These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Update regarding Multiboxing and input automation

First post First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Capt JJ
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1441 - 2014-11-27 01:08:45 UTC
[/quote]

What is it with this fetish about fleet warping? A feature deliberately built into the game by CCP and available to all Eve players right from the first time they start up the client and start playing.[/quote]


[/quote]

But under the new EULA conditions Fleet / Squad / Wing warps are bannable.
As they come into navigation of multiple accounts with a single click.
Yes its built into the game but it is NOT excluded or has provisions under the EULA changes.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#1442 - 2014-11-27 01:11:24 UTC
Yi Hyori wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Nolak Ataru wrote:


For the thousandth time, the accelerated gameplay clause is on a PER. TOON. BASIS.
CCP themselves have stated this.

If the clause was on a per-human basis, CCP would have to ban all forms of multi-account usage.


Look, its really simple. If ISBoxer makes the single player more efficient...then that single player is getting more isk than the player not using ISBoxer.

Here is yet another way to explain it to you:

Player|10 accounts and ISBoxer earns 500 million isk/hour.

Player|10 accounts and no ISBoxer earns 450 million isk/hour.

Earnings per character:

Player|10 accounts and ISBoxer earns 50 million isk/hour/character.

Player|10 accounts and no ISBoxer earns 45 million isk/hour/character.

If it is exactly the same earnings with and without ISBoxer....why all of your blubbering?

Oh, and dude....go back and learn some 3rd grade math. Roll



This is arguing semantics again. Both arguing the same point but different parts of it.

Nolak is arguing that 10 players with 1account each will make more isk in 1 hour than 1 player with 10 accounts using ISBoxer

You are arguing that 1 player with 10 accounts will make more with ISBoxer than 1 player with 10 accounts without ISBoxer.

Different points are being argued here. Under the previous stance of CCP on ISBoxer the first point that Nolak was making was the reason for ISBoxer being deemed compliant with CCP's EULA.

Now with the change in stance, this argument doesn't really matter since the duplication method is now considered a bannable offense.

I believe the reason that CCP does not do a blanket ban on multiboxing software is that it does cross into what a person can and cannot do with their own computer. In essence the window management of Eve is no more than simply managing the viewing area of the eve client. If they were to ban the usage of window manipulation, you would in essence be banned for adjusting the viewing of the client by projecting the client unto a projector or using more than 1 monitor. I am using extreme cases, but all points need to be taken into consideration before actions are taken.


I think the 10 players will do better than 1 player with 10 accounts is highly dubious proposition. It indicates a complete lack of actually doing things like leading a fleet. Here is one example of why such a claim is bogus, at least in regards to PvP:

FC calls primary, secondary and tertiary. All three targets start taking damage almost immediately. Some idiots in the fleet who want to ensure a number of kill mails have either ungrouped or have multiple groups of guns and put them on all three targets to ensure 3 kill mails. With ISBoxer that would not be a problem.

Basically people can behave contrary to what is best for the fleet...for whatever reasons. Inattention, malice, stupidity, personal goals not in sync with the overall fleet goals. There is even a name for this problem in game theory (mechanism design to be exact...which is actually quite fitting as we are talking about games and strategic behavior in games), its called incentive compatibility.

Incentive compatibility does not exist when you have just 1 player.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#1443 - 2014-11-27 01:12:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Capt JJ wrote:

But under the new EULA conditions Fleet / Squad / Wing warps are bannable.
As they come into navigation of multiple accounts with a single click.
Yes its built into the game but it is NOT excluded or has provisions under the EULA changes.


I'm sorry that is just stupid. Really stupid. It is stupid because fleet warping does not involve 3rd party software or reprogramming the client.

Now, go sit in the corner and be embarrassed.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#1444 - 2014-11-27 01:15:41 UTC
Nolak Ataru wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Nolak Ataru wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Nolak Ataru wrote:

For the thousandth time, the accelerated gameplay clause is on a PER. TOON. BASIS.
CCP themselves have stated this.
If the clause was on a per-human basis, CCP would have to ban all forms of multi-account usage.

Look, its really simple.

You're right, it IS really simple. I'll say it slowly so you can understand.
The. Accellerated. Gameplay. Clause. Is. On. A. Per. Toon. Basis. Not. A. Per. Human. Basis.

Your obstinacy on this is duly noted. Roll


At this point I'm pretty sure you're trolling. No man can be this stupid when it took me 30 seconds with the forum search feature to find numerous threads where CCP backhanded whiners who were trying to use the gameplay clause to ban ISBoxers.


And look who is whining now that you just smacked with the back of the hand for precisely that reason. Roll

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Nolak Ataru
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#1445 - 2014-11-27 01:19:58 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
And look who is whining now that you just smacked with the back of the hand for precisely that reason. Roll


TIL: Calling out a troll is now whining.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#1446 - 2014-11-27 01:25:38 UTC
Yi Hyori wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Yi Hyori wrote:
I half agree with Nolack Ataru in that this type of change may lead to headaches for GMs who are sometimes poorly trained and inadequately equipped to handle certain situations.

Hence my post in requesting better training and preparation for GMs when this change does go through. I would hate for my accounts to be banned and go through the motion of appealing because someone though my fleet warp toons were being "isboxed" or "botted"



What is it with this fetish about fleet warping? A feature deliberately built into the game by CCP and available to all Eve players right from the first time they start up the client and start playing.


I am not saying that fleet warping is botting, I am arguing that a layman who views someone fleet warping their toons, will jump to the conclusion and use that as the basis of their petition or whatnot.



Do you really think that GMs are that daft across the board that this would be a Thing™. Granted some nub players might think its cheating, but I doubt the GMs would do much beyond look at the petition then close it.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#1447 - 2014-11-27 01:26:34 UTC
Nolak Ataru wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
And look who is whining now that you just smacked with the back of the hand for precisely that reason. Roll


TIL: Calling out a troll is now whining.


No, its all the previous posts you've got. You clearly are butt hurt about this change. Roll

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Yi Hyori
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1448 - 2014-11-27 01:29:06 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Capt JJ wrote:

But under the new EULA conditions Fleet / Squad / Wing warps are bannable.
As they come into navigation of multiple accounts with a single click.
Yes its built into the game but it is NOT excluded or has provisions under the EULA changes.


I'm sorry that is just stupid. Really stupid. It is stupid because fleet warping does not involve 3rd party software or reprogramming the client.

Now, go sit in the corner and be embarrassed.


I hate to use the slippery slope argument, but technically using a chopstick with multiple mice taped together isnt using a third party software or reprograming the client either :P

I do understand what you're saying though as the fleet warp and regroup options are something thats built into the client.
The point of the other side is that they are using an extreme and exaggerated instance to make their point, which is a flawed method anyway.


As for your other point in incentive compatibility, youre always going to get friction when you get a gorup of people to try and work together. the point of multiboxing is to minimize said friction and try to be as efficient as possible because it is difficult to find so many people that follow the same train of thought.

Also to make a point, your example uses 10 people who are obviously slightly slow witted and comparing it to a single multiboxer performing his goals perfectly. The sample needs to be equivalent. If you are comparing 10 slightly slow, more concerned about whoring on KM, you should also use the same sample multiboxer who is slightly clueless and doesnt quite know what he is doing.

Also in terms of multiboxing, we are looking at a single thing that multiboxers are extremely good at. That is Coordinated alpha. They are very good at multiboxing f1 monkeys. Any good group of pvp'ers will tell you how effective F1 monkeys are at certain aspects of the game, but when it comes to the varying situationst hat come with combat, f1 monkeys tend to fall apart. Anyway, this argument holds up because of how diverse the eve universe is. F1 monkeys are not the be all end all of Eve and most players understand that.
Yi Hyori
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1449 - 2014-11-27 01:32:02 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Yi Hyori wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Yi Hyori wrote:
I half agree with Nolack Ataru in that this type of change may lead to headaches for GMs who are sometimes poorly trained and inadequately equipped to handle certain situations.

Hence my post in requesting better training and preparation for GMs when this change does go through. I would hate for my accounts to be banned and go through the motion of appealing because someone though my fleet warp toons were being "isboxed" or "botted"



What is it with this fetish about fleet warping? A feature deliberately built into the game by CCP and available to all Eve players right from the first time they start up the client and start playing.


I am not saying that fleet warping is botting, I am arguing that a layman who views someone fleet warping their toons, will jump to the conclusion and use that as the basis of their petition or whatnot.



Do you really think that GMs are that daft across the board that this would be a Thing™. Granted some nub players might think its cheating, but I doubt the GMs would do much beyond look at the petition then close it.


Simple answer... Yes :)

GMs tend to have a "shoot first and deal with it later" mentality. I understand that this is an awful generalization and not all GMs are deserving to be lumped into this group, but from the forum threads to the reddit threads and fellow players who have been falsely banned and later bans reversed, i would like to state that yes, indeed GMs can be quite daft.
Meloni HELL
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1450 - 2014-11-27 01:38:34 UTC
If I made hundreds of accounts for the purpose of Captains Quarters shenanigans, could I isbox their movements, excluding chat / fitting / other meaningful actions. What about creation - Can I multi box the character creation process? That sounds kinda fun seeing what comes up.

Also, mass fitting function please? Fitting up frigs for the thousands of newbros is giving me nightmares.
Rosewalker
Khumaak Flying Circus
#1451 - 2014-11-27 01:40:42 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
No wonder one of my ganker friends laughed at this.

I just tested with a few clients, and at lower settings and a few other small changes, you can cycle through them and activate modules pretty much as quickly as you can hit keys on the keyboard. And the best part is, alt+tab is a windows function, and can seamlessly be combined with any other singular input, such as a hotkey for the module slot that your weapon rack is located in. Works perfectly, too; all of the modules were in the ready state when going back through the clients to check if it worked. Can literally slide by finger across a set of keys, like the F keys, to make this work.

Caveat: windows can't be minimized (have to be active in the background, or side by side).

Congrats, CCP. The only players I see this change affecting more than marginally is those who use multiboxing software in a targeting-critical environment, such as logistics in incursions. For everyone else, you're adding the hassle of having to move each character manually, and that's about it.


Just a question. This was without ISBoxer, right? Just multiboxing the old fashioned way?

The Nosy Gamer - CCP Random: "hehe, falls under the category: nice try, but no. ;)"
Bagatur I
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1452 - 2014-11-27 01:43:31 UTC
Sentamon wrote:
A little overboard with this change don't you think? Your game is far to slow for most activities.

While I can understand taking down the 30 man IsBoxer fleets, you should consider allowing small groups of 2 or 3 to multi-broadcast.


really? are you that lazy that you cant alt-tab 2 or 3 clients? Lol
Nolak Ataru
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#1453 - 2014-11-27 01:43:47 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Nolak Ataru wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
And look who is whining now that you just smacked with the back of the hand for precisely that reason. Roll


TIL: Calling out a troll is now whining.


No, its all the previous posts you've got. You clearly are butt hurt about this change. Roll


TIL: Attempting to inform the masses is being butthurt.
Skelee VI
Appetite 4 Destruction
#1454 - 2014-11-27 01:47:46 UTC
I for one would love to see isboxer banned, However, the big alliances who pay big money will be in tears. How will they survive without 20 ships in one guys control mining!
Bagatur I
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1455 - 2014-11-27 01:50:08 UTC
Michelle Monteleone wrote:
Guess my 12 accounts are done as of January 1, 2015. I had fun while it lasted. First Warcraft removed /follow from pvp because of all the cry babies now CCP has removed multiboxing all together. The Eve universe is going to change quite a bit when all the resources people were pumping out with multiple accounts goes away.

Merry Christmas CCP. Thanks for the lump of coal.

See you cry babies in the next mmo I multibox in.Big smile


another one. who is multiboxing removed??? you should probably go play a simpler game if even this is hard for you to understand.
Bagatur I
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1456 - 2014-11-27 01:56:21 UTC
XXXMina wrote:
this is not right, you cant change the rules after 10 years, i got 5 accounts because it made sense with how the game is. now i cant use what little automation i take advantage of (just pressing the f keys ) . also jump fatigue and jump range change suxx: this is a space sim, way to clip our wings.


PS: im unsubbing all my accounts . you have till my 3 month sub runs out to fix this game.


I am wondering what stops you from playing just 1 account? Or 2-3 with alt-tabbing? Is your game play so limited that you can only play when you are running 5 accounts as one?
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#1457 - 2014-11-27 01:56:31 UTC
Yi Hyori wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Capt JJ wrote:

But under the new EULA conditions Fleet / Squad / Wing warps are bannable.
As they come into navigation of multiple accounts with a single click.
Yes its built into the game but it is NOT excluded or has provisions under the EULA changes.


I'm sorry that is just stupid. Really stupid. It is stupid because fleet warping does not involve 3rd party software or reprogramming the client.

Now, go sit in the corner and be embarrassed.


I hate to use the slippery slope argument, but technically using a chopstick with multiple mice taped together isnt using a third party software or reprograming the client either :P

I do understand what you're saying though as the fleet warp and regroup options are something thats built into the client.
The point of the other side is that they are using an extreme and exaggerated instance to make their point, which is a flawed method anyway.


As for your other point in incentive compatibility, youre always going to get friction when you get a gorup of people to try and work together. the point of multiboxing is to minimize said friction and try to be as efficient as possible because it is difficult to find so many people that follow the same train of thought.

Also to make a point, your example uses 10 people who are obviously slightly slow witted and comparing it to a single multiboxer performing his goals perfectly. The sample needs to be equivalent. If you are comparing 10 slightly slow, more concerned about whoring on KM, you should also use the same sample multiboxer who is slightly clueless and doesnt quite know what he is doing.

Also in terms of multiboxing, we are looking at a single thing that multiboxers are extremely good at. That is Coordinated alpha. They are very good at multiboxing f1 monkeys. Any good group of pvp'ers will tell you how effective F1 monkeys are at certain aspects of the game, but when it comes to the varying situationst hat come with combat, f1 monkeys tend to fall apart. Anyway, this argument holds up because of how diverse the eve universe is. F1 monkeys are not the be all end all of Eve and most players understand that.


Taking your points as you wrote them....

I don't think the chopstick/mice thing is going to be much of an issue as currently you can do something similar with your 8 fingers and 2 thumbs. Before gun grouping I'd use my fingers to press f1-fn (n<9) to have my guns all shoot pretty much simultaneously. Was that a EULA violation? If we are going to go to this level of absurdity, then I think the ISBoxers have completely lost in regards to this discussion.

As for the 10 players vs. 1 play/10 accounts. I assumed nothing about being slow witted. I was pointing out that incentives may not always line up well. Could be stupidity could be something else. But the point still remains...incentives when you get a group may not always align and that can keep one from reaching what is known as the first best outcome the outcome that is attainable when incentive compatibility is not an issue. Interestingly, when you have only 1 person in the game, it devolves to a "simple" optimization problem and incentive compatibility goes away (that the incentive compatibility goes away is what makes it simple...that an the participation constraint also goes away as well).

Hmmm...and I'm going to point out the participation thing too. Ever try to get people in a mining fleet? Its worse than herding cats. With ISBoxer you also circumvent the participation constraint too.

So the more I think about this example, 10 players vs. 1 player/10 accounts, the less I'm inclined to see Nolak's position. I understand it, but without more effort on his part I'm dismissing it entirely at this point (for the above reasons).

That ISBoxer seeks to circumvent this dynamic for enhanced gains...that puts it very much in line with macros/bots. A bot is set up so the user can make more isk than he would without the bot. For example, making isk while sleeping. ISBoxer is not to the same extreme, but is similar. And this actually supports my point, that the EULA is being violated by ISBoxer because it does circumvent the problem of groups playing together for enhanced gains. You'll have to do better to convince me that a 3rd party software that is specifically geared at reducing the Multi-player part of Massively Multi-player On-Line Role Playing game should be allowed.

v0v

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Jared Noan
Harbingers of Chaos Inc.
Fraternity.
#1458 - 2014-11-27 01:58:35 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Godren Storm wrote:
Fleet Warp would fall under these guidelines. Also the signing of drones to another player would fall under this outline. One account broadcasting a single action to more than one accounts. Food for thought.



However, fleet warp isn't using third party software to do so.

It's not food for thought at all. It's a disingenuous attempt to derail this.


Nope, it's lawayer speak, they use it.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#1459 - 2014-11-27 02:00:04 UTC
Jared Noan wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Godren Storm wrote:
Fleet Warp would fall under these guidelines. Also the signing of drones to another player would fall under this outline. One account broadcasting a single action to more than one accounts. Food for thought.



However, fleet warp isn't using third party software to do so.

It's not food for thought at all. It's a disingenuous attempt to derail this.


Nope, it's lawayer speak, they use it.


Lawyer speak...disingenuous...dude you are repeating yourself. Lol

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
TigerXtrm
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#1460 - 2014-11-27 02:01:08 UTC  |  Edited by: TigerXtrm
Capt JJ wrote:

But under the new EULA conditions Fleet / Squad / Wing warps are bannable.
As they come into navigation of multiple accounts with a single click.
Yes its built into the game but it is NOT excluded or has provisions under the EULA changes.


How about you stop telling the people who wrote the EULA how they should interpret the EULA?
How about you stop telling the people who designed the game the EULA protects what game mechanics are against the EULA?
How about you stop acting like some know it all brat spewing garbage?

How about you just shut up?

To all those who claim they won't be caught after january 1st, I am looking forward to seeing your butt turned into a statistic on one of CCP's 'this is how many morons we caught cheating' slides during Fanfest. I will be sitting in the audience and I will laugh at you Cool

My YouTube Channel - EVE Tutorials & other game related things!

My Website - Blogs, Livestreams & Forums