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[-MM-] The Masuat'aa - Our Way

Author
Tyrel Toov
Non-Hostile Target
#21 - 2014-12-02 01:21:35 UTC
Also, as per the breaking and reforging of alliances, I see no way in which that will end well. The Caldari will not suffer being in an alliance with the Gallente on behalf of the Minmatar (nor should they in my opnion). The Minmatar would be unwise to break ties with the Gallente to facilitate that alliance, and any shift in the current power balance would likely entail a war that would burn half the cluster out of existance. So, how about this instead: a cease fire between the Caldari and the Minmatar. We don't engage in your war, you stay out of ours. That is about the fairest deal that might be within the relm of reason.... even if it is a long shot.

I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.

Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#22 - 2014-12-02 03:08:04 UTC
Actually, what we really need to do is focus less on the Minmatar and Caldari - who are both intrinsically isolationist peoples - and focus on the two expansionist halves of this equation. If you can get the Amarrians to make assurances that satisfy the Minmatar and get the Gallente to make assurances that will satisfy the Caldari, the Caldari and Minmatar halves of these alliances would wither away quite naturally.

The Caldari and Gallente part of this has actually had great progress made on it, of late. With the staged return of Home to Caldari control, and the security of the Luminaire system under Gallente control, tensions are starting to ebb.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Tyrel Toov
Non-Hostile Target
#23 - 2014-12-02 03:49:53 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Actually, what we really need to do is focus less on the Minmatar and Caldari - who are both intrinsically isolationist peoples - and focus on the two expansionist halves of this equation. If you can get the Amarrians to make assurances that satisfy the Minmatar and get the Gallente to make assurances that will satisfy the Caldari, the Caldari and Minmatar halves of these alliances would wither away quite naturally.

The Caldari and Gallente part of this has actually had great progress made on it, of late. With the staged return of Home to Caldari control, and the security of the Luminaire system under Gallente control, tensions are starting to ebb.

I would like to agree with this, but I feel it's going to be a bit too much to ask for the Amarr to make the assurances needed to satisfy. You get to deal with humans and the most liberal/ideological ADHD empire in the cluster. We got stuck in a quagmire of a religious crusade with the Amarr. Have you ever tried to call a God to the deplomacy table? The jerk can't even be troubled to respond, that ass seems to think he's above us....

I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.

Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#24 - 2014-12-02 04:00:29 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Actually, what we really need to do is focus less on the Minmatar and Caldari - who are both intrinsically isolationist peoples - and focus on the two expansionist halves of this equation. If you can get the Amarrians to make assurances that satisfy the Minmatar and get the Gallente to make assurances that will satisfy the Caldari, the Caldari and Minmatar halves of these alliances would wither away quite naturally.


The expansionist halves in this war are the Minmatar and Caldari, Pieter. Your nations broke the treaties that had been in effect since the founding of CONCORD. It is the Minmatar and the Caldari who should be making assurances to the Amarr and Gallente. Your "isolationist" nations are the unreliable ones in this conflict, since both of you have proven how little your word is worth.

Amarr made many concessions to the Republic. We recognized them as a sovereign power, we ended military expansionism, we even released and delivered millions of slaves to them. His Holiness Heideran VII, may he rest in peace, was recognized by the international community as a leader in the pursuit of interstellar peace.

It is not us that broke our commitments to peace.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#25 - 2014-12-02 04:54:11 UTC
I've heard this theory of yours before, Samira, and I maintain that anyone surprised that we'd take a crack at getting Home back is a moron. Certainly the Gallente Federation must have known that we would. What surprised them wasn't that we would, it was that we could.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Tyrel Toov
Non-Hostile Target
#26 - 2014-12-02 04:58:26 UTC
Samira Kernher wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Actually, what we really need to do is focus less on the Minmatar and Caldari - who are both intrinsically isolationist peoples - and focus on the two expansionist halves of this equation. If you can get the Amarrians to make assurances that satisfy the Minmatar and get the Gallente to make assurances that will satisfy the Caldari, the Caldari and Minmatar halves of these alliances would wither away quite naturally.


The expansionist halves in this war are the Minmatar and Caldari, Pieter. Your nations broke the treaties that had been in effect since the founding of CONCORD. It is the Minmatar and the Caldari who should be making assurances to the Amarr and Gallente. Your "isolationist" nations are the unreliable ones in this conflict, since both of you have proven how little your word is worth.

Amarr made many concessions to the Republic. We recognized them as a sovereign power, we ended military expansionism, we even released and delivered millions of slaves to them. His Holiness Heideran VII, may he rest in peace, was recognized by the international community as a leader in the pursuit of interstellar peace.

It is not us that broke our commitments to peace.

The concessions that were made were pitiful. Millions freed and returned? What about the other Billions you enslaved or killed in your conquest of our people? The countless generations of our people who never got to experance their true heritige and culture? Where's the reperations for them, for the slaves still in holding? You really think you can buy off the ire of a nation by giving back a mere fraction of what you stole from it to begin with? What a foolish idea.

I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.

Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#27 - 2014-12-02 05:38:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Samira Kernher
Well those concessions were agreed to by the Republic, when your leaders signed the treaties a century ago. It was agreed, by both nations, that we would end our state of war, the Empire would recognize the Republic's sovereignty (conceding a significant portion of our territory in the process), and that we would no longer engage in slavery outside of our borders. In return, the Republic, your leaders, promised to drop your claim on the remaining minmatar in the Empire and to respect our own sovereignty and our right to manage our own internal affairs. This was agreed, it was signed, and we shook hands. And after that, we traded, we allowed corporations to set up stations in each other's space, we worked together to combat pirates and terrorists like Nation, illegal slavers, Tetrimon cultists, and the Defiants and Bloody Hands.

Then Shakor came into power and ruined all of that.

Is it foolish to expect that people uphold the contracts that they agreed to? I guess so. I guess it was foolish to actually believe that there was any lasting integrity in the Minmatar.

The Empire isn't the "status quo" claimed in the original post. No, we're the "enemy through your own fault", because you had real peace and decided to throw it away.


And Pieter, "they should have seen it coming" doesn't rationalize breaking one's word.
Tyrel Toov
Non-Hostile Target
#28 - 2014-12-02 06:16:30 UTC
If I recall, you have another document you hold in even higher regard then our treaty that says we are to be "reclaimed". How long will it be untill you deside to honor that? Whatever treaty we sign with you, as long as you maintain slavery as part of your religion, we can't trust you to honor it forever. Why shouldn't we strike at every available opportunity? Should we just sit back and wait untill your church desides it's time to carry out Gods will again?

I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.

Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#29 - 2014-12-02 06:29:28 UTC
We've had that conversation as well, Samira. I agree we broke our word, but I don't question the necessity of doing so when the chance presented itself.

Honour? Our ancestors would turn their backs on us if we traded Home for such a nebulous thing. I'd sell my honour in a heartbeat if it meant food for a child, freedom for a prisoner or life for a kirjuun. Perhaps you have to rise up on a hard world to get that. The Matari understand that.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#30 - 2014-12-02 06:43:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Samira Kernher
Tyrel Toov wrote:
If I recall, you have another document you hold in even higher regard then our treaty that says we are to be "reclaimed". How long will it be untill you deside to honor that? Whatever treaty we sign with you, as long as you maintain slavery as part of your religion, we can't trust you to honor it forever. Why shouldn't we strike at every available opportunity? Should we just sit back and wait untill your church desides it's time to carry out Gods will again?


We are honoring it. We are carrying out God's will. We never stopped.

There are more weapons in God's arsenal than lasers. You can Reclaim by Word and Example just as much as you can Reclaim by Sword.

There is no one in this universe that you can trust more to honor agreements. Deception is the greatest sin. When Amarr gives its word, we keep it. To do less is to disgrace ourselves before God.
Mizhara Del'thul
Kyn'aldrnari
#31 - 2014-12-02 09:01:26 UTC
The question simply becomes which takes precedense and who are in power at the time. The method of reclaiming and who will be targeted is a rather political matter and there's no denying that there are many potential powers in the Empire that would prefer to try re-enacting the day of darkness over the less honest and more vile method of indoctrination.

I'll never pretend the Tribes didn't break the treaties they agreed to. I'll never pretend we haven't been aggressors in many of the conflicts we've been embroiled in over the decades. It'd be rather naive to pretend the Empire wouldn't find a way to weasel their way out of the same if they saw benefit in it.

The shadow of the Empire has fallen on most of New Eden and where it fell, things grew. Slavery and bondage. Suffering and resentment. A millennia of peace, the longest recorded in human history as far as I know, on the ancestral homeworld of both you and me, Little Kin... turned into horror, enslavement and ultimately war as the shadow of the empire fell on it.

You're quite right that the Republic was the nation that broke the treaties and attacked. The Tribes as they are now... me, as I am now... even you as you are now are all creations of the Empire's violence, indoctrination, subjugation and terror. I can imagine the New Eden cluster if the Empire had stayed within their own space. I can imagine what kind of people the Tribes would be now, if we had been able to continue our millennia long period of peaceful co-existence and gentle drive forwards. Of course, that is not what happened. The darkness fell and surrounded us. Molded us.

So we attacked. We are what you made us. An enemy that will never be other than an enemy as long as you do to others what you tried so hard to do with the Tribes. The crime you committed, the vicious murder of peace and the theft of almost all of our people, can simply not be forgiven. It is too grievous. Too unspeakably horrifying. You created a nation so wounded, so viciously struck that there can be no peace as long as the wound remains salted with your slavery and reclaiming - no matter the form it takes. You created individuals in numbers beyond counting that simply can not rest while it is so.

The wounds might heal, in time. Peace may return, in time. For that to happen, there can be no more slaves in the Empire, salting the wounds. Tearing them back up with every reminder of what you tried to make us. What ultimately grew in the shadow that falls from the Empire is an enemy that will never cease being your enemy until you either change, or we all die.

And many of us are now immortal.
Diana Kim
Saitsuo Interstellar Security
State Public Defenders
#32 - 2014-12-02 13:12:16 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Marus Sulla wrote:

Diana I give you the perfect example.

When the Matari rose up the Gallente reached out a helping hand. What did you do ?

History will judge us all. Don't be on the wrong side.

Marus


When the Caldari rose up nobody reached out a helping hand. We did for you what you did for us.

Then you declared war on US. And now you've blamed US for it.

History is certainly going to judge you. I'm judging you fairly hard right now, too.

I am sorry, Tuulinen-haan, but I believe you are incorrect.
When we rose up, many other nations in the Federation started to rebel against Gallentean rule.
There were riots and protests all over federation, but they were stomped down to the ground.

And it is now our turn to return them our debt, because they managed to pull some of Gallentean armed forces towards them.
I have dedicated a whole discussion to this problem: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=381926&find=unread

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Kyllsa Siikanen
Tuonelan Virta
#33 - 2014-12-02 13:21:13 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
I've heard this theory of yours before, Samira, and I maintain that anyone surprised that we'd take a crack at getting Home back is a moron. Certainly the Gallente Federation must have known that we would. What surprised them wasn't that we would, it was that we could.


Those same people were surprised when we came for the Starkmanir.

Ostriches do hide their heads in holes, and convince themselves that they're safe from predators.

“Crying is all right in its own way while it lasts. But you have to stop sooner or later, and then you still have to decide what to do.” 

― C.S. Lewis 

Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#34 - 2014-12-02 15:31:40 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:

I am sorry, Tuulinen-haan, but I believe you are incorrect.
When we rose up, many other nations in the Federation started to rebel against Gallentean rule.
There were riots and protests all over federation, but they were stomped down to the ground.

And it is now our turn to return them our debt, because they managed to pull some of Gallentean armed forces towards them.
I have dedicated a whole discussion to this problem: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=381926&find=unread


You know what? You're right. When the Federation attacked Home there were many who spoke out - even if it took the destruction of Hueroment to unite them into a political force that could actually stop the worst of the madness. There are some we owe debts to - some Intaki, the Achurans and others who acted according to their consciences.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Soren Tyrhanos
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#35 - 2014-12-02 20:29:31 UTC
Kyllsa Siikanen wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
I've heard this theory of yours before, Samira, and I maintain that anyone surprised that we'd take a crack at getting Home back is a moron. Certainly the Gallente Federation must have known that we would. What surprised them wasn't that we would, it was that we could.


Those same people were surprised when we came for the Starkmanir.

Ostriches do hide their heads in holes, and convince themselves that they're safe from predators.


Predators? Your people? No..... merely, in this instance, prey who fled the field before the might of our Empress.
Tyrel Toov
Non-Hostile Target
#36 - 2014-12-02 21:20:36 UTC
Soren Tyrhanos wrote:
Kyllsa Siikanen wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
I've heard this theory of yours before, Samira, and I maintain that anyone surprised that we'd take a crack at getting Home back is a moron. Certainly the Gallente Federation must have known that we would. What surprised them wasn't that we would, it was that we could.


Those same people were surprised when we came for the Starkmanir.

Ostriches do hide their heads in holes, and convince themselves that they're safe from predators.


Predators? Your people? No..... merely, in this instance, prey who fled the field before the might of our Empress.

Tactical withdrawal.

I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.

Soren Tyrhanos
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#37 - 2014-12-02 22:14:02 UTC
Tyrel Toov wrote:
Soren Tyrhanos wrote:
Kyllsa Siikanen wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
I've heard this theory of yours before, Samira, and I maintain that anyone surprised that we'd take a crack at getting Home back is a moron. Certainly the Gallente Federation must have known that we would. What surprised them wasn't that we would, it was that we could.


Those same people were surprised when we came for the Starkmanir.

Ostriches do hide their heads in holes, and convince themselves that they're safe from predators.


Predators? Your people? No..... merely, in this instance, prey who fled the field before the might of our Empress.

Tactical withdrawal.


Fair assessment and a brilliant manner of phrasing "rout".
Mizhara Del'thul
Kyn'aldrnari
#38 - 2014-12-03 08:11:43 UTC
I wonder how it will be phrased the next time the pendulum swings. Again.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#39 - 2014-12-03 16:23:43 UTC
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:
I wonder how it will be phrased the next time the pendulum swings. Again.


My experience tells me it will be phrased EXACTLY the same way, just by different people. And the people who are the loudest in saying "Amarr Victor" now will be the loudest in decrying the results of the other side, later. And vice versa.

When success depends so little on the loyalists on either side and more on where the smart money goes to make a fast Isk, it's wise not to waste too much breath boasting or raging. There's little consistency in the warzone.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Diana Kim
Saitsuo Interstellar Security
State Public Defenders
#40 - 2014-12-04 19:28:08 UTC
I prefer to hope that the space will stay secured from further Minmatar invasion and criminality.
The role of militias is not just to capture systems, but also to defend them from being captured.
And thus it is our responsibility as well to prevent good civilians from being oppressed by Gallentean and Minmatar occupation, that replaces culture and prosperity with chaos and devastation.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

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