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Steps to survive Freighter bumping from Mach

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Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#181 - 2014-12-04 09:41:27 UTC
Ascended Lantean wrote:
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
[quote=Ascended Lantean][A standard Freighter's EHP is around 225,000 (Obelisk: 137.5k hull, ~70k armor, ~20k shields), which means that you'd need at least 9 Taloses, on average, to guarantee a kill.

Or 20 catalysts, which brings the cost to 300M. In fact, you can kill a Jump Freighter with catalysts alone, below the 1B cost mark. The ship costs 7B.


Let's get the prices correct here.

20 Catalysts cost 180 M in ship fittings, plus six hours of player time (the most efficient freighter gank teams can't kill more than 1 per 18 minutes). Most are closer to 24 minutes so eight player hours.

Six hours of player time is an opportunity cost of 300-400 million (if the players are low to medium SP) or 600+ million (if they are high SP).

Finally the freighter pilot receives an insurance payout (net) of 40-70% of the hull base, and if the Cat pilots are not running -10, they need an average of 15m worth of tags each per gank.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#182 - 2014-12-04 10:26:12 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Ascended Lantean wrote:
So, we have the bumping mechanic that allows a single player to keep another in space indefinitely, and for the suicide ganks to happen without sec status penalty for the bumper.
Then we have the cost of ganking so low that it allows gank fleets to effectively shut down a trade route with no risk or huge cost involved, for no apparent reason other than harassment.
Then we have the bounty/kill right system, which for people with -10 sec status simply doesn't work, because:
1. They are shoot on sight anywhere, anyway.
2. They fly cheap ships like a Catalyst or a Tornado.

So, several broken game mechanics are involved in this, and then we have the players being told it's their fault when the game heavily favors the gankers and leaves no chance for the peaceful players.

Someone would say "There is no place for peaceful activities, the game is dangerous". Well, it is, but it's also a sandbox, which means anyone should be able to play it the way they like. If you want to be a happy carebear, you should be able to do so, and there should be a place in game which allows you that. Currently a group of people is destroying the sandbox nature of the game, trying to dictate their own rules and preventing entire styles of gameplay.


Bumping is easily countered with a webbing ship or having a fast ship fly in front of the webbed freighter to provide a warp point or by counter bumping the bumpers.

Cost of ganking starts in the hundreds of millions and goes into to the billions depending on how well protected the target is.

if we are shoot on site then shoot us

Nado is 80-90 mil each and can be blown up for profit by a gank cat.


None of the thing you mention are broken and all have multiple counters. This game is indeed sandbox, you can play as you wish but that works both ways. The only person wanting to prevent entire styles of gameplay here is you.
Ascended Lantean
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#183 - 2014-12-04 10:37:06 UTC
So, "easily countered" means you either need to pay for a second account or someone needs to escort you at all times, which is impossible if you make 300-400 jumps a day, half of them flying empty. You are effectively destroying solo play in high sec.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#184 - 2014-12-04 10:46:07 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
There is a staggering amount of conflict free isk in the game. Nearly all PvE is done conflict free. Ratting, missions, mining, solo plexing fw, etc....these are all done conflict free 99% of the time. If you want a game where isk is earned through conflict....go somewhere else.

The potential for conflict is there, and that's what matters.


Potential for conflict is everywhere.....you can always be shot at. The actuality of conflict is not there. The fact that people feel safe AFK carrier ratting in a 3 billion isk ship in Dekklein while doing laundry and playing minecraft should tell you that the potential is theoretical, not practical.


Yep

Dek

is

100%

safe
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#185 - 2014-12-04 10:48:50 UTC
Ascended Lantean wrote:
So, "easily countered" means you either need to pay for a second account or someone needs to escort you at all times, which is impossible if you make 300-400 jumps a day, half of them flying empty. You are effectively destroying solo play in high sec.


We need a fleet to gank you yet here you are complaining about needing ONE person.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#186 - 2014-12-04 11:03:23 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Destiny Corrupted wrote:

I see a lot of assumptions here. You have any data to back these claims up? Because according to my calculations, RvB is responsible for a daily average of about 350 ship destructions, with a daily destroyed value of around 5 billion ISK.


Blue Republic 3,021
Red Federation 2,933

They are the most destructive corps in EVE let alone highsec. Combined their kills amount to getting on for a million over the organisations lifetime.
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#187 - 2014-12-04 11:09:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Destiny Corrupted
baltec1 wrote:
Destiny Corrupted wrote:

I see a lot of assumptions here. You have any data to back these claims up? Because according to my calculations, RvB is responsible for a daily average of about 350 ship destructions, with a daily destroyed value of around 5 billion ISK.


Blue Republic 3,021
Red Federation 2,933

They are the most destructive corps in EVE let alone highsec.

What period of time are those numbers for, and where are you getting them from? For the record, I'm getting the daily average over the past 22 months directly from the war interface in the game itself, and the daily numbers for November/December from their web killboard.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Square PI
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#188 - 2014-12-04 11:11:26 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
And I think the evidence shows that the impact of a pvp free highsec would be minimal.


You thinking it means very little, if not literally nothing. You've demonstrated time and again you don't know enough about this game to come to a conclusion like this, not to mention how often you contradict yourself. If you want a PVP-free highsec then EVE is not for you, it's that simple, because EVE is in its entirety and in every aspect a PVP game.



I find these comments always really interessting.

Most mean with PVP only the pew pew.
But lets see. What part of EVE can not be removed? What part is so essencial that the game can not live without?

Just a small hint, it is not PVP (pew pew). It is not even the general PVP.

Basicly you have to measure a game on the fundamental parts. Parts that have to be there so the game can work.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#189 - 2014-12-04 11:12:54 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Destiny Corrupted wrote:

I see a lot of assumptions here. You have any data to back these claims up? Because according to my calculations, RvB is responsible for a daily average of about 350 ship destructions, with a daily destroyed value of around 5 billion ISK.


Blue Republic 3,021
Red Federation 2,933

They are the most destructive corps in EVE let alone highsec.

What period of time are those numbers for, and where are you getting them from? For the record, I'm getting the daily average over the past 22 months directly from the war interface in the game itself, and the daily numbers for November/December from their web killboard.


This months killmails.

The pilot Rejuice K of Blue Republic for example has more kills this month than your average.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#190 - 2014-12-04 11:16:15 UTC
Square PI wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
And I think the evidence shows that the impact of a pvp free highsec would be minimal.


You thinking it means very little, if not literally nothing. You've demonstrated time and again you don't know enough about this game to come to a conclusion like this, not to mention how often you contradict yourself. If you want a PVP-free highsec then EVE is not for you, it's that simple, because EVE is in its entirety and in every aspect a PVP game.



I find these comments always really interessting.

Most mean with PVP only the pew pew.
But lets see. What part of EVE can not be removed? What part is so essencial that the game can not live without?

Just a small hint, it is not PVP (pew pew). It is not even the general PVP.

Basicly you have to measure a game on the fundamental parts. Parts that have to be there so the game can work.


Remove PvP and the entire economy collapses.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#191 - 2014-12-04 11:19:56 UTC
Square PI wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
And I think the evidence shows that the impact of a pvp free highsec would be minimal.


You thinking it means very little, if not literally nothing. You've demonstrated time and again you don't know enough about this game to come to a conclusion like this, not to mention how often you contradict yourself. If you want a PVP-free highsec then EVE is not for you, it's that simple, because EVE is in its entirety and in every aspect a PVP game.



I find these comments always really interessting.

Most mean with PVP only the pew pew.
But lets see. What part of EVE can not be removed? What part is so essencial that the game can not live without?

Just a small hint, it is not PVP (pew pew). It is not even the general PVP.

Basicly you have to measure a game on the fundamental parts. Parts that have to be there so the game can work.


PVP is the foundation of EVE online. It's not a small part, but it is the very core of the game. Like a shooter can't be a shooter without guns, and a racing game can't be a racing game without race vehicles, EVE can't be EVE without PVP.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#192 - 2014-12-04 11:22:34 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
This months killmails.

Unless I'm doing something terribly wrong, I see that Red scored 1023 kills and Blue scored 876 kills so far in December.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#193 - 2014-12-04 11:24:43 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
This months killmails.

Unless I'm doing something terribly wrong, I see that Red scored 1023 kills and Blue scored 876 kills so far in December.


Last months I should have said.

Still, 1023 kills in 4 days...
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#194 - 2014-12-04 11:28:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Destiny Corrupted
baltec1 wrote:
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
This months killmails.

Unless I'm doing something terribly wrong, I see that Red scored 1023 kills and Blue scored 876 kills so far in December.


Last months I should have said.

Still, 1023 kills in 4 days...

It's 1023 + 876 kills in 84 hours as of this writing, which is 542 kills per day, which is very much in line with the math I've previously posted, and shows that RvB is responsible for only a small fraction of destruction in high-sec by ship count, and an even smaller fraction of destruction in high-sec by ISK count, because something like 75% of the ships used in RvB are frigates, destroyers, and cruisers.

And like I said before, Marmite gets ~300 kills per day alone, and they're just one of the countless warrior entities in high-sec.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#195 - 2014-12-04 11:34:59 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
This months killmails.

Unless I'm doing something terribly wrong, I see that Red scored 1023 kills and Blue scored 876 kills so far in December.


Last months I should have said.

Still, 1023 kills in 4 days...

It's 1023 + 876 kills in 84 hours as of this writing, which is 542 kills per day, which is very much in line with the math I've previously posted, and shows that RvB is responsible for only a small fraction of destruction in high-sec by ship count, and an even smaller fraction of destruction in high-sec by ISK count, because something like 75% of the ships used in RvB are frigates, destroyers, and cruisers.

And like I said before, Marmite gets ~300 kills per day alone, and they're just one of the countless warrior entities in high-sec.


Oh my bad, I read that as monthly.

Marmite were the seventh most destructive alliance in EVE last month, Red and Blue republics were 4th and 5th.
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#196 - 2014-12-04 11:38:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Destiny Corrupted
Right, I don't dispute that they're in the upper echelons. I'm just saying that as part of the total, they're just a small fraction. Marmite is a small fraction as well, because the total is actually huge. The person to whom I originally presented the math to said that RvB accounted for 90% of all pvp destruction in high-sec, and that all other high-sec pvp is so insignificant in scope, that its removal wouldn't have any impact aside from making new players happier. Clearly that isn't true.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
King Fu Hostile
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#197 - 2014-12-04 12:20:43 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Right, I don't dispute that they're in the upper echelons. I'm just saying that as part of the total, they're just a small fraction. Marmite is a small fraction as well, because the total is actually huge. The person to whom I originally presented the math to said that RvB accounted for 90% of all pvp destruction in high-sec, and that all other high-sec pvp is so insignificant in scope, that its removal wouldn't have any impact aside from making new players happier. Clearly that isn't true.


I think you are confusing ganking mission runners, rookie ships and pods in Jita for PVP

RvB probably covers more than 90% of actual hisec fights

also, nobody gives a **** about isk values
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#198 - 2014-12-04 12:29:05 UTC
I'm not confusing anything; pvp is pvp, and neither party has to be willing.

Also, you're wrong and/or severely uninformed.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#199 - 2014-12-04 14:26:25 UTC
King Fu Hostile wrote:


RvB probably covers more than 90% of actual hisec fights



Citation needed.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
King Fu Hostile
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#200 - 2014-12-04 14:40:04 UTC
Go ahead and name some other PVP entity operating in hisec

See?