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Update regarding Multiboxing and input automation

First post First post First post
Author
MrBowers
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1781 - 2014-11-29 02:19:56 UTC  |  Edited by: MrBowers
No Data? No Proof it's hurting the game. Changing something which not better informing use why?

Guess I enjoy the plex prices dropping they say.....

So the higher plex prices aren't good in eve?? I mean **** i can buy more shine stuff...
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1782 - 2014-11-29 02:22:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Remiel Pollard
MrBowers wrote:
No Data? No Proof it's hurting the game. Changing something which not better informing use why?

Guess I enjoy the plex prices dropping they say.....


Do you really think CCP would intentionally harm their own game? If there is data that shows a good reason for this change, then only CCP need to see it to rationalise it. You just need to accept it if you still wanna play.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#1783 - 2014-11-29 02:22:52 UTC
Nolak Ataru wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Nolak Ataru wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
To expand on Mike's fine post....
Yes, about a 60% of having things go "right"--i.e. now screw ups. However, that 40% is not just 1 pilot screwing up it is:
1 pilot screwing up + 2 pilots screwing up + ... + all pilots screwing up.
And it means that the group of 10 is not as efficient over the long haul (where we can appeal to the law of large numbers) which ensures that the ISBoxer will be getting 95% of doing it "right" rewards plus whatever payouts accrue when not doing it "right". Whereas the 10 players will only get 60% of doing it right plus whatever "payouts" they accrue for not doing it "right".


You're failing to take into account the literal hours of effort that goes into setting up ISBoxer and making sure nothing is off by a single pixel. ISBoxer is not something you can "plug and play". Any variation in your windows or settings will cause problems with anything you do. If we take the hours taken to set up ISBoxer and "convert" it into raw hours of experience and playtime for each player, then we'd probably see the gap narrow by a significant margin.


No I'm not, that is a fixed cost and as such is not that important....except to note that it is yet another barrier to entry for many players meaning that it is a subset of the community that benefits. This is why the whining about Evemon and Fleet warping have gotten so tiresome for me. The latter 2 are easy to set up (fleet warp is so easy you don't even have to set it up) and there is no additional RL monetary cost.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but you just said I'm not allowed to multibox because someone else can't figure it out in 30 seconds? I'd like to quote Mark Twain right now: "Censorship is telling a man he can't have a steak just because a baby can't chew it."

There is no inherent barrier to multiboxing other than a willingness to start trying. If we follow your logic, nobody could PVP, WH, indy, incursion, or do anything because one person "may" not be good at it.


No, you can multibox all you want. I multibox too. The issue of multiboxing is not at issue.

What you cannot due is use 3rd party software to enhance your ability to acquire isk.

And what is it with you? If somebody doesn't have the time to set up ISBoxer they must be morons? Why is you have to always resort to the worst and most insulting response? Do you have absolutely zero social filter in real life too? My thinking was that there are lots of very intelligent players who may not have the hours you were just going on about to allocate towards setting up and fine tuning ISBoxer.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Bobbyd
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1784 - 2014-11-29 02:24:00 UTC
Nolak Ataru wrote:


Automation to the point of not requiring a person has always been banned. ISBoxer and broadcasting still needs a human being in the chair to function.



I completely understand the difference between an Automation and a repeater broadcast,

what I was asking can we use single broadcasts to clients from a third party tool to save having to alt tab to that screen each time to click onto the retrospective eve client, so no repeat to the click just a single broadcast click from a overlay control window to the retrospective client.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#1785 - 2014-11-29 02:25:39 UTC
Bobbyd wrote:
Nolak Ataru wrote:


Automation to the point of not requiring a person has always been banned. ISBoxer and broadcasting still needs a human being in the chair to function.



I completely understand the difference between an Automation and a repeater broadcast,

what I was asking can we use single broadcasts to clients from a third party tool to save having to alt tab to that screen each time to click onto the retrospective eve client, so no repeat to the click just a single broadcast click from a overlay control window to the retrospective client.


No, based on the OP CCP appears to be classifying that under automation of inputs.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

MrBowers
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1786 - 2014-11-29 02:26:11 UTC  |  Edited by: MrBowers
For one i think most of us can live with out broadcasting .... fleet warp and F key takes care of everything else :). IX BOXER just makes it easier to fit 10 clients on one screen it's awesome haha.... not hard to flip between screen ... 1 secs at most ....
Heinrich Rotwang
Spectre Fleet Corporation
#1787 - 2014-11-29 02:46:23 UTC
Chris Winter wrote:
What I'm trying to figure out is...why were all of you who claim that ISBoxer gives such a huge advantage not using it? It was explicitly allowed by CCP and costs less than a single EVE subscription.

So if it was so powerful in your minds...why weren't you using it?


Because I'm not a farmer.
Nolak Ataru
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#1788 - 2014-11-29 02:48:36 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
No, you can multibox all you want. I multibox too. The issue of multiboxing is not at issue.

What you cannot due is use 3rd party software to enhance your ability to acquire isk.

And what is it with you? If somebody doesn't have the time to set up ISBoxer they must be morons? Why is you have to always resort to the worst and most insulting response? Do you have absolutely zero social filter in real life too? My thinking was that there are lots of very intelligent players who may not have the hours you were just going on about to allocate towards setting up and fine tuning ISBoxer.


For the trillionth time: THE ACCELERATED ISK CLAUSE IS ON A PER TOON BASIS NOT A PER HUMAN BEING BASIS AS REPEATEDLY CONFIRMED BY CCP DEVS!
Your lack of reading comprehension (and subsequent reliance on circular logic) reveals to everyone your lack of thought on the subject and I must therefore call you a troll.

I never accused someone and I hold no ill will against someone who doesn't have the time to sink into ISBoxer a moron. Live and let live, I say. I personally am not very familiar with market PVP, but that doesn't mean I want to run around banning it.

My problem comes when ill informed troglodytes and peons rally behind a cause that they have no knowledge about, spend zero effort to think critically about the issue, and then proceed to march forth under a banner of "Equality" in an attempt to conquer anything that they do not understand or find strange and different, and thus fear.

I'll be in the middle of running incursions or building fits, and I will stop completely and put down what I'm doing if someone comes to me and says "Please help me do this." I will not go out and proselytize someone who is content with running two or even one toon doing whatever, and try to convince him to multibox. I will take time out of my day and answer to the best of my ability anyone who comes up to me with a question regarding what I do, whether it be as innocuous as "Can I see your fits?" to "That seem's interesting. How do I do that?"
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1789 - 2014-11-29 02:52:53 UTC
Heinrich Rotwang wrote:
Chris Winter wrote:
What I'm trying to figure out is...why were all of you who claim that ISBoxer gives such a huge advantage not using it? It was explicitly allowed by CCP and costs less than a single EVE subscription.

So if it was so powerful in your minds...why weren't you using it?


Because I'm not a farmer.

word. not everyone bomber spams. There is almost nothing that can be simultaneously broadcast in this gang.

It uses drone assist, but that's already in the client.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#1790 - 2014-11-29 02:59:51 UTC
Rain6637 wrote:
If you consider the amount of support that multiboxing receives, compared to the portion of subscriptions beyond 1 per player, the lack thereof is appalling. And that's the CCP who makes an announcement like this one, with no thoughts to provide alternatives to multiboxers. They'll run Power of 2 promotions, though. Do you realize the hoops everyone jumps through to get more than one character into the game? Hardware and software, including peripherals.

CCP will gladly accept an additional subscription, so let's stop pretending that multiboxing in EVE is some kind of abomination.

You should consider this the straw that breaks the camel's back, CCP. This trend is alarming. You should be going the other way, developing more support and adding multibox quality of life things, for a large portion of your player base.

Disproportionate. Neglectful. You've had it too easy.

Giving a "Like" to a Goon..
Damn it all, I've spent years disliking everything Goon, then you have to go and post something that is not only reasonable but that I have to agree with. What?

CCP state they have no control over 3rd party multi boxing apps used in their game but this is actually far from the truth.
Truth is, CCP "choose" not to have control, the providers of at least one 3rd party app are prepared to work with game devs "if" approached. This is not only good for the game but good for the 3rd party devs as their product has the ability to be used by more people.

An email I received from from one such 3rd party app developer in reply to questions from me;
If there is functionality in *our software* that breaches the EULA we are more than happy to disable certain aspects or modify our software if requested to enable it to be used. (not the exact words, I no longer have the email)

From that I presume it would require cooperation between CCP and the 3rd party devs to ensure the software keeps base, acceptable functionality while disabling, modifying or removing those aspects which breach the EULA.

CCP actively encourage dual character ownership, yet discourage multiboxing.

CCP actively encourage 3rd party app use, why not go the extra yard and see if multi boxing software devs are willing to come to the party. Multi boxing software per se does not breach the EULA, only some of its functionality.

One fairly simple change to slow down the 20 ship cloaky bomber gang fielded by one guy using multi boxing software - A built in targeting delay, say 2 or 3 seconds, after de-cloaking before he can lock a target.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Meyr
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
OnlyFleets.
#1791 - 2014-11-29 03:37:51 UTC
Using IS Boxer to enable yourself to more easily 'multibox' the Eve client is, in and of itself, perfectly acceptable and legal, in accordance with the very first post of this thread.

What is being deemed unacceptable is for a single player, with one keystroke, to input an identical command across multiple clients simultaneously. It makes no difference if you are doing invention, mining, PVE, or PVP. You will now be forced to select a particular client instance, input a command, select another client instance, and repeat the command.

Yes, this change will hurt some people. Try taking some of the very same advise I've seen handed out so often elsewhere in these forums - HTFU! Adapt, adjust, or die.

I'm not a huge fan of many of the changes being made lately, as I've stated in other threads. That said, I'm still here, trying to adjust to the changes, because I still love the game and the friends I have here.

If your only reason for being here was that you could exploit a loophole in order to gain an advantage over others, good riddance. Please contract your stuff to me, and goodbye.

One keystroke, one client.
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1792 - 2014-11-29 03:39:20 UTC
One slot on each account is a high sec PVE team. I could use the respite. I know exactly where I'm going, too.

One plex for three characters is a huge discount for me. I won't mind grinding that at all, believe it or not.

I already feel better about the thought of not paying irl $ to play.
Nolak Ataru
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#1793 - 2014-11-29 03:56:26 UTC
Meyr wrote:
Yes, this change will hurt some people. Try taking some of the very same advise I've seen handed out so often elsewhere in these forums - HTFU! Adapt, adjust, or die.
I'm not a huge fan of many of the changes being made lately, as I've stated in other threads. That said, I'm still here, trying to adjust to the changes, because I still love the game and the friends I have here.
If your only reason for being here was that you could exploit a loophole in order to gain an advantage over others, good riddance. Please contract your stuff to me, and goodbye.
One keystroke, one client.


Why is it that we are not allowed to voice our opinions and dissent when everyone else is?
CCP tried bringing back bombers decloaking each other, and they stopped after the bombers pushed back.
CCP nerfed all jump lengths for caps, but changed their mind on JFs after the community objected.
CCP is currently attempting to remove a part of our gameplay, and we are currently pushing back.

ISBoxer is not some magical "Push to win" button that old-school AoE Doomsdays were. Stop pretending they are, and start using your brain to tackle the problem in a fashion that does not involve running to the teacher because the other kids are having fun amongst themselves.
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1794 - 2014-11-29 04:01:49 UTC
I'll believe this isn't just about 'omg the reimbursements' when CCP makes multiboxing a bannable offense.

You need to just deny those reimbursements, no matter how long they stay open. Or is this about something else that you're not telling us.

man I love talking to a wall.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1795 - 2014-11-29 04:09:46 UTC
You people are stupid. Read the OP again. Then once more for posterity.

Multiboxing isn't being banned. Broadcast automation and multiplexing is. You want to tell CCP they've had it easy? Look in a ******* mirror and start clicking for each of your clients or you're little more than a hypocrite.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Nolak Ataru
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#1796 - 2014-11-29 04:17:46 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
You people are stupid. Read the OP again. Then once more for posterity.

Multiboxing isn't being banned. Broadcast automation and multiplexing is. You want to tell CCP they've had it easy? Look in a ******* mirror and start clicking for each of your clients or you're little more than a hypocrite.


No, I dare say YOU are the stupid one. The multiboxing community in EVE was created and has grown with the express knowledge that:
1) The accelerated gameplay clause is on a per-toon basis.
2) We will not set up an automated system where we can leave our computer and it will still issue actions.
3) We will receive no special treatment when it comes to protection from gankers, wardecs, or other such harm
4) We will pay, via PLEX or $$$, for each account and there will be no discounts for multiple accounts.

As I've mentioned before, we are being restricted to 50mph in our cars simply because someone had an accident once upon a time. This is censorship, and we will not stand idly by while CCP attempts to remove our way of playing.
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1797 - 2014-11-29 04:22:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Rain6637
GUYS. It is very important that we don't argue amongst ourselves. Not right now, not this time.

Multiboxers have paid subs for how long and all we're given is another client with no integration. This is a self-serving move they're doing with the ISBoxer change. Because of reimbursements given to players who cried about believing someone was ISBoxing and cheating. It solves a very short term problem, but it's the wrong move.

Put yourself in CCP's shoes. Right now they're trying to cater to everyone, and 33% of their subs are from +n accounts. So what do you do? Live a facade that you're not responsible for what multiboxers do, and play like you thought people only used multiboxing for scouting?

Then there's this thread. They've said nothing to continue the dialog with players, in what should be a customer service / feedback type line of communication. Instead they're hiding, saying nothing, letting players argue with each other about whatever, when CCP is the deciding authority here. We're basically left listening to muzak, waiting for the next available customer service representative for ... 4 days now.

Click through the dev posts and all you'll get are "read the OP," a dev hacked inline image because falcon is so edgy, another dev saying workarounds will be caught.

when the -real- issue is CCP is playing possum, waiting to see what players do in the long term.

so. let's not get upset at each other. That's what CCP wants, and that's what they're counting on. For everyone to believe this is a multiboxer vs uniboxer issue. It's not. The real issue is why multiboxing is sold and promoted, but hasn't been supported in the client in a way that can be balanced, that we can more or less agree with.

This time it happens to be my playstyle. Next time it could be yours. This is sort of a big thing. If it was something you paid for, wouldn't you care?
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#1798 - 2014-11-29 04:29:32 UTC
Nolak Ataru wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
No, you can multibox all you want. I multibox too. The issue of multiboxing is not at issue.

What you cannot due is use 3rd party software to enhance your ability to acquire isk.

And what is it with you? If somebody doesn't have the time to set up ISBoxer they must be morons? Why is you have to always resort to the worst and most insulting response? Do you have absolutely zero social filter in real life too? My thinking was that there are lots of very intelligent players who may not have the hours you were just going on about to allocate towards setting up and fine tuning ISBoxer.


For the trillionth time: THE ACCELERATED ISK CLAUSE IS ON A PER TOON BASIS NOT A PER HUMAN BEING BASIS AS REPEATEDLY CONFIRMED BY CCP DEVS!
Your lack of reading comprehension (and subsequent reliance on circular logic) reveals to everyone your lack of thought on the subject and I must therefore call you a troll.

I never accused someone and I hold no ill will against someone who doesn't have the time to sink into ISBoxer a moron. Live and let live, I say. I personally am not very familiar with market PVP, but that doesn't mean I want to run around banning it.

My problem comes when ill informed troglodytes and peons rally behind a cause that they have no knowledge about, spend zero effort to think critically about the issue, and then proceed to march forth under a banner of "Equality" in an attempt to conquer anything that they do not understand or find strange and different, and thus fear.

I'll be in the middle of running incursions or building fits, and I will stop completely and put down what I'm doing if someone comes to me and says "Please help me do this." I will not go out and proselytize someone who is content with running two or even one toon doing whatever, and try to convince him to multibox. I will take time out of my day and answer to the best of my ability anyone who comes up to me with a question regarding what I do, whether it be as innocuous as "Can I see your fits?" to "That seem's interesting. How do I do that?"


There you go again. We have been over how your case is:

1. Over simplified in that it fails to factor in issues like players making mistakes or not having the same incentives across the fleet.
2. Probably an inappropriate comparison (i.e., a more appropriate comparison is not 10 players in fleet vs. 1 player with ISBoxera and 10 accounts, but 1 player 10 accounts and ISBoxer vs. 1 player 10 accounts no ISBoxer).

In any event, in all cases the issue is rewards per character so your tiresome response is not only tiresome, but has been challenged and you have failed to come with a good response, IMO.

And tell us troglodytes and peons again how you hold no ill will. Roll

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#1799 - 2014-11-29 04:35:27 UTC
Rain6637 wrote:
One slot on each account is a high sec PVE team. I could use the respite. I know exactly where I'm going, too.

One plex for three characters is a huge discount for me. I won't mind grinding that at all, believe it or not.

I already feel better about the thought of not paying irl $ to play.


Well, then I guess you can stop posting, right? This change is good for you. Roll

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#1800 - 2014-11-29 04:38:42 UTC
Rain6637 wrote:
GUYS. It is very important that we don't argue amongst ourselves. Not right now, not this time.

Multiboxers have paid subs for how long and all we're given is another client with no integration. This is a self-serving move they're doing with the ISBoxer change. Because of reimbursements given to players who cried about believing someone was ISBoxing and cheating. It solves a very short term problem, but it's the wrong move.

Put yourself in CCP's shoes. Right now they're trying to cater to everyone, and 33% of their subs are from +n accounts. So what do you do? Live a facade that you're not responsible for what multiboxers do, and play like you thought people only used multiboxing for scouting?

Then there's this thread. They've said nothing to continue the dialog with players, in what should be a customer service / feedback type line of communication. Instead they're hiding, saying nothing, letting players argue with each other about whatever, when CCP is the deciding authority here. We're basically left listening to muzak, waiting for the next available customer service representative for ... 4 days now.

Click through the dev posts and all you'll get are "read the OP," a dev hacked inline image because falcon is so edgy, another dev saying workarounds will be caught.

when the -real- issue is CCP is playing possum, waiting to see what players do in the long term.

so. let's not get upset at each other. That's what CCP wants, and that's what they're counting on. For everyone to believe this is a multiboxer vs uniboxer issue. It's not. The real issue is why multiboxing is sold and promoted, but hasn't been supported in the client in a way that can be balanced, that we can more or less agree with.

This time it happens to be my playstyle. Next time it could be yours. This is sort of a big thing. If it was something you paid for, wouldn't you care?


Complete non-sequitur, nowhere in this thread has CCP indicated that multi-boxing is a problem or will be prohibited. You can even use ISBoxer to manage windows, CPU/memory, etc. But using it to issue, in effect, multiple commands with a single click is now prohibited as it probably should always have been.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online