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Update regarding Multiboxing and input automation

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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1641 - 2014-11-28 03:09:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Chris Winter wrote:
EVEMon allows "accelerated game play" by allowing people to more efficiently plan skill queues and check market order status across multiple characters without logging in.

EFT/Pyfa allow "accelerated game play" by allowing theorycrafting of fits for free without having to set them up in game.

Obvious conclusion is that EVEMon, EFT, and Pyfa should all be banned.

EVE has always had a rich set of metagame tools which are available to everyone who wants to use them. ISBoxer was one such tool. It's third party software that makes the game easier and more fun for people who choose to use it. Oddly enough, though, so many people choose not to use it that it becomes not allowed.

Personally I think I'll start a crusade against EFT/Pyfa and the like. People who use them are at a huge advantage compared to people who don't, and therefore they should be banned.
There's a large and fundamental difference between planning tools and input broadcasting.

The most important of which being that the former causes absolutely nothing to happen in game. Evemon/Pyfa/EFT and the like are not tools for accelerating gameplay. They are tailor made interactive references. They provide information in the same way a google search does and assist with manual parsing and calculating, but only outside of the game.

So fundamentally you have equated things like writing a guide or sharing a fit to accelerated gameplay when we look at what these actually are. But this isn't accelerated gameplay. In fact it's not even gameplay. Gathering information from outside resources causes nothing to happen in game, can be done independently of the client, and has no requirement to even have an account with CCP.

There are other functions within those tools that interact with the game world, but only do so by pulling information. Further, that information is made available directly by CCP through a CCP designed and controlled API which still causes no actual gameplay to happen (yet still your posts accuses CCP of cheating).

I suppose the next step is to say google constitutes accelerated gameplay because by looking up the game and reading about it you might learn how to do something faster than having to figure it out from scratch in the client?
Petrified
Old and Petrified Syndication
#1642 - 2014-11-28 03:10:17 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:

We would like to clarify that it does not matter how Input Broadcasting and Input Multiplexing are being done, whether through use of software or modified hardware. Our only concern is regarding how it is being used in the EVE universe.


So this guy who sorta opened the way for software input broadcasting/multiplexing would now be legitimately banned.

Cool beans.

Cloaking is the closest thing to a "Pause Game" button one can get while in space.

Support better localization for the Japanese Community.
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1643 - 2014-11-28 03:16:58 UTC
Other than the obvious advantage it provides, I'm not sure ISBoxer or other shortcuts are the problem here. At higher SP levels, the barrier to gameplay is very thin, and is still an issue. The ire toward ISBoxers will probably continue as a result. If you have characters who are capable in a ship, the only thing stopping you from participating in a doctrine or fleet composition is ISK, with or without ISBoxer. Basically I'm not sure this solves anything in the sentiment department for either side, ISBoxers and purists. If this thread is any indication, this change does nothing to relieve tension. If petitions were the main point of contention against ISBoxer, I see it moving to something else, and I definitely see people continuing to file petitions for losses resulting from engagements with multiboxers.

The debate isn't going away. At the most basic level this is a P2W debate, haves and have-nots, blobs etc. But really, everyone has the same options for bringing friends, whether those friends are real people or alts.

Help, I can't download EVE

President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub

PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
ESN Seeker
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1644 - 2014-11-28 03:24:26 UTC
I'm sorry, I don't understand the meaning of "input multiplexing" in this context.

Someone asked up-topic about the difference between "input broadcasting" and "input multiplexing". The reply talked about "input broadcasting" and "input multicasting".

Multicasting is not multiplexing, in any other context in which I have seen either term.

In communications, multiplexing refers to transmitting messages from several sources over a single channel to a single destination. At the end of the channel there may be a demultiplexing operation, that separates the messages from the several sources again and sends each message to one or more destinations, depending on the source of the message.

Multicasting, in communications, refers to sending a single message to multiple destinations.

The only possible meaning I have been able to figure out for "input multiplexing", in the context of EVE, is using several different keyboards and/or pointing devices (mice, trackballs, whatever) to send input into a single EVE-instance. By that definition, using a numeric keypad separate from one's alphabetic keyboard would constitute input multiplexing. So would using more than one pointing device. Why CCP would ban such configurations escapes me, since they do not violate the prohibition against a single keystroke or mouse action going to more than one EVE-instance.

I've skimmed about the first 1500 posts in this topic, read all the Dev posts in this topic and read about a dozen of the messages from this topic retrieved by doing a Forum search on "multiplexing", without finding enlightenment.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1645 - 2014-11-28 03:30:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Rain6637 wrote:
Other than the obvious advantage it provides, I'm not sure ISBoxer or other shortcuts are the problem here. At higher SP levels, the barrier to gameplay is very thin, and is still an issue. The ire toward ISBoxers will probably continue as a result. If you have characters who are capable in a ship, the only thing stopping you from participating in a doctrine or fleet composition is ISK, with or without ISBoxer. Basically I'm not sure this solves anything in the sentiment department for either side, ISBoxers and purists. If this thread is any indication, this change does nothing to relieve tension. If petitions were the main point of contention against ISBoxer, I see it moving to something else, and I definitely see people continuing to file petitions for losses resulting from engagements with multiboxers.

The debate isn't going away. At the most basic level this is a P2W debate, haves and have-nots, blobs etc. But really, everyone has the same options for bringing friends, whether those friends are real people or alts.
One problem this creates is perception of barrier to entry. If I were CCP I wouldn't want my game to be the one known for needing 10 clients and ISBoxer just to be competitive, regardless of how true or not it was.

Also, the barier for any group content is as thin as your in game acquaintances make it. Outside of multiboxing, isk/SP gets you to the point where you can do a task, but it's other people that get you actually doing it. That is what ISBoxer (semi)efficiently bypasses. Not everyone will agree that that barrier is important, but it will become more effective to those that used tools like ISBoxer come January.

There is also the fact that a large shared resource pool pf clients feeding a single player provides a strong proportional income advantage for the accounts that aren't income generation dedicated compared to single or even non-tool using multi account holders. but then, you said other than that so...
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1646 - 2014-11-28 03:41:05 UTC
About the squad warp. It's automation that is in the client. other things that are automated:

Orbit
Approach
Keep at range
Drone aggro

CCP you need to do more to address this -thing-

This isn't a console game, and it is not a level playing field. You're straddling a couple fences right now: P2P and F2P, Uniboxing and Multiboxing. Until you do something to truly make it a level playing field for all four categories of players, this will be an issue.

Personally, I'm leaning toward enabling multiple characters per player, with equal sets of tools for everyone with a client install. The other option is attempting to limit each player to just one client. Despite sounding like a good idea, too much utility is lost when a player is limited to one set of eyes with just one client. For starters, the UI needs to be more informative.

EVE needs more definition--it needs to define itself more clearly regarding multiboxing. As it stands, multiboxing is a huge workaround to all types of balancing issues.

The bigger issue is the balance between ships and roles, whether a fleet is individual players per character or not. I'm sure you envision fleets composed of several different ship types and roles, but the reality is fleets are composed of one specific hull, with one specific fit, copy pasted as many times as possible until the fleet tree is full. That is a very big motivation for alting... find one effective tactic, copy paste 10x.

My suggestions for what to do about multiboxing and EVE, and the variable clients problem. My suggestions of going all in, acknowledging multiboxing, and streamling it: Suggestion #1, Suggestion #2.

No ISBoxer or third party applications required. No extra client instances required. The most level playing field you can provide.

Help, I can't download EVE

President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub

PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
Nolak Ataru
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#1647 - 2014-11-28 03:52:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Nolak Ataru
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
One problem this creates is perception of barrier to entry. If I were CCP I wouldn't want my game to be the one known for needing 10 clients and ISBoxer just to be competitive, regardless of how true or not it was.

Also, the barier for any group content is as thin as your in game acquaintances make it. Outside of multiboxing, isk/SP gets you to the point where you can do a task, but it's other people that get you actually doing it. That is what ISBoxer (semi)efficiently bypasses. Not everyone will agree that that barrier is important, but it will become more effective to those that used tools like ISBoxer come January.

There is also the fact that a large shared resource pool pf clients feeding a single player provides a strong proportional income advantage for the accounts that aren't income generation dedicated compared to single or even non-tool using multi account holders. but then, you said other than that so...


Another thing to consider is EVE has always had a slight pay-2-win aspect to it, whether it be buying PLEX for faction / deadspace, or buying a character off the Character Bazaar. I personally like this aspect of EVE as it tends to lead to ALODs and 150m SP toons running around in a triple-tank Thorax with purple and blue all over.

I haven't PLEXed my accounts in my two yearly billing cycles because I loved the opportunity CCP gave me to fly around with my own little squadron. I wanted to support the game that brought me all of the enjoyment that it did. And I thanked CCP whenever I remembered for letting me have fun even when I was having a bad day.

E: minor disclaimer: I have bought and sold two toons on the CB after I was well into playing EVE because of things I wanted to do in EVE, not as a "pay Blizzard for level 90 character" thing.
Also, I may be slightly biased in terms of the ALOD department as I happened upon one of these loot pinatas myself and profited from it.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1648 - 2014-11-28 04:02:08 UTC
Nolak Ataru wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
One problem this creates is perception of barrier to entry. If I were CCP I wouldn't want my game to be the one known for needing 10 clients and ISBoxer just to be competitive, regardless of how true or not it was.

Also, the barier for any group content is as thin as your in game acquaintances make it. Outside of multiboxing, isk/SP gets you to the point where you can do a task, but it's other people that get you actually doing it. That is what ISBoxer (semi)efficiently bypasses. Not everyone will agree that that barrier is important, but it will become more effective to those that used tools like ISBoxer come January.

There is also the fact that a large shared resource pool pf clients feeding a single player provides a strong proportional income advantage for the accounts that aren't income generation dedicated compared to single or even non-tool using multi account holders. but then, you said other than that so...


Another thing to consider is EVE has always had a slight pay-2-win aspect to it, whether it be buying PLEX for faction / deadspace, or buying a character off the Character Bazaar. I personally like this aspect of EVE as it tends to lead to ALODs and 150m SP toons running around in a triple-tank Thorax with purple and blue all over.

I haven't PLEXed my accounts in my two yearly billing cycles because I loved the opportunity CCP gave me to fly around with my own little squadron. I wanted to support the game that brought me all of the enjoyment that it did. And I thanked CCP whenever I remembered for letting me have fun even when I was having a bad day.
Modules with higher performance but greater costs are themselves just a form of risk/reward. In itself it isn't P2W in my mind mostly because everything can be sold or potentially looted, thus causing a definite balance in behavior alongside the performance.

Plex? Sure, We can call that P2W, though really it's more like symbiosis between players enabled by the ability to trade playtime. Either way it's probably the best anti RMT move I've seen an MMO take outside of just selling isk themselves, which wouldn't work here.
Odysseus Rhodes
Doomheim
#1649 - 2014-11-28 04:31:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Odysseus Rhodes
This has been the absolute best of the best forum threads ever in all of EVE Online.

Thank you CCP Falcon. When I get my dread... I shall name it (and all those to come after it).. "Threadnaught Falcon"

I have never seen so many "Buhh buhhh buhh MOM!"s so well written. Such margin making and excuse forging.

Rife and chock full of every conceivable minced word, in so many barely conceivable configurations so as to deflect and passive aggressively defend the narcissistic power mongering.

Though fictional and representing no one person... I think the below sums it up nicely:

"I can't play EVE with only one account running." " I cant win fights unless I can fire 50 simultaneous bombs with one click.", " I can't mine with other players.. that means I have to interact!" "But I need a personal horde of catalyst with 128 guns, so I can be effective in a fight, otherwise I'm unable to be a "High Sec Gank God". "I need 20 Domies so I can finish 8 missions an hour for various nefarious reasons so I can sell some isk and pay my rent!"

Precious!

Make some friends ... form a fleet. Go out and shoot Internet spaceships together!

EVEN If CCP reversed the decision this thread would make it all worth while. Watching the worms being worms, squirming to avoid salted earth that was once their Nuclear death button bringing forth the full weight of the Ban Hammer .

Pure Joy! Bliss, on Tap! Zero sympathy. Welcome to a level playing field.

Happy Thanksgiving
Good Hunting and remember if your quitting, contract your stuffs to a New player like me.
Il Feytid
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1650 - 2014-11-28 04:35:22 UTC
I would have loved it if the first ten pages was the same Darth Vader No Scream by an ISBoxer user on all of his accounts posted at the exact same time.

Such a missed opportunity. Ugh
Chris Winter
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
The Curatores Veritatis Auxiliary
#1651 - 2014-11-28 04:35:30 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Chris Winter wrote:
EVEMon allows "accelerated game play" by allowing people to more efficiently plan skill queues and check market order status across multiple characters without logging in.

EFT/Pyfa allow "accelerated game play" by allowing theorycrafting of fits for free without having to set them up in game.

Obvious conclusion is that EVEMon, EFT, and Pyfa should all be banned.

EVE has always had a rich set of metagame tools which are available to everyone who wants to use them. ISBoxer was one such tool. It's third party software that makes the game easier and more fun for people who choose to use it. Oddly enough, though, so many people choose not to use it that it becomes not allowed.

Personally I think I'll start a crusade against EFT/Pyfa and the like. People who use them are at a huge advantage compared to people who don't, and therefore they should be banned.


Maybe it did, but here's the thing: it was free. Download it, put in the API key, get the same benefit. ISBoxer has a fee for the platform. That makes it a big difference.

There are plenty of tools for EVE that cost money. Excel/Microsoft Office, for one. Should we ban the use of Excel because it costs money?

"No, because there are free alternatives!" you say. But there are also free alternatives to ISBoxer.

As for EVEMon/EFT/Pyfa not affecting game play...what about having a better computer? That "accelerates game play" by allowing you to more easily play, and more easily multibox without isboxer. Should we now ban people with really awesome gaming rigs because they have an unfair advantage over people who play on a potato-class laptop?

For me, I multibox and use isboxer because my playtimes are too random and unpredictable to make a general commitment to a group. If I want to run incursions, I could end up spending two hours waiting for a fleet, and there goes the entirety of my time available that day. That's Not Fun. ISBoxer allows me to play the game when I want without waiting for other people, and yet also have a more difficult (and yes, lucrative) experience than other "solo" content. Basically, I used ISBoxer to provide myself with the "high end solo" content that EVE lacks. It's high risk (if I mess up I lose multiple battleships), fun, and rewarding.

I could go back to just running the same old missions over and over again with a couple accounts, but by comparison it'll be severely boring.
Odysseus Rhodes
Doomheim
#1652 - 2014-11-28 04:43:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Odysseus Rhodes
You use a third party program.

To play a multiplayer game, single player.

Without having to interact, and horde the financial gains.

If you truly grind missions like that... make some friends mission with them you will find it more fun that solo-player Multi-boxing because..

PEOPLE!

13000 Brave Newbies can't all be doing it wrong.

High end... solo content... is called PVP.
Nolak Ataru
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#1653 - 2014-11-28 05:06:36 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Modules with higher performance but greater costs are themselves just a form of risk/reward. In itself it isn't P2W in my mind mostly because everything can be sold or potentially looted, thus causing a definite balance in behavior alongside the performance.

Plex? Sure, We can call that P2W, though really it's more like symbiosis between players enabled by the ability to trade playtime. Either way it's probably the best anti RMT move I've seen an MMO take outside of just selling isk themselves, which wouldn't work here.


You're quite correct in your statement of modules being risk/reward. I would like to submit that so is multiboxing it's own separate risk/reward.

I was mostly referring to the ability to quickly purchase a 200m sp god-toon in a relatively short amount of time. PLEX in and of itself is not P2W itself.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1654 - 2014-11-28 05:22:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Nolak Ataru wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Modules with higher performance but greater costs are themselves just a form of risk/reward. In itself it isn't P2W in my mind mostly because everything can be sold or potentially looted, thus causing a definite balance in behavior alongside the performance.

Plex? Sure, We can call that P2W, though really it's more like symbiosis between players enabled by the ability to trade playtime. Either way it's probably the best anti RMT move I've seen an MMO take outside of just selling isk themselves, which wouldn't work here.


You're quite correct in your statement of modules being risk/reward. I would like to submit that so is multiboxing it's own separate risk/reward.

I was mostly referring to the ability to quickly purchase a 200m sp god-toon in a relatively short amount of time. PLEX in and of itself is not P2W itself.
From personal experience the risks of multiboxing are often well outshined by the rewards even without assistance from outside tools. Adding those tools, which also expands the number of clients that can be reasonably multiboxed, skews that balance a great deal further. It can't really be reasonably argued that tool assisted multiboxing is riskier or less rewarding than non-assisted multiboxing.

I can see the character thing as well to a point, but characters in this game are less of an automatic win than others, often with advantages that you need to know what you are doing to appreciate. As anything else it's still symbiosis, only now people are paying for past game time(training time) rather than future game time. This trade is considerably better than a module though in that it can't be lost in the same way, so maybe...


Edit: Just realized that there is a downside there too, having low skills can shield unsuspecting newer players from certain kinds of catastrophic loss that an abundance of funds would otherwise allow, where acquiring a trained character opens those possibilities, so there is that.
Nolak Ataru
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#1655 - 2014-11-28 05:32:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Nolak Ataru
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
From personal experience the risks of multiboxing are often well outshined by the rewards even without assistance from outside tools. Adding those tools, which also expands the number of clients that can be reasonably multiboxed, skews that balance a great deal further. It can't really be reasonably argued that tool assisted multiboxing is riskier or less rewarding than non-assisted multiboxing.

I can see the character thing as well to a point, but characters in this game are less of an automatic win than others, often with advantages that you need to know what you are doing to appreciate. As anything else it's still symbiosis, only now people are paying for past game time(training time) rather than future game time. This trade is considerably better than a module though in that it can't be lost in the same way, so maybe...


As you add more clients, I've found that one starts hitting diminishing returns on the rewards vs attention/distractions. Having been on the receiving end of a wardec which I royally derped and lost 4 NMs or so, I can only imagine the damage that can be done with a small batch of talos/cats and some ECM. And you also have to remember connection issues.

e: To steal a phrase from you, up to a point. One can still drop $200 on PLEX and attempt to move it in an Ibis :D
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1656 - 2014-11-28 05:35:57 UTC
About the narrative, and defining EVE to incorporate multiboxing and alts. The answer is in mindlinks. The Sansha Kuvakei variety. Not just for alts of one player, but fleets of players and alts, with the control structure linked to the fleet leadership tree.

Multiboxers are basically playing Sansha Kuvakei.

Help, I can't download EVE

President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub

PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
Chris Winter
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
The Curatores Veritatis Auxiliary
#1657 - 2014-11-28 05:53:21 UTC
Odysseus Rhodes wrote:
You use a third party program.

To play a multiplayer game, single player.

Without having to interact, and horde the financial gains.

If you truly grind missions like that... make some friends mission with them you will find it more fun that solo-player Multi-boxing because..

PEOPLE!

13000 Brave Newbies can't all be doing it wrong.

High end... solo content... is called PVP.

There's not really a ton of "solo" pvp available. I also don't multibox missions--I multibox incursions. I make maybe 60mil per hour per character. That's rather less than what people in actual groups make.

My "financial gains" go to keeping my fleet running. After PLEX and ship replacements, I have basically nothing extra each month. I don't mind. Running a fleet is fun in itself, and I enjoy the challenge.

I also do interact. As is the case with all incursion fleets, I sometimes get contested. I usually lose. So much for your "isboxers have an unfair advantage" claim.

Just a couple days ago a newer player commented on my fleet, I chatted with him for a while, handed him a venture and had him help me with the lyavite in the NMC sites. Interaction and content created. Normal incursion groups don't do that--if you're not in a well equipped BS or logistics cruisers, they're not interested.

Simple fact is that CCP is just giving in to whiners. Unfortunate that they're restricting the sandbox. Next they'll be banning scamming because it makes things harder for new players.
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1658 - 2014-11-28 06:03:24 UTC
yeah that's another thing, the input / stimulation. we needs it, precious.

Help, I can't download EVE

President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub

PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
kraken11 jensen
ROOKS AND KRAKENS
#1659 - 2014-11-28 07:08:15 UTC  |  Edited by: kraken11 jensen
Chris Winter wrote:
Odysseus Rhodes wrote:
You use a third party program.

To play a multiplayer game, single player.

Without having to interact, and horde the financial gains.

If you truly grind missions like that... make some friends mission with them you will find it more fun that solo-player Multi-boxing because..

PEOPLE!

13000 Brave Newbies can't all be doing it wrong.

High end... solo content... is called PVP.

There's not really a ton of "solo" pvp available. I also don't multibox missions--I multibox incursions. I make maybe 60mil per hour per character. That's rather less than what people in actual groups make.

My "financial gains" go to keeping my fleet running. After PLEX and ship replacements, I have basically nothing extra each month. I don't mind. Running a fleet is fun in itself, and I enjoy the challenge.

I also do interact. As is the case with all incursion fleets, I sometimes get contested. I usually lose. So much for your "isboxers have an unfair advantage" claim.

Just a couple days ago a newer player commented on my fleet, I chatted with him for a while, handed him a venture and had him help me with the lyavite in the NMC sites. Interaction and content created. Normal incursion groups don't do that--if you're not in a well equipped BS or logistics cruisers, they're not interested.

Simple fact is that CCP is just giving in to whiners. Unfortunate that they're restricting the sandbox. Next they'll be banning scamming because it makes things harder for new players.



I also multibox, i got 3 accounts. and i do it for the fun and Challenge :), i also help New players'etc give them ships. I do a lot to to (try) to help the community... And its possible that CCP give in for something, i dont know about that... But, Yeah.


(also, people shall be able to as part off the sanbox) :) Not that ccp/people try to limit it :)
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#1660 - 2014-11-28 07:43:29 UTC
Chris Winter wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Chris Winter wrote:
EVEMon allows "accelerated game play" by allowing people to more efficiently plan skill queues and check market order status across multiple characters without logging in.

EFT/Pyfa allow "accelerated game play" by allowing theorycrafting of fits for free without having to set them up in game.

Obvious conclusion is that EVEMon, EFT, and Pyfa should all be banned.

EVE has always had a rich set of metagame tools which are available to everyone who wants to use them. ISBoxer was one such tool. It's third party software that makes the game easier and more fun for people who choose to use it. Oddly enough, though, so many people choose not to use it that it becomes not allowed.

Personally I think I'll start a crusade against EFT/Pyfa and the like. People who use them are at a huge advantage compared to people who don't, and therefore they should be banned.


Maybe it did, but here's the thing: it was free. Download it, put in the API key, get the same benefit. ISBoxer has a fee for the platform. That makes it a big difference.

There are plenty of tools for EVE that cost money. Excel/Microsoft Office, for one. Should we ban the use of Excel because it costs money?

"No, because there are free alternatives!" you say. But there are also free alternatives to ISBoxer.

As for EVEMon/EFT/Pyfa not affecting game play...what about having a better computer? That "accelerates game play" by allowing you to more easily play, and more easily multibox without isboxer. Should we now ban people with really awesome gaming rigs because they have an unfair advantage over people who play on a potato-class laptop?

For me, I multibox and use isboxer because my playtimes are too random and unpredictable to make a general commitment to a group. If I want to run incursions, I could end up spending two hours waiting for a fleet, and there goes the entirety of my time available that day. That's Not Fun. ISBoxer allows me to play the game when I want without waiting for other people, and yet also have a more difficult (and yes, lucrative) experience than other "solo" content. Basically, I used ISBoxer to provide myself with the "high end solo" content that EVE lacks. It's high risk (if I mess up I lose multiple battleships), fun, and rewarding.

I could go back to just running the same old missions over and over again with a couple accounts, but by comparison it'll be severely boring.



First off, Evemon does not interact with the game, ISBoxer does. Excel same thing. Additionally, with google docs you can do alot of your spreadsheet work for free as well...or are you going to complain that people who pay for their internet service are cheating too? So your attempt to grasp at this straw is a complete failure. Maybe if Evemon, logged into one's account, opened the skill queue and updated it (which is silly in a post-Pheobe game with unlimited skill queues) you might have a leg to stand on here.

As for the rest of your post the summary can be: ISBoxer let me do things a player without ISBoxer would not be able to do...like acquire more isk, items, etc. via automation...i.e. something that has pretty much always been contrary to the EULA but that CCP decided not to enforce. Now they are and you are making silly comparisons such as Excel.

And I have a similar problem, I can't always play Eve when I want to...but somehow I've managed without having to resort to automation.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online