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Tora Bushido for CSM X - A New High-Sec (No Nerfed Disneyland)

First post First post
Author
Meilandra Vanderganken
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#41 - 2014-12-03 21:45:23 UTC
Tora Bushido wrote:
Your thoughts about a 1 minute timer for people who steal loot ? So they cant dock up right away.

Hell, why not let them have 15 minute auto-eject from station timer too? Roll
Black Pedro
Mine.
#42 - 2014-12-03 21:48:33 UTC
Tora Bushido wrote:
Quote:
increase the interaction with those that oppose ganking
Anything that will increase the interaction between gankers and anti-gankers is something I will support. Blue loot would be ok too. I mainly have an issue with freighter ganking right now. It's way to hard to protect yourself from it. Even if a freighter hires Marmites to camp the entire system, escort if from A to B, it's still easy to gank it. Mining barges can at least be pvp fitted as bait, align, etc.


Ok then, what changes would make an escort more useful to protect a freighter? Any ideas that could make even a small escort completely protect a freighter from a gank?

There are already some strategies you can use like ECM, repping or webbing a freighter into warp, but maybe there is something else that would be more useful?

I agree people who go to the trouble of hiring an escort/bringing friends should be much safer from a gank. What additional game mechanics could we add to the game to make this happen?
Tora Bushido
The Marmite Mercenaries
P I R A T
#43 - 2014-12-03 22:07:37 UTC
Meilandra Vanderganken wrote:
Tora Bushido wrote:
Your thoughts about a 1 minute timer for people who steal loot ? So they cant dock up right away.

Hell, why not let them have 15 minute auto-eject from station timer too? Roll
Maybe you should stop crying about how bad things are in Eve and start coming with solutions ? It easy to shout from the sideline, much harder to be constructive. As I said before, being a CSM isnt about having all the answers to Eve problems. It's listening to good idea's from the community, finding common grounds, filtering the "Ohhh everything is so badddd" cries, ignoring the trolls and trying to make things better in Eve for all of us.

TLDR : Stop Whining, start being constructive. Blink

DELETE THE WEAK, ADAPT OR DIE !

Meta Gaming Level VII, Psycho Warfare Level X, Smack Talk Level VII.

Lorelei Ierendi
Lorelei for C S M
#44 - 2014-12-03 22:11:27 UTC
Black Pedro wrote:
Tora Bushido wrote:
Quote:
increase the interaction with those that oppose ganking
Anything that will increase the interaction between gankers and anti-gankers is something I will support. Blue loot would be ok too. I mainly have an issue with freighter ganking right now. It's way to hard to protect yourself from it. Even if a freighter hires Marmites to camp the entire system, escort if from A to B, it's still easy to gank it. Mining barges can at least be pvp fitted as bait, align, etc.


Ok then, what changes would make an escort more useful to protect a freighter? Any ideas that could make even a small escort completely protect a freighter from a gank?

There are already some strategies you can use like ECM, repping or webbing a freighter into warp, but maybe there is something else that would be more useful?

I agree people who go to the trouble of hiring an escort/bringing friends should be much safer from a gank. What additional game mechanics could we add to the game to make this happen?


A self destruct module that is guaranteed to destroy ALL cargo and fittings? If not AFK... then no profit for gankers!

http://hisec-carebear.blogspot.de/

Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#45 - 2014-12-03 22:27:36 UTC
Tora Bushido wrote:
Dersen Lowery wrote:
Sorry, but if my kid's in trouble, I'm not going to do a damn thing in the game first.

Same here, but then again, I wouldn't cry about a lose or any game mechanic when I get shot when that happens. You already have the same 'problem' now in Eve. Some click-able button won't make a difference.

Quote:
Do I want to play that game ?

Yes. To long AFK while logged on in Eve is bad. We all have our interruptions while we play Eve (bio, wife agro, need a beer, door bell, phone, etc), but if they take to much time >>> Auto Log Off.


The funny thing is, somehow you've come around (mostly) to my position. Auto log off is vastly preferable to stupid modal dialog boxes.

And I realize that I'm not voting for you to get your exact current ideas implemented; I'm asking questions to see how you think, because that matters.

I'm not sure about no-autorepeat-ever, though. Maybe only some things can auto-repeat? I know that one of the attractions that this game has for me, at my age and with my complete lack of experience in high-adrenaline videogames, is that it doesn't require twitch play. Its RTS quality is appealing. I'd want to find some middle ground between mashing F1 all the time because of the fast ROF on small blasters, and the set-and-forget RR sentry Dominix.

Re: ganking, I posted a thing in Radu Lupescu's CSM thread. The relevant bit is:

Dersen Lowery wrote:
[T]he problem isn't that there is risk--without risk, there is hardly any gameplay at all to logistics, it's just overhead--but that the gameplay options created by the current risks are lacking.

[...]

[I]f you're caught, you're helpless--I think that, as much as any real or perceived risk, is what generates so much rage. If you jump through a gate and land on grid with a bumping Mach... oh, well. You're not burning back to gate. You're not MJDing away. You're not pulsing your MWD to evade the bump. You're just sitting there, indulging in what amounts to AFK gameplay: watching as control of your billion-ISK box is taken away from you, just like that.

The generally proffered solution--alts--are a) something of a plague already; b) only substituted by real people at a much higher scheduling difficulty and risk; c) about to become more of a hassle with freighter pilots having to duel-request their webbing alts. (I wonder which will be the first ganker to duel-request an obvious webbing pilot at just the right time to trick them into accepting the wrong duel? Can you even be in two duels at once?)

[...]

Outside of high sec, bumping usually precedes O HAI PANDEMIC LEGION, freighters are even more hapless at gates when they're bubbled [...], and of course the idea of a convoy defending a freighter, like so many other great ideas, dies ignominiously in the face of fleet alpha and the lack of any line-of-sight mechanics. And outside of high sec, you can bring much more expensive alpha if you choose to.


All this is a way of asking whether the problem is actually the fact of (high sec) violence, or the fact that it frequently breaks down to an actor absolutely controlling a target to the point where the target is effectively just an observer--which is not compelling gameplay, right? This isn't just about putting high slots on freighters (I'm not suggesting that!), it's about looking at ways to take away that completely helpless feeling where possible.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!

Capt Starfox
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#46 - 2014-12-03 22:45:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Capt Starfox
Dersen Lowery wrote:


Re: ganking, I posted a thing in Radu Lupescu's CSM thread. The relevant bit is:

Dersen Lowery wrote:
[T]he problem isn't that there is risk--without risk, there is hardly any gameplay at all to logistics, it's just overhead--but that the gameplay options created by the current risks are lacking.

[...]

[I]f you're caught, you're helpless--I think that, as much as any real or perceived risk, is what generates so much rage. If you jump through a gate and land on grid with a bumping Mach... oh, well. You're not burning back to gate. You're not MJDing away. You're not pulsing your MWD to evade the bump. You're just sitting there, indulging in what amounts to AFK gameplay: watching as control of your billion-ISK box is taken away from you, just like that.

The generally proffered solution--alts--are a) something of a plague already; b) only substituted by real people at a much higher scheduling difficulty and risk; c) about to become more of a hassle with freighter pilots having to duel-request their webbing alts. (I wonder which will be the first ganker to duel-request an obvious webbing pilot at just the right time to trick them into accepting the wrong duel? Can you even be in two duels at once?)

[...]

Outside of high sec, bumping usually precedes O HAI PANDEMIC LEGION, freighters are even more hapless at gates when they're bubbled [...], and of course the idea of a convoy defending a freighter, like so many other great ideas, dies ignominiously in the face of fleet alpha and the lack of any line-of-sight mechanics. And outside of high sec, you can bring much more expensive alpha if you choose to.


All this is a way of asking whether the problem is actually the fact of (high sec) violence, or the fact that it frequently breaks down to an actor absolutely controlling a target to the point where the target is effectively just an observer--which is not compelling gameplay, right? This isn't just about putting high slots on freighters (I'm not suggesting that!), it's about looking at ways to take away that completely helpless feeling where possible.



1. Check route (F10 is great at this and so is Dotlan).
2. Don't carry over 500m/isk worth of space stuff; 1b/isk tops.
3. Fit tank, I hear Reinforced Bulkheads work wonders.
4. Use a web; despite what you say about the dueling issue... You only need to duel request once if you do it right.

As an active Bumping Mach pilot there are 2 ways to make me avoid you and both of those are listed above. Stop being lazy.

Abandon all hope ye who x up in fleet

Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#47 - 2014-12-03 23:27:01 UTC
I was expecting Tora to be a voice for competitive gameplay in highsec.


Instead we have self-interest disguised as protecting newbies (increased wardec fees are something Marmites can afford but their smaller competition cannot, so it will make them more hegemonic in predatory wardecs). We have some of the most extreme suggestions for nerfing ganking that have been made by anyone not named Veers Belvar, and we have no suggestions to teach newbies how to defend themselves from predators.


I retract my previous endorsement and apologize to the EVE community for my poor judgement in having made it.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com

Lorelei Ierendi
Lorelei for C S M
#48 - 2014-12-03 23:30:25 UTC
Capt Starfox wrote:

2. Don't carry over 500m/isk worth of space stuff; 1b/isk tops.
3. Fit tank, I hear Reinforced Bulkheads work wonders.



Does LOYALANON know that?

http://hisec-carebear.blogspot.de/

Capt Starfox
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#49 - 2014-12-04 00:08:05 UTC
Yep.

Abandon all hope ye who x up in fleet

Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#50 - 2014-12-04 00:13:07 UTC
I'm more interested in what Tora has to say about wardeccs than about ganking. Right now my impression is that wardeccs are close to useless. Smart defenders just roll corp, or stick to NPC corps. The only ones who actually fight are the ones run by egocentric CEOs exploiting new players. There is no punishment for just docking up and playing on alts for a week. This makes wars effectively worthless in highsec. Do you have any proposals other than making it more expensive to wardecc small corps, which is easily exploitable and doesn't really deal with how fundamentally useless wars are right now?
Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#51 - 2014-12-04 02:05:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Dersen Lowery
Capt Starfox wrote:

1. Check route (F10 is great at this and so is Dotlan).
2. Don't carry over 500m/isk worth of space stuff; 1b/isk tops.
3. Fit tank, I hear Reinforced Bulkheads work wonders.
4. Use a web; despite what you say about the dueling issue... You only need to duel request once if you do it right.

As an active Bumping Mach pilot there are 2 ways to make me avoid you and both of those are listed above. Stop being lazy.


Stop being lazy and picking assumptions out of thin air just because they favor your argument.

I know all of this (oh, and I don't even fly freighters myself; I just know people who do). But all you've done here is dodge the question. First of all, there are no guarantees, even if you do everything right. Second, you ignored where I said that alts are a plague. Any solution that relies on alts is lazy. Third, what the hell use is a freighter that can't carry more than 500m ISK? and it doesn't matter anyway, because empty freighters get blown up.

If you're ~not supposed~ to even fill them with ore, they've become useless, and they should be removed from the game.

The risk/reward is still off--despite your confident assertions, AFK freightering is still worth considering, which if you're a CSM candidate looking to reduce AFK gameplay is not a good thing; and the gameplay when things go wrong is still terrible.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!

BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#52 - 2014-12-04 05:31:18 UTC
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
I was expecting Tora to be a voice for competitive gameplay in highsec.


Instead we have self-interest disguised as protecting newbies (increased wardec fees are something Marmites can afford but their smaller competition cannot, so it will make them more hegemonic in predatory wardecs). We have some of the most extreme suggestions for nerfing ganking that have been made by anyone not named Veers Belvar, and we have no suggestions to teach newbies how to defend themselves from predators.


I retract my previous endorsement and apologize to the EVE community for my poor judgement in having made it.


I had a productive conversation with Tora today about ganking, and it sounds like he is willing to consider counter points on this. That said, I am still trying to decide if I would vote for him or not. Please keep in mind that he specified that those restrictions would only apply to gankers in NPC corps, but it is obvious that he is not particularly familiar with ganking mechanics as they pertain to negative sec status gankers.

Founder of Violet Squadron, a small gang NPSI community! Mail me for more information.

BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie's Space Mediation Service!

Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#53 - 2014-12-04 05:59:04 UTC
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie wrote:
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
I was expecting Tora to be a voice for competitive gameplay in highsec.


Instead we have self-interest disguised as protecting newbies (increased wardec fees are something Marmites can afford but their smaller competition cannot, so it will make them more hegemonic in predatory wardecs). We have some of the most extreme suggestions for nerfing ganking that have been made by anyone not named Veers Belvar, and we have no suggestions to teach newbies how to defend themselves from predators.


I retract my previous endorsement and apologize to the EVE community for my poor judgement in having made it.


I had a productive conversation with Tora today about ganking, and it sounds like he is willing to consider counter points on this. That said, I am still trying to decide if I would vote for him or not. Please keep in mind that he specified that those restrictions would only apply to gankers in NPC corps, but it is obvious that he is not particularly familiar with ganking mechanics as they pertain to negative sec status gankers.




If he changes his platform to something more agreeable, I will reassess my position.

At present, I feel his proposals are worse than the status quo, and also heavily favor one specific style of highsec predatory prey (the Marmite model of a large coalition using wardecs to extort protection money and to harass nullbears that visit highsec) at the expense of crippling others (small wardec organisations, for-profit ganking, extortion-based ganking).

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com

Justin Zaine
#54 - 2014-12-04 06:45:57 UTC
Quote:
I feel his proposals are worse than the status quo, and also heavily favor one specific style of highsec predatory prey (the Marmite model of a large coalition using wardecs to extort protection money and to harass nullbears that visit highsec) at the expense of crippling others (small wardec organisations, for-profit ganking, extortion-based ganking).


This.

Contrary to what someone else has said, anybody that supports the idea of content generation and competetive gameplay in HS should NOT vote for Tora.

He will win who knows when to fight and when not to fight.

He will win who, prepared himself, waits to take the enemy unprepared.

Amyclas Amatin
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#55 - 2014-12-04 06:56:15 UTC
I don't think being afk is a problem in itself, as long as players can mop up those who aren't being careful.

For more information on the New Order of High-Sec, please visit: http://www.minerbumping.com/

Remember that whenever you have a bad day in EVE, the correct reponse is "Thank you CCP, may I please have another?"

Saeger1737
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#56 - 2014-12-04 07:11:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Saeger1737
No, out of principle.

MERC WITH A MOUTH, Send me DPS and my fleet will double it back! Special offer!

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
#57 - 2014-12-04 08:48:39 UTC
Honestly, I believe it would be a serious blow to the CSM and the future of EVE if somebody like Tora were to secure a place.

I see that already you are suggesting serious nerfs to Ganking and a token change to wardecs (in the hope that no further changes will be made no doubt), when in reality one of the biggest problems with wardecs is that it's paying to gank without losses, and groups like Marmite are easily able to wardec hundreds of groups at a time, devaluing the entire mechanic.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Thomas Mayaki
Perkone
Caldari State
#58 - 2014-12-04 11:13:50 UTC
+1

Not too sure about your solutions but at least you acknowledge there is a problem with the interaction between gankees and the gankers. Passively tanking ships in order to prevent ganks is as dull as dishwater and places all the power with the gankers, who may choose to or not to gank your ship at a time that suits them.

So an interesting candidate for highsec.
Snake Fist Style
Doomheim
#59 - 2014-12-04 12:50:07 UTC
I've ragged on Marmite before, but I do have a lot of respect for Tora and as such he'll be getting vote.
Meilandra Vanderganken
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#60 - 2014-12-04 13:06:17 UTC
Tora Bushido wrote:
Meilandra Vanderganken wrote:
Tora Bushido wrote:
Your thoughts about a 1 minute timer for people who steal loot ? So they cant dock up right away.

Hell, why not let them have 15 minute auto-eject from station timer too? Roll
Maybe you should stop crying about how bad things are in Eve and start coming with solutions ? It easy to shout from the sideline, much harder to be constructive. As I said before, being a CSM isnt about having all the answers to Eve problems. It's listening to good idea's from the community, finding common grounds, filtering the "Ohhh everything is so badddd" cries, ignoring the trolls and trying to make things better in Eve for all of us.

TLDR : Stop Whining, start being constructive. Blink


I'm not the one complaining about 'how bad things are in EVE' sir, that seems to be your department. Lol In fact, I think EVE is in the best state in years currently.

But for your pleasure, a less sarcastic reply on your idea of having a 1 minute (or any lenght of time) non-dock timer for 'stealing':

As with your non-dock timer for gankers, the effect will be the same. Hiding in safespots but even easier, as the looter will still be in his ship which will most probably be fitted with a cloak now. Warp to safe spot, cloak, scratch your nut sack 2 times and dock up. Even easier than sitting out the 1 minute timer after a gank (which you can't do cloaked). It will not add any opportunity to catch thieves that isn't already there. It will not motivate ppl who aren't willing to hunt thieves NOW to do so AFTER your proposed change. So again: no gameplay added, just made it a bit more tedious (again) for hi sec pirates/thieves/gankers/whatever you want to call them, one step closer again to 'nerfing EVE to death'.

Not only will no gameplay be added by this idea, it will raise the threshhold for newer players to get into stuff like piracy. To noobs that not yet have any understanding of safe spots, insta-undocks and docks, a one minute no docking timer can look pretty off putting I can imagine.

Your ideas on high sec criminal offenses fit nicely into the "One More Nerf"-category. You say "I want there to be ganking, I want there to be stealing, but it's just to easy now so let's nerf it (again)." After your ideas are implemented, there will still be ganking and thieving and surprised by that, the carebear community will once again ask for "One More Nerf", continuing this cycle until hi sec criminal behavior is scrapped from the game mechanics or becomes so tedious hardly anyone bothers with it anymore, effectively scrapping it from the game. After that will come the whining about someone else mining 'your' asteroid (seriously, I've seen miners complain about that numerous times in the chat channels), shooting 'your' mission rats, running 'your' site (again, complained about frequently in chats) etc etc.

As for being a CSM. I don't expect any CSM to have perfect ideas and answers to every (percieved) 'problem'. But if you're positioning yourself as "hi sec candidate" I do expect you to be in touch with the hi sec playerbase (that includes hi sec criminals) and have some vision on how ideas work out in practice. Which you seem to lack completely.. That's not me trying to insult you or defending my own ganking interests, I'm just telling you how your ideas will affect the game, not in a good manner....

As for freighter ganking, how on earth is that 'too easy'? Even with antitanked freighters you still need a sizeable fleet to take one out. You can't just undock on your own saying "think I'm gonna gank me a freighter to kill some time all by myself with just my 2 alts!". If it was that easy, we'd be seeing a lot more of it.

Loot nerf so ppl won't gank for profit anymore? Well, it might surprise you but contrary to popular carebear beliefs most ganks are not carried out for profit, any profit is just gravy for most.

On ganking nerfs in general: every time you make it harder to gank something the reaction from the ganking community will be the same: more organized ganking (the irony) and more attention paid to weaker targets. Nerf freighter ganking, more attention will go to smaller targets like mission runners, miners, industrials, shuttles, pods etc etc. In general, it will be more targeted at noobs too. I myself have little problem with ganking noobs (gank 'm while they are young so they learn early what EVE is about and decreasing the chance they will become theme park minded carebears), but you will be increasing the gap between older players (who can fly tanked fast freighters and T2 tanked blockade runners and transports) and the young who have little knowledge of damage mechanics and tanking and aren't able to fly and fit stuff that will reduce their chance of being killed yet. I think EVE can do without anything else that will give more advantages to older players and will shaft the younger players.

In a nutshell, I think your ideas are bad and not well thought out. Not bad as in "well, the core principle is good but we need to tweak the numbers a bit to keep it balanced", no, I think the core principle are bad, for reasons I have stated.