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Update regarding Multiboxing and input automation

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Balder Verdandi
Wormhole Sterilization Crew
#761 - 2014-11-25 21:32:36 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Fonac wrote:
So is-boxer is banned?

edit: I Honestly dont care about is-boxer or what it can do, since i've never used it, or met anyone who uses it. But the OP is not very clear on it.



isboxer isn't banned. Some of the things isboxer can do are banned.






CCP & CSM's ...


Posts like this do absolutely zero good. You both need to detail what IS allowed, and what ISN'T allowed.


This typical "VagueBook" garbage doesn't fly with any of the players, and a simple explanation detailing what is allowed and what isn't, in a bullet style list, wouldn't have gotten you 40 pages of "please explain what you mean" posts.


Seriously, stop beating your heads with boards like in Monty Python and talk to us like adults. We're grown ups, we can handle it.


Long live the failure of "Unified Inventory"!

POS fix dated back to 2006!
FunGu Arsten
Ascendance
Goonswarm Federation
#762 - 2014-11-25 21:33:50 UTC  |  Edited by: FunGu Arsten
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31sR4_37T2E

random person ingame > ban isboxer cuzs this is cheating.. =D
Stygian Soul
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#763 - 2014-11-25 21:33:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Stygian Soul
Ranger 1 wrote:
Stygian Soul wrote:
Breaking down what a miner actually does that does and does not require broadcasting

1: undock (broadcast)
2: Squad warp to belt/bookmark (not a broadcast)
3: Launch drones (broadcast)
4: assist drones to overwatch (broadcast)
5: regroup command (not a broadcast)
6: cycle through each ship to put a laser on a different rock (not a broadcast)
7: jetcan ore or drag to an existing can (broadcast)
8: Squad warp out to POS when done (not a broadcast)
9: Dock when needed (broadcast)

So for mining the only difference will be:
I'll have to dock and undock each ship manually
Launch and assist drones on each ship manually
jetcan the ore from each ship manually

This isn't really that much more difficult to do, and if it means I make more on my harvest and pay less for my plexes because of all the people that quit, then so be it, can't say I'm pleased though. I just don't see how any of this should be a bannable offense.

Now for PvP
Gate camp:

1: squad warp to gate (not a broadcast)
2: launch drones (broadcast)
3: Assist drones (broadcast)
4: Manually go through and fix all the drones that didn't propery launch or assist (not a broadcast)
5: Activate various perma-running modules (broadcast)
6: Manually go through and fix all the modules that didn't properly activate (not a broadcast)

I can still do this manually, it just adds set up time. Bannable offense? meh.

Rapid deployment, giving chase through gates, and maneuvering were already difficult and prone to problems even with broadcasting, now it is more or less out of the question.

non-drone based pvp is also more or less out of the question, except perhaps capitals where you can have more breathing room between clicks (except for jumping in and out could get tricky, perhaps jump them in one at a time and get it set up)

So bombers nerfed out of existence, these were the focus of most of the calls for the nerfbat, so success there.

Suicide catalysts nerfed out of existence, lesser extent than the bombers, but no love lost there.

Multibox miners: Inconvenienced with a very heavy handed ban threat for attempting to save a little time and a lot of clicks.
Take that you exploiting evil multiboxer, if this doesn't work we will try...THE COMFY CHAIR!!!!

-Soul

I and many of my corp-mates multi-box mine, rat, and/or pvp.
When a roam comes through and sees mackinaws and skiffs, their faces turn to delight as they warp in.
There is nothing more satisfying than wiping that smug off their faces with a drone swarm of death.





Hmmm, bombers are actually in a very strong position right now... with or without ISBoxer broadcasting. This restriction has allowed them to reconsider bombers de-cloaking each other... which was a key point in their viability.


I meant multi-box bombers specifically, manually aligning, manually decloaking, manually bombing, and manually warping each one. can still be effective, especially in tidi. but does not have the same level of alpha/surprise
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#764 - 2014-11-25 21:34:07 UTC
Please Turn wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
Please Turn wrote:


Well, I didn't miss it at all. I just feel(felt) it wasn't relevant in this case(percent wise of total revenue).

I doubt the fluctuation in the average number of purchased PLEX (you buying more PLEX when the price is lower, buying less when the price is higher is kind of balanced by more people having an incentive to buy PLEX when the price is high or not having one when the price is low) is comparable with the fluctuation in the average number of directly paid subscriptions(which has a cascade effect - would people prefer to play a dead game(no growth in the number of undocked players willing to interact with the others undocked players) or one that feels alive and vibrant).

And just to be on the safe side, since I somehow feel that you might have misread my post. Short term, there will be a hit, long term, in my view at least, this is wonderful news.


PLEX prices will drop as demand from the people who currently don't care how high the price is will lessen in the short term.

Once PLEX prices drop, people that DO care how high the price became will begin reactivating accounts. This number will obviously be far larger than the number of multi box accounts lost.

The more PLEX that change hands (usually a symptom of healthy moderate prices) the more actual cash CCP makes.


Ok dude, whatever. I'll stop now trying to argue over silly things on the internet(I'm not even sure we're arguing since you seem to agree with what I wrote, just that you're putting some effort into making it look that you don't).

Roll

Whoa pardner, I was clarifying for the other poster... not arguing with you.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#765 - 2014-11-25 21:36:37 UTC
Balder Verdandi wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Fonac wrote:
So is-boxer is banned?

edit: I Honestly dont care about is-boxer or what it can do, since i've never used it, or met anyone who uses it. But the OP is not very clear on it.



isboxer isn't banned. Some of the things isboxer can do are banned.






CCP & CSM's ...


Posts like this do absolutely zero good. You both need to detail what IS allowed, and what ISN'T allowed.


This typical "VagueBook" garbage doesn't fly with any of the players, and a simple explanation detailing what is allowed and what isn't, in a bullet style list, wouldn't have gotten you 40 pages of "please explain what you mean" posts.


Seriously, stop beating your heads with boards like in Monty Python and talk to us like adults. We're grown ups, we can handle it.

How hard is it to understand "don't use the broadcast feature"?

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#766 - 2014-11-25 21:37:04 UTC
Fiberton wrote:
Nituspar wrote:
As someone who has extensively used ISBoxer for the last year I'd like to thank CCP for having the courage to make this change, and the way it's being implemented.

The grace time will allow people who invested heavily into the program some reprieve to make their investments back, and the general playerbase will not have to deal with singular people wiping out their fleets or multi-billion ships anymore, which was always terrible gameplay.

I believe this is a very positive change to New Eden, and the short-term loss of subscriber revenue will be more than made up for in the long run by players enjoying the game more as a result of it

Thumbs up and keep up the good work CCP


As a person who has never used ISboxer but realize that CCP needs fluff subscribers to pad the wallet.

I am thinking Eve loses 5 to 8% of its logins and I would assume that is a draw of atleast 300k per month in revenue. I am just some nerd who trades stocks for a living and well.. A company that makes a change that loses them revenue on purpose...boggles my mind. About the change.. CCP your stones are bigger than mine. I could never do it just for the sheer cost.

The odd thing is it may have little effect on their revenue, in fact, it may increase it.
Many ISboxer users use PLEX for their accounts. Now CCP does not make money when a PLEX is used. They make money when a PLEX is boiught for real money. So, how will this change effect PLEX sales?

Right now the PLEX is dropping. That means, per dollar, you get less ISK via PLEX. ISK is getting more expensive. Although this will reduce the demand for ISK, it may not reduce CCP's revenue. To see how:

If the PLEX was hugely expansive, very few would be sold as buyers could get all the ISK they wanted for little money. They would instead save their money for other recreational activities. If the PLEX got you very little ISK, again sales would be small as few would see it as a viable way to get ISK. In between, there is a price for PLEX that gets CCP the greatest revenue.

This is common economic theory. Too high a price, no one buys as its too expensive, too cheap, you get many sales, but little revenue on each. In between is an optimum.

Where is the optimum for PLEX? Well, we do not have the needed data. But, Jita volume for PLEX peaked around a price of 500 million. So its possible that lowering the price toward 500 million, by whatever means, will increase CCP's revenue.

Know a Frozen fan? Check this out

Frozen fanfiction
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#767 - 2014-11-25 21:37:54 UTC
Balder Verdandi wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Fonac wrote:
So is-boxer is banned?

edit: I Honestly dont care about is-boxer or what it can do, since i've never used it, or met anyone who uses it. But the OP is not very clear on it.



isboxer isn't banned. Some of the things isboxer can do are banned.






CCP & CSM's ...


Posts like this do absolutely zero good. You both need to detail what IS allowed, and what ISN'T allowed.


This typical "VagueBook" garbage doesn't fly with any of the players, and a simple explanation detailing what is allowed and what isn't, in a bullet style list, wouldn't have gotten you 40 pages of "please explain what you mean" posts.


Seriously, stop beating your heads with boards like in Monty Python and talk to us like adults. We're grown ups, we can handle it.



There's no ambiguity here. Does it transmit one keystroke or mouse click to multiple clients, outside of the context of logging in? If so, then it's banned. If not, go hog wild.

Any attempts to find edge cases to this simple truth are unabashed sophistry.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Rin Valador
Professional Amateurs
#768 - 2014-11-25 21:38:02 UTC
Michelle Monteleone wrote:
Guess my 12 accounts are done as of January 1, 2015. I had fun while it lasted. First Warcraft removed /follow from pvp because of all the cry babies now CCP has removed multiboxing all together. The Eve universe is going to change quite a bit when all the resources people were pumping out with multiple accounts goes away.

Merry Christmas CCP. Thanks for the lump of coal.

See you cry babies in the next mmo I multibox in.Big smile



You can still mine with those 12 acc you crybaby. you just have to actually alt tab and tell each miner to start mining. Stuff plz if you are still leaving

"There will be neither compassion nor mercy; Nor peace, nor solace For those who bear witness to these Signs And still do not believe." - The Scriptures, Book of Reclaiming 25:10
Arec Bardwin
#769 - 2014-11-25 21:38:11 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
OK ccp to who I address the bottle of wine as thanks for this marvelous decision?
I think you need more than a bottle to hold all the whine.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#770 - 2014-11-25 21:38:49 UTC
Michelle Monteleone wrote:
Guess my 12 accounts are done as of January 1, 2015. I had fun while it lasted. First Warcraft removed /follow from pvp because of all the cry babies now CCP has removed multiboxing all together. The Eve universe is going to change quite a bit when all the resources people were pumping out with multiple accounts goes away.

Merry Christmas CCP. Thanks for the lump of coal.

See you cry babies in the next mmo I multibox in.Big smile


Wrong, you can multi-box all you want, you just can't "use your own or any third-party software, macros or other stored rapid keystrokes or other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play."

The plain language of that makes it pretty obvious that ISBoxer was in violation. So feel lucky CCP let it slide as long as they did.

For example, consider this scnario:

Bob wants to have his 10 accounts mine more efficiently, so he writes a program that optimizes the mining fleet he has in a belt. It does pretty much everything, and Bob sits there watching the fleet mine with a smile on his face sipping scotch. Clearly Bob has created a macro.

Joe, wants to do the same thing with his accounts but knows macros are EULA violations so he uses ISBoxer and provides input for one character which is translated, by the program, across the remaining 9 accounts. Joe is happy with his optimized mining fleet and celebrates by getting out some tequila.

From an observational stand point Joe and Bob look identical. Joe is still using a third party program to gain in game items (ore) at a rate faster than "normal" gameplay--i.e. clicking over to each account and activating each mining module. Both Bob and Joe are violating the EULA.

So the only real crybaby here is you and congratulations on also distorting the policies of CCP. Roll

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#771 - 2014-11-25 21:39:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Stygian Soul wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
Stygian Soul wrote:
Breaking down what a miner actually does that does and does not require broadcasting

1: undock (broadcast)
2: Squad warp to belt/bookmark (not a broadcast)
3: Launch drones (broadcast)
4: assist drones to overwatch (broadcast)
5: regroup command (not a broadcast)
6: cycle through each ship to put a laser on a different rock (not a broadcast)
7: jetcan ore or drag to an existing can (broadcast)
8: Squad warp out to POS when done (not a broadcast)
9: Dock when needed (broadcast)

So for mining the only difference will be:
I'll have to dock and undock each ship manually
Launch and assist drones on each ship manually
jetcan the ore from each ship manually

This isn't really that much more difficult to do, and if it means I make more on my harvest and pay less for my plexes because of all the people that quit, then so be it, can't say I'm pleased though. I just don't see how any of this should be a bannable offense.

Now for PvP
Gate camp:

1: squad warp to gate (not a broadcast)
2: launch drones (broadcast)
3: Assist drones (broadcast)
4: Manually go through and fix all the drones that didn't propery launch or assist (not a broadcast)
5: Activate various perma-running modules (broadcast)
6: Manually go through and fix all the modules that didn't properly activate (not a broadcast)

I can still do this manually, it just adds set up time. Bannable offense? meh.

Rapid deployment, giving chase through gates, and maneuvering were already difficult and prone to problems even with broadcasting, now it is more or less out of the question.

non-drone based pvp is also more or less out of the question, except perhaps capitals where you can have more breathing room between clicks (except for jumping in and out could get tricky, perhaps jump them in one at a time and get it set up)

So bombers nerfed out of existence, these were the focus of most of the calls for the nerfbat, so success there.

Suicide catalysts nerfed out of existence, lesser extent than the bombers, but no love lost there.

Multibox miners: Inconvenienced with a very heavy handed ban threat for attempting to save a little time and a lot of clicks.
Take that you exploiting evil multiboxer, if this doesn't work we will try...THE COMFY CHAIR!!!!

-Soul

I and many of my corp-mates multi-box mine, rat, and/or pvp.
When a roam comes through and sees mackinaws and skiffs, their faces turn to delight as they warp in.
There is nothing more satisfying than wiping that smug off their faces with a drone swarm of death.





Hmmm, bombers are actually in a very strong position right now... with or without ISBoxer broadcasting. This restriction has allowed them to reconsider bombers de-cloaking each other... which was a key point in their viability.


I meant multi-box bombers specifically, manually aligning, manually decloaking, manually bombing, and manually warping each one. can still be effective, especially in tidi. but does not have the same level of alpha/surprise


Which would affect what, a couple of dozen players that use that playstyle (ISBoxer bomber fleets)?
That's a pretty small puddle to cover with the cloak of "bombers nerfed out of existence".

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Konrad Kane
#772 - 2014-11-25 21:40:23 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:

How hard is it to understand "don't use the broadcast feature"?


I think 99% of the people here understand it, you have a few that are wilfully pretending not to in a vain attempt to internet lawyer themselves a loophole.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#773 - 2014-11-25 21:41:47 UTC
Konrad Kane wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:

How hard is it to understand "don't use the broadcast feature"?


I think 99% of the people here understand it, you have a few that are wilfully pretending not to in a vain attempt to internet lawyer themselves a loophole.

Yep, I just enjoy making them look a little more ignorant than they are comfortable with every time they try it. Smile

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#774 - 2014-11-25 21:42:34 UTC
Balder Verdandi wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Fonac wrote:
So is-boxer is banned?

edit: I Honestly dont care about is-boxer or what it can do, since i've never used it, or met anyone who uses it. But the OP is not very clear on it.



isboxer isn't banned. Some of the things isboxer can do are banned.






CCP & CSM's ...


Posts like this do absolutely zero good. You both need to detail what IS allowed, and what ISN'T allowed.


This typical "VagueBook" garbage doesn't fly with any of the players, and a simple explanation detailing what is allowed and what isn't, in a bullet style list, wouldn't have gotten you 40 pages of "please explain what you mean" posts.


Seriously, stop beating your heads with boards like in Monty Python and talk to us like adults. We're grown ups, we can handle it.


The announcement does a good job of detailing what is and isn't allowed. It explicitly lists functions that isboxer or any other broadcaster can do without violating the new rules. Steve made it clearer with an explicit no to the question asked. Nothing vague was presented.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#775 - 2014-11-25 21:42:49 UTC
Vincent Athena wrote:
Fiberton wrote:
Nituspar wrote:
As someone who has extensively used ISBoxer for the last year I'd like to thank CCP for having the courage to make this change, and the way it's being implemented.

The grace time will allow people who invested heavily into the program some reprieve to make their investments back, and the general playerbase will not have to deal with singular people wiping out their fleets or multi-billion ships anymore, which was always terrible gameplay.

I believe this is a very positive change to New Eden, and the short-term loss of subscriber revenue will be more than made up for in the long run by players enjoying the game more as a result of it

Thumbs up and keep up the good work CCP


As a person who has never used ISboxer but realize that CCP needs fluff subscribers to pad the wallet.

I am thinking Eve loses 5 to 8% of its logins and I would assume that is a draw of atleast 300k per month in revenue. I am just some nerd who trades stocks for a living and well.. A company that makes a change that loses them revenue on purpose...boggles my mind. About the change.. CCP your stones are bigger than mine. I could never do it just for the sheer cost.

The odd thing is it may have little effect on their revenue, in fact, it may increase it.
Many ISboxer users use PLEX for their accounts. Now CCP does not make money when a PLEX is used. They make money when a PLEX is boiught for real money. So, how will this change effect PLEX sales?


Yes, and somebody had to buy the PLEX that ISBoxers used...so yes, CCP makes money off of PLEX.

This is what makes CCP's decision really good, IMO. Yes, they may well see a drop in revenue as some of the ISBoxers leave the game for good. But the difference between running an all out macro and ISBox was razor thin, so it the long run it will likely be a positive thing for the game.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Angus McRothimay
Fenrir Vangard
#776 - 2014-11-25 21:44:32 UTC
Apo Lamperouge wrote:
Jvpiter wrote:
Angus McRothimay wrote:
However, using an exploit to cover the cost of subscription isn't really subscribing, If no one spent real money on the game there would be no game to play.



The cost of subscription is always paid with real money. There may simply be less buyers of PLEX but we don't have enough information to make a definitive conclusion.



How do you figure? If you are mining 2b a day with these 25+ miners, and a plex is/was say 850m, lets do the math

$15 x 25 = $375 per month.

However, if you are mining say 2b a day, for only 20 days a month out of 30, then your 2b x 20d = 40b

850,000,000 x 25 accounts = 21.25b

That still leaves you with a net profit of 18.75b/month isk.

And you tell me that you are PAYING to play? Are you sh!tting me?

Come on. What moron who profits 18b a month actually BUYS their game time. I may have been born during the day, but it wasn't yesterday.


I'm sorry - I think you misunderstood something.

ALL PLEX in the marketplace are put there by people who originally purchased them with real money - The cost of subscription is ALWAYS paid with real money - it's just not always yours.

OMG, Its obvious, everyone should be running 25 accounts ...... One question : How many PLEX can you buy with 25 billion if there were no PLEX for sale.



CJ Alland
CB Trading
#777 - 2014-11-25 21:45:59 UTC
Something tells me isboxer didn't provide it's yearly "donation" to CCP.
Stygian Soul
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#778 - 2014-11-25 21:46:59 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
Stygian Soul wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
Stygian Soul wrote:
Breaking down what a miner actually does that does and does not require broadcasting

1: undock (broadcast)
2: Squad warp to belt/bookmark (not a broadcast)
3: Launch drones (broadcast)
4: assist drones to overwatch (broadcast)
5: regroup command (not a broadcast)
6: cycle through each ship to put a laser on a different rock (not a broadcast)
7: jetcan ore or drag to an existing can (broadcast)
8: Squad warp out to POS when done (not a broadcast)
9: Dock when needed (broadcast)

So for mining the only difference will be:
I'll have to dock and undock each ship manually
Launch and assist drones on each ship manually
jetcan the ore from each ship manually

This isn't really that much more difficult to do, and if it means I make more on my harvest and pay less for my plexes because of all the people that quit, then so be it, can't say I'm pleased though. I just don't see how any of this should be a bannable offense.

Now for PvP
Gate camp:

1: squad warp to gate (not a broadcast)
2: launch drones (broadcast)
3: Assist drones (broadcast)
4: Manually go through and fix all the drones that didn't propery launch or assist (not a broadcast)
5: Activate various perma-running modules (broadcast)
6: Manually go through and fix all the modules that didn't properly activate (not a broadcast)

I can still do this manually, it just adds set up time. Bannable offense? meh.

Rapid deployment, giving chase through gates, and maneuvering were already difficult and prone to problems even with broadcasting, now it is more or less out of the question.

non-drone based pvp is also more or less out of the question, except perhaps capitals where you can have more breathing room between clicks (except for jumping in and out could get tricky, perhaps jump them in one at a time and get it set up)

So bombers nerfed out of existence, these were the focus of most of the calls for the nerfbat, so success there.

Suicide catalysts nerfed out of existence, lesser extent than the bombers, but no love lost there.

Multibox miners: Inconvenienced with a very heavy handed ban threat for attempting to save a little time and a lot of clicks.
Take that you exploiting evil multiboxer, if this doesn't work we will try...THE COMFY CHAIR!!!!

-Soul

I and many of my corp-mates multi-box mine, rat, and/or pvp.
When a roam comes through and sees mackinaws and skiffs, their faces turn to delight as they warp in.
There is nothing more satisfying than wiping that smug off their faces with a drone swarm of death.





Hmmm, bombers are actually in a very strong position right now... with or without ISBoxer broadcasting. This restriction has allowed them to reconsider bombers de-cloaking each other... which was a key point in their viability.


I meant multi-box bombers specifically, manually aligning, manually decloaking, manually bombing, and manually warping each one. can still be effective, especially in tidi. but does not have the same level of alpha/surprise


Which would affect what, a couple of dozen players that use that playstyle (ISBoxer bomber fleets)?
That's a pretty small puddle to cover with the cloak of "bombers nerfed out of existence".


the couple dozen multibox bombers are the ones that generated the majority of the ISboxer tears.
and I did not intend to say that bombers were getting nerfed, I meant to say
"multi-box bombers are being nerfed out of existence" I thought that was implied
Alexis Nightwish
#779 - 2014-11-25 21:47:32 UTC
I absolutely support this change. I've been on both sides of "Input Broadcasting & Input Multiplexing" and thought it was broken as hell every time.

One thing CCP, focus all your energies on the NPE! The loss of many zombie accounts, while healthy of the gameplay experience as a whole does affect your bottom line and I want to see CCP stay healthy for as long as possible. So, focus on bringing in new blood (and old blood too once you've fixed null sec and high sec mechanics)!

Something I would like clarification on is this:

CCP Falcon wrote:
Input Broadcasting and Input Multiplexing refer to the multiplication of inputs, actions and events to multiple instances of the game.

Does this mean that using special hw or sw to say activate all my hardeners at once to a singular instance of the game is acceptable use?

CCP approaches problems in one of two ways: nudge or cludge

EVE Online's "I win!" Button

Fixing bombs, not the bombers
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#780 - 2014-11-25 21:47:44 UTC
Will there be 35 days of multi-box monument shooting over this so they can show us how many of them are angry?