veil Operations
#30 - 2014-12-02 16:32:54 UTC
Helison wrote:
Sad
Now it will be better in most cases to just self-destruct the pod after losing a ship than trying to get the pod safe. Please do not continue this path of making EVE easier and easier!


Implants.

This change doesn't make the game easier, it makes it less unpleasant. I really disagree with your notion of having to sink ISK to make the game difficult.
Defier Orilis
Defiance Eden Initiative
#31 - 2014-12-02 16:37:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Defier Orilis
How do you say "AMEN" in Jovian?

Cuz, I have the feeling I am going to die a lot more when the sleepers arrive...
Tahnil
Gunboat Commando
#32 - 2014-12-02 16:43:39 UTC
This is a very good change!

Helison wrote:
Sad
While I agree that the process of upgrading clones was not the best experience, I dislike how much the death penalty is reduced with this change. Now it will be better in most cases to just self-destruct the pod after losing a ship than trying to get the pod safe. Please do not continue this path of making EVE easier and easier!


It depends! If your clone has expensive implants or if your medical clone is – for some reason – far away from your staging system / reshipping point, you still want to save your pod!
Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#33 - 2014-12-02 16:52:21 UTC
I am not sure if CCP have considered this, but how will this effect the current importance of medical facilities?

As of now, medical facilities are of vital strategic importance, as if your reanimate in a station without medical facilities, then you cannot upgrade your clone and basically cannot pvp unless you risk losing SP.

For this reason most people try and base their corporation at a location with a medical facility, and there is real meaning to death as if you are defending an area with no medical facility then when you are podded you end up out the fight. Many corporations have based themselves around stations with vital medical facilities for these reasons.

Are there any plans now to keep the importance of medical facilities? As of now they have no purpose with this change, and a massive blow has been struck to the strategic planning of many corporations.
Eyrun Mangeiri
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#34 - 2014-12-02 16:55:28 UTC
Helison wrote:
Sad
While I agree that the process of upgrading clones was not the best experience, I dislike how much the death penalty is reduced with this change. Now it will be better in most cases to just self-destruct the pod after losing a ship than trying to get the pod safe. Please do not continue this path of making EVE easier and easier!


And this is different from now because of what? It's not like anyone is getting poor because he is buying clone upgrades o_o

I can see what you see not - vision milky then eyes rot. When you turn they will be gone - whispering their hidden song.
Vartan Sarkisian
Phoenix Connection
Lack of Judgement.
#35 - 2014-12-02 16:55:40 UTC
CCP Terminus wrote:
Valterra Craven wrote:
You know what's funny? I've made this exact same argument to Greyscale et al about skillpoints:

Quote:
Skill point acquisition is very much tied to your subscription and the real money you spent on the game, so taking some of their skill points away can feel like wasted money to the player.


You know whats worse? When that logical argument is ignored by the devs every time they change a skill. One of the biggest changes I can remember is the change to the ME % in industry recently. Players complained and complained about losing something valuable and replacing it with something worthless. And you know what? You guys didn't have a single GOOD argument for why you shouldn't have refunded everyone's SP.

In my opinion every time a skill is changed regardless of how trivial or major, you should refund the SP of that skill. Period. No questions asked. SP is simply too intertwined with the subscription costs to treat changes to them so nonchalantly.



Your point did not go undebated in the office.


Debated and yet ultimately ignored it would seem.
Draahk Chimera
Supervillains
#36 - 2014-12-02 16:56:14 UTC
I do not like this change one bit, and few of your (CCP) arguments are valid.

Quote:
A choice between a bad option of losing ISK, and a worse option of losing skillpoints.


You can say that about almost everything in EVE. You can make a poor choice by paying ISK for a hurricane, or a worse one by flying an ibis.

Quote:
Small lapses of forgetfulness will no longer cause players to retrain weeks of lost skillpoint time.


Will you also replace the ships of pilots who "forgot" it was a bad idea to jump wormholes without a scout?

Quote:
In addition, veteran players will have more reasons to undock in cheaper ships


No they wont. I am a 2005 character and I pvp in frigs and t1 cruisers all the time. The reason being that I do not have high grade slave implants. Many of my friends are also that age or even older and they too pvp in small ships regular. Those 04-05 toons who do not undock unless in a pirate bs or a capital will not start doing so just because they do not have to pay for a clone. It is the pirate implants that is the big cost you see.

Quote:
Forgetting to upgrade the clone and losing skill points because of that is a terrible experience for new players


This is your (CCP) only valid argument and could be fixed by a warning box for players younger then, say, 3 months rather then taking away one huge risk vs. reward (also known as Darwinism) from EVE.

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EvilweaselFinance
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#37 - 2014-12-02 16:59:36 UTC
Medalyn Isis wrote:
I am not sure if CCP have considered this, but how will this effect the current importance of medical facilities?

As of now, medical facilities are of vital strategic importance, as if your reanimate in a station without medical facilities, then you cannot upgrade your clone and basically cannot pvp unless you risk losing SP.

For this reason most people try and base their corporation at a location with a medical facility, and there is real meaning to death as if you are defending an area with no medical facility then when you are podded you end up out the fight. Many corporations have based themselves around stations with vital medical facilities for these reasons.

Are there any plans now to keep the importance of medical facilities? As of now they have no purpose with this change, and a massive blow has been struck to the strategic planning of many corporations.

You can't set your clone to a non-medical station anymore with the abolition of podjumping.
C DeLeon
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#38 - 2014-12-02 17:01:27 UTC  |  Edited by: C DeLeon
It would be awesome if we would be able to manufacture clones with specialized bonuses (like bonus on scanning skills, command ship bonuses, ceptor bonuses, mining bonuses etc etc), being able to put implants in all of them and swap between the clones any time as long as the clone is at the same station as where we are. We should be able to haul around clones in the ships cargo hold. Death and clones would be tied to the economy and there would a real choice around the whole death is punishing and risk vs reward idea (better clones would cost more).

Also I don't like the current implant system. If we use some implants for a specific activity, we pretty much stuck with it for the next 24 hours until we can swap jump clones. I see it as the same problem as not going out and taking risks in small scale pvp because of high clone costs. It would solve this too.

(And we should be able to salvage some of the implants out of the corpses. Just imagine it! Collecting corpses as a new profession in eveCool)
Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#39 - 2014-12-02 17:02:21 UTC
EvilweaselFinance wrote:
Medalyn Isis wrote:
I am not sure if CCP have considered this, but how will this effect the current importance of medical facilities?

As of now, medical facilities are of vital strategic importance, as if your reanimate in a station without medical facilities, then you cannot upgrade your clone and basically cannot pvp unless you risk losing SP.

For this reason most people try and base their corporation at a location with a medical facility, and there is real meaning to death as if you are defending an area with no medical facility then when you are podded you end up out the fight. Many corporations have based themselves around stations with vital medical facilities for these reasons.

Are there any plans now to keep the importance of medical facilities? As of now they have no purpose with this change, and a massive blow has been struck to the strategic planning of many corporations.

You can't set your clone to a non-medical station anymore with the abolition of podjumping.

Incorrect I believe. You can still set your clone location to your corporation office, which doesn't have to have a medical facility.
CCP Terminus
C C P
C C P Alliance
#40 - 2014-12-02 17:02:42 UTC
Dominique Vasilkovsky wrote:
Will you refund the isk for the clones we are sitting in now?


There will be no refunds relating to the removal of the upgrade mechanic.

It is both impractical (determining when a person last bought their clone and for what price seeing as factional warfare and previous balancing has changed prices) and undesirable from our view to do so.

@CCP_Terminus // Game Designer // Team Size Matters