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The Forsaken Asylum alliance doesn´t honor ransoms

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aSacHorYu
Ministry of War
#1 - 2014-11-28 16:03:57 UTC
[15:41:49] Luukje > hey
[15:41:52] aSacHorYu > hi
[15:41:59] Luukje > we can let you go for 2 bil ransom
[15:42:02] Luukje > we do this for profit
[15:42:36] aSacHorYu > well i was a pirate so i hope you honnor ransoms
[15:42:45] Luukje > ofc
[15:42:48] Luukje > its for profit
[15:42:51] aSacHorYu > who do i send the cash?
[15:42:52] Luukje > killmails we get enough for ppl who dont pay
[15:42:56] Luukje > me is fine
[15:43:22] aSacHorYu > sent
[15:44:02] aSacHorYu > wel i guess you dont honnor ransoms ;(
[15:44:09] aSacHorYu > too bad tougth
[15:44:18] Luukje > hmm :(
[15:44:30] Luukje > we lost a sin killing you lol
[15:44:58] aSacHorYu > ..
[15:45:16] aSacHorYu > if that is your escuse that is fine
[15:48:44] Luukje > sorry for ur loss man :) hope you recover fast
[15:50:03] aSacHorYu > i will just dont pretend to be pirates and honor ransoms mate you are doing any good to the pirate comunnity
[15:50:14] aSacHorYu > *arent
[15:50:18] aSacHorYu > just saying

https://zkillboard.com/kill/42692951/

Take care and fly dangerously.
Zeus Maximo
Mentally Assured Destruction
#2 - 2014-11-28 16:14:37 UTC
Space honor is rare these days. Hire Mercs for revenge

"It is not possible either to trick or escape the mind of Zeus."

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aSacHorYu
Ministry of War
#3 - 2014-11-28 16:18:22 UTC
Zeus Maximo wrote:
Space honor is rare these days. Hire Mercs for revenge


Nah just Posting it here so that people know , they dont honor ransoms .

Agree space honor is indeed rare.
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#4 - 2014-11-28 16:50:01 UTC
This is just another example of why there needs to be a pirate code of conduct, so that pirates who do honor ransoms can join some large organization with other people committed to honesty and good faith. This will make piracy profitable again, instead of just a tearfest.
Kev Ftw
The Filthy Few
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#5 - 2014-11-28 17:08:41 UTC
They'd be more like guidelines.
Cannibal Kane
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#6 - 2014-11-28 17:09:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Cannibal Kane
Veers Belvar wrote:
This is just another example of why there needs to be a pirate code of conduct, so that pirates who do honor ransoms can join some large organization with other people committed to honesty and good faith. This will make piracy profitable again, instead of just a tearfest.


I honor ransoms...

And I will never join a group like that. Just the thought of joining a large org with other people committed to honesty and good faith is a contradiction in terms next to the word Pirate.

Stop it Veers. Your trolling is really starting to get a bit much now.

I still make isk from this and those same people are people that use me in turn for other things. You don't need some large org to label you. Sounds so mainstream.

"Kane is the End Boss of Highsec." -Psychotic Monk
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#7 - 2014-11-28 17:23:07 UTC
Cannibal Kane wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
This is just another example of why there needs to be a pirate code of conduct, so that pirates who do honor ransoms can join some large organization with other people committed to honesty and good faith. This will make piracy profitable again, instead of just a tearfest.


I honor ransoms...

And I will never join a group like that. Just the thought of joining a large org with other people committed to honesty and good faith is a contradiction in terms next to the word Pirate.

Stop it Veers. Your trolling is really starting to get a bit much now.

I still make isk from this and those same people are people that use me in turn for other things. You don't need some large org to label you. Sounds so mainstream.


That's because you are famous. People know they can pay you and you will honor ransoms. But how can a new pirate assure the same thing without a years long track record? I mean it's great that the system works for you, but how would you get it to work for other people? Accusing me of trolling isn't actually a solution....if you would like I can demonstrate to you why knowing that ransoms will be honored is game theory optimal for both pirates and prey.
Cannibal Kane
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#8 - 2014-11-28 17:57:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Cannibal Kane
The issue is time...

Sitting in the middle of space deciding if I need to blow up or pay is a second decision.

Putting anything in place will be counter productive. Unless there is a system in place where I can put default values on ships (100mil ransom for a Rokh for example) and the target that is scrammed (if he is flying a Rokh) selects pay where the 100mil isk is stored in escrow to be paid when the limited engagement timer between the 2 or party ends.

If a killmail is generated in that time isk goes back from escrow to target. If there is no killmail isk goes to the predator.

This guarantees a target gets paid. but you will prolly have people giving pirates a bad name another reason to cry.

On the trolling side though. Have you seen your reply to threads recently?

"Kane is the End Boss of Highsec." -Psychotic Monk
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#9 - 2014-11-28 18:16:10 UTC
Cannibal Kane wrote:
The issue is time...

Sitting in the middle of space deciding if I need to blow up or pay is a second decision.

Putting anything in place will be counter productive. Unless there is a system in place where I can put default values on ships (100mil ransom for a Rokh for example) and the target that is scrammed (if he is flying a Rokh) selects pay where the 100mil isk is stored in escrow to be paid when the limited engagement timer between the 2 or party ends.

If a killmail is generated in that time isk goes back from escrow to target. If there is no killmail isk goes to the predator.

This guarantees a target gets paid. but you will prolly have people giving pirates a bad name another reason to cry.

On the trolling side though. Have you seen your reply to threads recently?


Ok, by popular demand, I will give the economics a go. As far as "trolling," I absolutely honestly believe the things I right. The Grrr Veers you see is because people detest a PvE player proudly advocating for safer and more humane highsec. I know things didn't work out in the BU channel, but that was due to Solstice Project obsessing over me, and heavy handed moderation like Arden. The real trolls here are CODE, Marmite, Goons, etc... not me. Pay more attention and you will see that. I'm the victim, I'm getting wardecced and threatened, and I'm winning every time, ok?

As far as your value point...remember the pirate is the one who decided if there will be a ransom offered, and how much. You are free to use whatever system you would like...scan, no scan, whatever. Just throw out a number, give him 15 seconds, and if he doesn't pay, incinerate him. And let's be clear, if he knows there is a 100% chance of living if he pays, he will be more likely to pay.

As far as the economics....let's set it up as a standard 4 node game. Let's use, for example, a 1.5 bil freighter, with no cargo, and a pirate who demands a 500 million ransom.

The 4 nodes-

Ransom Paid / Ship Spared = pirate gets 500 mil, victim loses 0.
Ransom Paid / Ship destroyed = pirate gets 500 mil + fun, victim loses 1.5 bil.
Ransom Not Paid / Ship Destroyed = pirate gets 0 + fun, victim loses 1.5 bil.
Ranson Not Paid / Ship Spared = not possible.

Because there are only 3 possible nodes, it's easy to solve the game. The pirate is better off always destroying the ship. Given that, the victim is better off not paying. Result, pirate gets some lols (worth less than the 500 mil ransom), and victim loses his ship. Total social utility = -1.5 billion. Now imagine we set up a mechanism to achieve the Ransom Paid / Ship Spares node, which has a total social utility of +500 mil. Everyone is better off - the pirate gets a nice payday and only loses a bit of fun, and the victim gets to keep his expensive ship.

But wait...how do we get there? We have a major collective action problem. The individual pirate, upon receiving a ransom, has no reason to spare the ship, because his personal reputation is irrelevant...no one really knows who he is anyway. Result - victims won't pay. The only way to get people to pay ransoms is to create some credibly mechanism where they know there is a high probability of payment. In the instant case, it becomes +EV to pay when the chance of survival exceeds 33%.

The way to create that assurance of survival is to make some kind of pirate guild, where members promise to honor ransoms. Will it always work? No. But it will work enough of the time to make it +EV for victims to pay...just like they know if they pay Cannibal Kane...they will live. So too they should know when they pay someone from the "honorable pirates guild" that there is a high chance of survival. That will revitalize lowsec piracy and make it profitable again.

One of the things I loved about Eve was honorable pirates who abide by ransoms...and I would love to see that make a return. We all collectively can make it happen.
McChicken Combo HalfMayo
The Happy Meal
#10 - 2014-11-28 23:51:52 UTC  |  Edited by: McChicken Combo HalfMayo
“No one is exempt from the rule that learning occurs through recognition of error.”

https://zkillboard.com/kill/42485954/
https://zkillboard.com/kill/42669143/
https://zkillboard.com/kill/42669425/
https://zkillboard.com/kill/42692951/

There are all our dominion

Gate camps: "Its like the lowsec watercooler, just with explosions and boose" - Ralph King-Griffin
Miko Jin
HELVEGEN
#11 - 2014-11-28 23:54:09 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
Cannibal Kane wrote:
The issue is time...

Sitting in the middle of space deciding if I need to blow up or pay is a second decision.

Putting anything in place will be counter productive. Unless there is a system in place where I can put default values on ships (100mil ransom for a Rokh for example) and the target that is scrammed (if he is flying a Rokh) selects pay where the 100mil isk is stored in escrow to be paid when the limited engagement timer between the 2 or party ends.

If a killmail is generated in that time isk goes back from escrow to target. If there is no killmail isk goes to the predator.

This guarantees a target gets paid. but you will prolly have people giving pirates a bad name another reason to cry.

On the trolling side though. Have you seen your reply to threads recently?


Ok, by popular demand, I will give the economics a go. As far as "trolling," I absolutely honestly believe the things I right. The Grrr Veers you see is because people detest a PvE player proudly advocating for safer and more humane highsec. I know things didn't work out in the BU channel, but that was due to Solstice Project obsessing over me, and heavy handed moderation like Arden. The real trolls here are CODE, Marmite, Goons, etc... not me. Pay more attention and you will see that. I'm the victim, I'm getting wardecced and threatened, and I'm winning every time, ok?

As far as your value point...remember the pirate is the one who decided if there will be a ransom offered, and how much. You are free to use whatever system you would like...scan, no scan, whatever. Just throw out a number, give him 15 seconds, and if he doesn't pay, incinerate him. And let's be clear, if he knows there is a 100% chance of living if he pays, he will be more likely to pay.

As far as the economics....let's set it up as a standard 4 node game. Let's use, for example, a 1.5 bil freighter, with no cargo, and a pirate who demands a 500 million ransom.

The 4 nodes-

Ransom Paid / Ship Spared = pirate gets 500 mil, victim loses 0.
Ransom Paid / Ship destroyed = pirate gets 500 mil + fun, victim loses 1.5 bil.
Ransom Not Paid / Ship Destroyed = pirate gets 0 + fun, victim loses 1.5 bil.
Ranson Not Paid / Ship Spared = not possible.

Because there are only 3 possible nodes, it's easy to solve the game. The pirate is better off always destroying the ship. Given that, the victim is better off not paying. Result, pirate gets some lols (worth less than the 500 mil ransom), and victim loses his ship. Total social utility = -1.5 billion. Now imagine we set up a mechanism to achieve the Ransom Paid / Ship Spares node, which has a total social utility of +500 mil. Everyone is better off - the pirate gets a nice payday and only loses a bit of fun, and the victim gets to keep his expensive ship.

But wait...how do we get there? We have a major collective action problem. The individual pirate, upon receiving a ransom, has no reason to spare the ship, because his personal reputation is irrelevant...no one really knows who he is anyway. Result - victims won't pay. The only way to get people to pay ransoms is to create some credibly mechanism where they know there is a high probability of payment. In the instant case, it becomes +EV to pay when the chance of survival exceeds 33%.

The way to create that assurance of survival is to make some kind of pirate guild, where members promise to honor ransoms. Will it always work? No. But it will work enough of the time to make it +EV for victims to pay...just like they know if they pay Cannibal Kane...they will live. So too they should know when they pay someone from the "honorable pirates guild" that there is a high chance of survival. That will revitalize lowsec piracy and make it profitable again.

One of the things I loved about Eve was honorable pirates who abide by ransoms...and I would love to see that make a return. We all collectively can make it happen.


You talk too much Jibba Jabba.
Zeus Maximo
Mentally Assured Destruction
#12 - 2014-11-29 00:31:03 UTC
Honestly I've never been a fan of people that ransom and don't honor it. You will never catch me in a fleet that tries to pull p*ssy **** like that. If you are going to kill the ship, kill it. If you are so damn poor that you have to scam someone for isk then God forbid I hope whoever you are and whoever you associate yourself with is labeled as a scammer.

Knowing Scandor, I don't think he would approve of something like this. What merc wants to be called a scammer?

Petty ass poor scrubs. Pvp for the kills.

"It is not possible either to trick or escape the mind of Zeus."

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Omar Alharazaad
New Eden Tech Support
#13 - 2014-11-29 03:26:59 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
This is just another example of why there needs to be a pirate code of conduct, so that pirates who do honor ransoms can join some large organization with other people committed to honesty and good faith. This will make piracy profitable again, instead of just a tearfest.


The idea of codifying a set of ethics and putting into place mechanics to enforce them is interesting, but I think it might be hard to get it to work. Pirates are a pretty diverse crew of folk as it is, and I think many would rebel against the notion of being part of a massive 'union'. If you think the rallying of high sec miners to do anything productive is like herding cats, just try imagining how much more difficult it would be to keep thousands of freedom loving blackhearts to tow some kind of party line in this respect.

If you operate in a specific system/constellation for any real period of time the locals will come to recognize your works and respond accordingly. Granted, those who do not honor their ransoms do make things harder for those who do by burning their potential customers, but people really do need to develop their own reputations when it comes to these things. Pirate

Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.
Valkin Mordirc
#14 - 2014-11-29 03:47:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Valkin Mordirc
Forcing via an in game code, in a game where it's perfectly okay to not honor ransoms and be a right wanker, people to follow what you believe is right, is wrong Veers. If you hate people who don't honor ransoms so much, then why don't you do something about it? Rather than troll all over the forums.


EVE is a sandbox, you can do whatever you want, you just have to work for it, rather than sputtering about how there needs to be a "Code of Conduct" Because, that is completely, the opposite of EVE as it stands as a sandbox.
#DeleteTheWeak
Persifonne
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2014-11-29 04:54:33 UTC
You upset cuz 3 guys smarter than you managed to get 2bill drop and 2bill ransom and a 10bill km? Seems they are the smart ones. Theres gotta be a sheep for errrry wolf
Persifonne
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2014-11-29 04:56:11 UTC
Also i guarentee that next person in that situation with those people will have either never read this or forgotten it. This serves zero purpose you understand correct?
Xorphix
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#17 - 2014-11-29 09:30:43 UTC
As jealous as I am of that kill, Its pretty hilarious to see Forsaken Asylum resorting to such tactics to get their dictator, Scamdor, the iskies. I guess the rumors are true that FA's reputation has fallen by considerable magnitude...
Starrakatt
Empire Assault Corp
Dead Terrorists
#18 - 2014-11-29 14:24:05 UTC
Xorphix wrote:
As jealous as I am of that kill, Its pretty hilarious to see Forsaken Asylum resorting to such tactics to get their dictator, Scamdor, the iskies. I guess the rumors are true that FA's reputation has fallen by considerable magnitude...

Huh? First time I heard about this, please elaborate.

As for many of these freighters and jump freighters, dying in droves, yes... Some ex-Freight Club and similarly minded individuals joined us, I'd say they do a great job. Forsaken Asylum have a policy that the loot (and ransoms if the individuals concerned try to exact one) go to the pilots participating on the kill, excep in major fleet ops, where it goes to alliance.

For example, this goes into MY pockets.

Thank you for your time.

Big smile

Join Celtic Anarchy!

Sneaky bastard.
Xorphix
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#19 - 2014-11-29 18:13:40 UTC
Starrakatt wrote:
Xorphix wrote:
As jealous as I am of that kill, Its pretty hilarious to see Forsaken Asylum resorting to such tactics to get their dictator, Scamdor, the iskies. I guess the rumors are true that FA's reputation has fallen by considerable magnitude...

Huh? First time I heard about this, please elaborate.

As for many of these freighters and jump freighters, dying in droves, yes... Some ex-Freight Club and similarly minded individuals joined us, I'd say they do a great job. Forsaken Asylum have a policy that the loot (and ransoms if the individuals concerned try to exact one) go to the pilots participating on the kill, excep in major fleet ops, where it goes to alliance.

For example, this goes into MY pockets.

Thank you for your time.

Big smile


Thanks for your response. :)

Perhaps you could shed some light on why your alliance has shed a few corporations lately?

Also heard Cockroach left... :/
Luukje
The Vendetta Mercenaries
Vendetta Mercenary Group
#20 - 2014-11-29 20:34:52 UTC
So much jelly.
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