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Update regarding Multiboxing and input automation

First post First post First post
Author
Jason Xado
Doomheim
#4001 - 2015-04-10 14:59:26 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:

Tell me more about how CCP forced you to play with others. I really want to hear it because I am of course forced to follow the exact same rules as you do and I can do whatever I want in the game alone all by myself without interaction with other player if I see fit.


Before this change I could solo defend myself from incoming enemies while ice mining in null.

After this change I can no longer do that without being forced to "group up".


Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
#4002 - 2015-04-10 15:03:44 UTC
Archibald Thistlewaite III wrote:
Using set up that allow you to do:

F1 = F1 client 1
F2 = F1 client 2
F3 = F1 client 3

Also breaks Eve's EULA/TOS & other policies.
Not that I would bother with this, but how is this against the EULA? If this is against the EULA, then even things such as voice command programs would be against the EULA, because what you're effectively saying is that out of game keybinds even for a single commands are against the EULA.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Archibald Thistlewaite III
The Royal Society for the Prevention of Miners
#4003 - 2015-04-10 15:03:47 UTC
Nolak Ataru wrote:

Alright, if you want to nitpick, I shall acquiesce:
ISBoxer violates 6A2, but not in the way you think.
TS3 violates 6A2.
Mumble violates 6A2
Overwolf violates 6A2
Steam Overlay violates 6A2.
EVE-Online Preview violates 6A2.
Windows Aero violates 6A2.
PYFA violates 6A3.
EFT violates 6A3.
Fuzzworks violates 6A3.
That new market program violates 6A3.

I'm probably missing a bit, but this was what just came to me off the top of my head.


So now you are saying ISBoxer does violate the EULA. What on earth have you been moaning about for the past 200 pages for then?.

Just so you know, you are wrong about them violating the EULA, they can be used to violate the EULA. Thats a vey important distinction you should remember.
Does this mean I get the 1 Billion isk you promised earlier in the thread?

User of 'Bumblefck's Luscious & Luminous Mustachio Wax'

Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#4004 - 2015-04-10 15:04:48 UTC
Jason Xado wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:

Tell me more about how CCP forced you to play with others. I really want to hear it because I am of course forced to follow the exact same rules as you do and I can do whatever I want in the game alone all by myself without interaction with other player if I see fit.


Before this change I could solo defend myself from incoming enemies while ice mining in null.

After this change I can no longer do that without being forced to "group up".




Not being able to do something the way you used to before does not mean CCP force you to do this. If you think it's no longer possible for you to mine ice without ISboxer, then do something else in the game. CCP is not forcing you to mine ice without the defence you used to be able to provide yourself.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
#4005 - 2015-04-10 15:07:10 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Nolak Ataru wrote:
You're conflating ISBoxing and botting. Stop it. You're only underlining your own ignorance of both.
They're extremely similar, that's why you want to avoid the comparison.
They are in fact nothing alike. Botting is about enabling the PC to play independently without requiring human interaction, ISBoxer has absolutely no features to do this.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Archibald Thistlewaite III
The Royal Society for the Prevention of Miners
#4006 - 2015-04-10 15:08:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Archibald Thistlewaite III
Lucas Kell wrote:
Archibald Thistlewaite III wrote:
Using set up that allow you to do:

F1 = F1 client 1
F2 = F1 client 2
F3 = F1 client 3

Also breaks Eve's EULA/TOS & other policies.
Not that I would bother with this, but how is this against the EULA? If this is against the EULA, then even things such as voice command programs would be against the EULA, because what you're effectively saying is that out of game keybinds even for a single commands are against the EULA.


In that example all 3 clients are active and you are sending data to all 3 clients at the same time.CCP Random's little flow chart.

What needs to be done to not break Eve's EULA/TOS & other policies is.

F1
(switch client)
F1
(switch client)
etc..

User of 'Bumblefck's Luscious & Luminous Mustachio Wax'

Charadrass
Angry Germans
#4007 - 2015-04-10 15:14:06 UTC
Archibald Thistlewaite III wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Archibald Thistlewaite III wrote:
Using set up that allow you to do:

F1 = F1 client 1
F2 = F1 client 2
F3 = F1 client 3

Also breaks Eve's EULA/TOS & other policies.
Not that I would bother with this, but how is this against the EULA? If this is against the EULA, then even things such as voice command programs would be against the EULA, because what you're effectively saying is that out of game keybinds even for a single commands are against the EULA.


In that example all 3 clients are active and you are sending data to all 3 clients at the same time.CCP Random's little flow chart.

What needs to be done to not break Eve's EULA/TOS & other policies is.

F1
(switch client)
F1
(switch client)
etc..


bullshit incoming?

you can target each box at a time
you can press only F1 to trigger F1 in client 1
or you can press F1 to F3 for all 3 clients to get the command.

no macros
no broadcasting
no eula violation.

simple windows keyboard layout.
if ccp is going to ban anyone else for that they can also ban changeable keymaps for the russians cause they do that language switch all the time between english and kyrillic.

if you read that flowchart correctly you would have noticed that they mean sending ONE data point to multiple clients at once.
i am sending ONE data point to ONE client at a time.
i am just using my natural born 10 fingers to do that for 10 boxes at nearly the same time.

now go ahead and blame me for using 10 fingers..
i am waiting.
Jason Xado
Doomheim
#4008 - 2015-04-10 15:14:37 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:


Not being able to do something the way you used to before does not mean CCP force you to do this. If you think it's no longer possible for you to mine ice without ISboxer, then do something else in the game. CCP is not forcing you to mine ice without the defence you used to be able to provide yourself.


Exactly CCP no longer wants solo players to be able to defend themselves from the groups.

That is what I have been saying. I just don't know why the sudden hostility to solo game play.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
#4009 - 2015-04-10 15:17:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Lucas Kell
Archibald Thistlewaite III wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Archibald Thistlewaite III wrote:
Using set up that allow you to do:

F1 = F1 client 1
F2 = F1 client 2
F3 = F1 client 3

Also breaks Eve's EULA/TOS & other policies.
Not that I would bother with this, but how is this against the EULA? If this is against the EULA, then even things such as voice command programs would be against the EULA, because what you're effectively saying is that out of game keybinds even for a single commands are against the EULA.


In that example all 3 clients are active and you are sending data to all 3 clients at the same time.CCP Random's little flow chart.

What needs to be done to not break Eve's EULA/TOS & other policies is.

F1
(switch client)
F1
(switch client)
etc..
I think you are confused. By at the same time, they mean with the same keypress. If you press F1 and it presses F1 in 4 clients, that's at the same time. In a setup where F1 does F1 on C1 and F2 does F1 on C2, etc, this is not the same time. I doubt CCP have a policy against global keybinds which is what you are saying.

Edit: Oh and point of note, you are supposedly not allowed to bind 1 key to multiple keys in 1 client either, so you can;t bind F1 to do F1,F2,F3...F8 all at the same time on one client. You can however hit F1-F8 all with your fingers at the same time though, which while technically allowed will show as a macro to CCP, so your fingers are in fact a bannable offense if you use them too efficiently.

According to randoms flowchart, both VFX and round robin are completely acceptable, and yet CCP have confirmed that's not the case, so I'd take randoms flowchart wit ha pinch of salt.

Amusingly though, it's irrelevant. Even if you click between clients pressing F1 into each window, you can still get banned since they have no way of telling if you are using round robin or switching between clients. What it boils down to is "if you are too efficient at multiboxing, you will be banned". Even better, it may be months down the line that ban occurs, and when it does you lose all of your isk too since they are running this under the bot policy not the cheat policy. Then even better than that, if they falsely ban you and refuse to believe that you weren't in fact using tools, your play data gets added to their detection profiles which makes it more likely that they catch a manual multiboxer next time.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Nolak Ataru
Unsanitary Landfill
#4010 - 2015-04-10 15:21:30 UTC
Archibald Thistlewaite III wrote:
So now you are saying ISBoxer does violate the EULA. What on earth have you been moaning about for the past 200 pages for then?.
Just so you know, you are wrong about them violating the EULA, they can be used to violate the EULA. Thats a vey important distinction you should remember.
Does this mean I get the 1 Billion isk you promised earlier in the thread?


6A2 specifies ANY MODIFICATION, so that's TS3, mumble, overwolf, steam, and EVE-O preview banned right off the bat. The others indeed can be used so that they do not violate the EULA, but that would involve not actually using them.

Archibald Thistlewaite III wrote:
In that example all 3 clients are active and you are sending data to all 3 clients at the same time.CCP Random's little flow chart.
What needs to be done to not break Eve's EULA/TOS & other policies is.
F1
(switch client)
F1
(switch client)
etc..

Wait, how are you sending data to all 3 clients at the same time unless you suddenly want to declare that pressing multiple F-keys on the same client is bannable.
OS Flag "Keep On Top" would trigger a false flag on "sending data" and "keeping in focus".
CCP's little flowchart only specified sending inputs simultaneously to each client.
Archibald Thistlewaite III
The Royal Society for the Prevention of Miners
#4011 - 2015-04-10 15:39:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Archibald Thistlewaite III
See the people disagreeing (4070)are the people who claim CCP is banning people unfairly or for no reason.

They do not understand Eve's EULA/TOS & other policies and how they relate to third party programs.

Eve's EULA/TOS & other policies
Also to help you understand it.
Fanfest security presentation
CCP Random's flowchart

When reading and watching, don't presume they mean something they don't actually say.

Edit: I wonder how many players have been banned because you lot keep saying actions which clearly violate Eve's EULA/TOS & other policies are in fact ok to use.

User of 'Bumblefck's Luscious & Luminous Mustachio Wax'

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
#4012 - 2015-04-10 15:53:40 UTC
Archibald Thistlewaite III wrote:
See the people disagreeing (4070)are the people who claim CCP is banning people unfairly or for no reason.
Because they in fact are. I was there at fanfest in the room talking with CCP, and they confirmed they have no ability to determine what the client is doing, there is no client side checking. All they can see is what actions are being taken on the server and they use data analysis to guess if someone is likely to be using tools. If you seriously can't see how this leads to false positives, there's no helping you.

Archibald Thistlewaite III wrote:
They do not understand Eve's EULA/TOS & other policies and how they relate to third party programs.

Eve's EULA/TOS & other policies
Also to help you understand it.
Fanfest security presentation
CCP Random's flowchart
It's quite obvious you yourself have no idea what their policies state, since you're claiming things unrelated to isboxing altogether are suddenly banned. You also repeatedly link CCP randoms flowchart even though it's be stated by CCP that things that are allowed on that flowchart are in fact not allowed.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Trakow
Beta Switch
#4013 - 2015-04-10 18:47:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Trakow
I can't believe how many times this thread goes full circle...

To those who say that ISBoxer has no advantages over using multiple clients or boxes and manually switching clients/boxes to play, then what are you complaining about? Stop using ISBoxer if it's not giving you any advantage. If you WANT to keep using it, then obviously there is an advantage to using it which makes it unfair towards those who don't, otherwise, you yourself wouldn't use it. Also, comparing a single player that is running a fleet to multiple players in a fleet does not make sense, which brings me to my next point.

To those who say they can't defend themselves against groups of people: MAKE FRIENDS! In case you haven't noticed, there are other people playing Eve that you can interact with so you too can also join a fleet or corp. If you can't make friends, then that's your personal social issue that you need to work on.

To those crying that CCP changed rules: So what if they did? They CAN if they want to. IRL new laws and rules are created all the time, and existing rules can change. Complain all you want to the police about how stupid the new law is but you'll still have to pay for it. If a speed limit on a road gets lowered and you continue to drive at the old posted speed, you'll still get pulled over and ticketed for speeding, no matter how much crying you do about how the new limit is too low so you want to keep driving the old limit...

To anyone disagreeing with me or with CCP's rules, and just can't get it through their heads that this change is happening: Quit the game! There are many other games to play out there, Eve is not the only one. So if you don't like it, go away and play something else. Agreeing with the EULA is not required, however, if you want to play, you must agree to it. It's your choice.

Nolak Ataru wrote:

Alright, if you want to nitpick, I shall acquiesce:
ISBoxer violates 6A2, but not in the way you think.
TS3 violates 6A2.
Mumble violates 6A2
Overwolf violates 6A2
Steam Overlay violates 6A2.
EVE-Online Preview violates 6A2.
Windows Aero violates 6A2.
PYFA violates 6A3.
EFT violates 6A3.
Fuzzworks violates 6A3.
That new market program violates 6A3.

I'm probably missing a bit, but this was what just came to me off the top of my head.


Funny, because read here:
CCP Third Party Policies

Quote:

We do not endorse or condone the use of any third party applications or other software that modifies the client or otherwise confers an unfair benefit to players. We may, in our discretion, tolerate the use of applications or other software that simply enhance player enjoyment in a way that maintains fair gameplay. For instance, the use of programs that provide in-game overlays (Mumble, Teamspeak) is not something we plan to actively police at this time. However, if any third party application or other software is used to gain any unfair advantage, or for purposes beyond its intended use, or if the application or other software violates other parts of the EULA, we may fully enforce our rights to prohibit such use, including player bans. Please use such third party applications or other software at your own risk.


Don't know about the other stuff, all I know is TeamSpeak and EFT, but seeing the Windows Aero made me LOL as you're grasping at straws now. And to be honest, I didn't even know that TS3 did overlays. And EFT doesn't interact with the Eve client, so I don't know why that's listed... Might as well list spreadsheets too if that's where you're going with it, along with pen and paper... Regardless, that was not my point in this post, my point is everything above the first quote...
Jason Xado
Doomheim
#4014 - 2015-04-10 19:34:08 UTC
Trakow wrote:

To those who say they can't defend themselves against groups of people: MAKE FRIENDS! In case you haven't noticed, there are other people playing Eve that you can interact with so you too can also join a fleet or corp. If you can't make friends, then that's your personal social issue that you need to work on.


O.K. finally someone who might be able to answer my question.

Do you know why CCP now considered group play to be better than solo play and is trying to force solo players to join groups?

You seem to have a good handle on why group play is morally superior to solo play, so please help me understand.

Thanks.
Trakow
Beta Switch
#4015 - 2015-04-10 20:40:37 UTC
Jason Xado wrote:
Trakow wrote:

To those who say they can't defend themselves against groups of people: MAKE FRIENDS! In case you haven't noticed, there are other people playing Eve that you can interact with so you too can also join a fleet or corp. If you can't make friends, then that's your personal social issue that you need to work on.


O.K. finally someone who might be able to answer my question.

Do you know why CCP now considered group play to be better than solo play and is trying to force solo players to join groups?

You seem to have a good handle on why group play is morally superior to solo play, so please help me understand.

Thanks.


I don't see how you think that CCP considers group play to be better than solo play. You can still easily play solo. I have a couple characters that do, and aren't in corps with anyone. You can play solo and mine, or explore, refine and build, the options are many. However, if you plan to go into more hostile territory like mining in nullsec for example, it's probably best to go with some friends, but hey, that's your choice. If you decide to go mine in nullsec alone, then you're choosing to take that risk, and you should probably stab up. Same goes with anything else, like exploring wormholes for example. If you plan on doing so, it's best to have a fast and/or cloaky ship to minimize the risk. If you plan on taking a Bowhead full of ships across null/lowsec unescorted, that's your choice. Common sense really.

Want to PvP? That's fine too, and it's not hard to find solo PvP'ers in nullsec, and avoid large groups, except sometimes gate camps, but even those are avoidable and can be escaped easily enough if you know what you're doing and you're fitted properly. Seeing a single person in local and finding him is a pretty safe engagement, but if local starts filling fast, then it's time to GTFO. Want to PvP in larger engagements with fleets? Then find a fleet. There's even a built-in fleet finder in Eve itself...

Eve has always been a multiplayer game where you can team up and (insert gameplay pastime here), so I don't know what the issue is with needing to play solo and ONLY solo. Fleets and Corps' are not new, and most MMORPG's have their own versions (Guilds or whatever). Using some software to help you control your own fleet in an easier way than doing it manually is pretty lame IMO, and has the same honor in killing as shooting someone in the back, or back stabbing, whichever you prefer. I also don't see why people who do this think they're superior in the game. Most boxers have all their characters look similar and have similar names, so it's quite obvious on the KB when you see all parties involved that killed a single guy, and it just makes them look like a coward.

If you're really hard set on playing solo, there's plenty of other space games out there that aren't online and don't even require an internet connection. Then you can do what you want and you won't be bothered by other real players in the game, and vice versa.
Nolak Ataru
Unsanitary Landfill
#4016 - 2015-04-10 20:42:54 UTC
Trakow wrote:
I can't believe how many times this thread goes full circle...

To those who say that ISBoxer has no advantages over using multiple clients or boxes and manually switching clients/boxes to play, then what are you complaining about? Stop using ISBoxer if it's not giving you any advantage. If you WANT to keep using it, then obviously there is an advantage to using it which makes it unfair towards those who don't, otherwise, you yourself wouldn't use it. Also, comparing a single player that is running a fleet to multiple players in a fleet does not make sense, which brings me to my next point.

OK, so stop using Mumble, TS3, and Vent because they're better than EVE Voice. Stop using Pyfa and EFT as that's better than buying every mod and trying each mod to see if it will work on a given fit. Stop using Fuzzworks and do your own math for LP stores. Seed every market hub with your own alts and stop using EVE-Central.
ISBoxer allows a player to limit the framerates of each client, alleviating stress on a given computer among other things.

Quote:
To those who say they can't defend themselves against groups of people: MAKE FRIENDS! In case you haven't noticed, there are other people playing Eve that you can interact with so you too can also join a fleet or corp. If you can't make friends, then that's your personal social issue that you need to work on.

I don't make friends easily. Call it a quirk of nature, or whatever, but I could never walk up to someone, introduce myself, and play a round of basketball and become friends. I've been to therapists and social workers, and it didn't help. Also, you're assuming the ISBoxers weren't talking to each other and swapping notes and stuff. We had a channel where a group of us hung out in and talked, so in a way, we did make friends.

Quote:
To those crying that CCP changed rules: So what if they did? They CAN if they want to. IRL new laws and rules are created all the time, and existing rules can change. Complain all you want to the police about how stupid the new law is but you'll still have to pay for it. If a speed limit on a road gets lowered and you continue to drive at the old posted speed, you'll still get pulled over and ticketed for speeding, no matter how much crying you do about how the new limit is too low so you want to keep driving the old limit...

Ah, but IRL, there are officials from both sides of whatever line on the issue. Additionally, people can vote for different officials, and in most if not all issues, players can make their voice heard. And finally, laws IRL can be judged unconstitutional and removed.

Quote:
To anyone disagreeing with me or with CCP's rules, and just can't get it through their heads that this change is happening: Quit the game! There are many other games to play out there, Eve is not the only one. So if you don't like it, go away and play something else. Agreeing with the EULA is not required, however, if you want to play, you must agree to it. It's your choice.
Funny, because read here:
CCP Third Party Policies
Quote:

We do not endorse or condone the use of any third party applications or other software that modifies the client or otherwise confers an unfair benefit to players. We may, in our discretion, tolerate the use of applications or other software that simply enhance player enjoyment in a way that maintains fair gameplay. For instance, the use of programs that provide in-game overlays (Mumble, Teamspeak) is not something we plan to actively police at this time. However, if any third party application or other software is used to gain any unfair advantage, or for purposes beyond its intended use, or if the application or other software violates other parts of the EULA, we may fully enforce our rights to prohibit such use, including player bans. Please use such third party applications or other software at your own risk.


Don't know about the other stuff, all I know is TeamSpeak and EFT, but seeing the Windows Aero made me LOL as you're grasping at straws now. And to be honest, I didn't even know that TS3 did overlays. And EFT doesn't interact with the Eve client, so I don't know why that's listed... Might as well list spreadsheets too if that's where you're going with it, along with pen and paper... Regardless, that was not my point in this post, my point is everything above the first quote...
[/quote]

Dunno why you bolded the part that helped our cause. ISBoxer used to be under the "not policed" section, and that got changed. Who's to say these other programs won't be viewed in the same way? The fact that CCP is picking and choosing which of their own rules to enforce reminds many of us of the days of T20, where a CCP dev spawned T2 BPOs for his nullsec alliance, used his power as Dev to look at private correspondences and character sheets, and was only reprimanded after the news went public and revealed his in-game toon. The site that revealed his identity was punished in retaliation for exposing the fact that CCP is only human. The Internal Affairs division was created here to prevent that exact kind of horse-hockey.

Re-read what I said. EFT was filed under 6A3, aka "accelerated gameplay", not 6A2 "client modification"
Kinete Jenius
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#4017 - 2015-04-10 20:45:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Kinete Jenius
Lucas Kell wrote:
Archibald Thistlewaite III wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Archibald Thistlewaite III wrote:
Using set up that allow you to do:

F1 = F1 client 1
F2 = F1 client 2
F3 = F1 client 3

Also breaks Eve's EULA/TOS & other policies.
Not that I would bother with this, but how is this against the EULA? If this is against the EULA, then even things such as voice command programs would be against the EULA, because what you're effectively saying is that out of game keybinds even for a single commands are against the EULA.


In that example all 3 clients are active and you are sending data to all 3 clients at the same time.CCP Random's little flow chart.

What needs to be done to not break Eve's EULA/TOS & other policies is.

F1
(switch client)
F1
(switch client)
etc..
I think you are confused. By at the same time, they mean with the same keypress. If you press F1 and it presses F1 in 4 clients, that's at the same time. In a setup where F1 does F1 on C1 and F2 does F1 on C2, etc, this is not the same time. I doubt CCP have a policy against global keybinds which is what you are saying.

Edit: Oh and point of note, you are supposedly not allowed to bind 1 key to multiple keys in 1 client either, so you can;t bind F1 to do F1,F2,F3...F8 all at the same time on one client. You can however hit F1-F8 all with your fingers at the same time though, which while technically allowed will show as a macro to CCP, so your fingers are in fact a bannable offense if you use them too efficiently.

According to randoms flowchart, both VFX and round robin are completely acceptable, and yet CCP have confirmed that's not the case, so I'd take randoms flowchart wit ha pinch of salt.

Amusingly though, it's irrelevant. Even if you click between clients pressing F1 into each window, you can still get banned since they have no way of telling if you are using round robin or switching between clients. What it boils down to is "if you are too efficient at multiboxing, you will be banned". Even better, it may be months down the line that ban occurs, and when it does you lose all of your isk too since they are running this under the bot policy not the cheat policy. Then even better than that, if they falsely ban you and refuse to believe that you weren't in fact using tools, your play data gets added to their detection profiles which makes it more likely that they catch a manual multiboxer next time.

Sadly this is the reason why I record my runs. I've got my VG site times down to a pretty reasonable level so it might only be a matter of time now.


Trakow wrote:
To those crying that CCP changed rules: So what if they did? They CAN if they want to. IRL new laws and rules are created all the time, and existing rules can change. Complain all you want to the police about how stupid the new law is but you'll still have to pay for it. If a speed limit on a road gets lowered and you continue to drive at the old posted speed, you'll still get pulled over and ticketed for speeding, no matter how much crying you do about how the new limit is too low so you want to keep driving the old limit...


I have but that doesn't mean I won't be banned for using tools that I'm not actually using. False positives are an issue and that's why some continue this discussion.

Don't bring in real life in that manner in relation to eve as it makes no sense. My counter to your silly scenario is the law that was passed in Indiana. Notice how complaints lead to a "revision" which in reality is a massive change to the law to address the complaints. So "crying" (using your word) resulted in the law being massively changed. Not exactly in line with what your "point" tried to be.
Trakow
Beta Switch
#4018 - 2015-04-10 21:06:19 UTC
Nolak Ataru wrote:

OK, so stop using Mumble, TS3, and Vent because they're better than EVE Voice. Stop using Pyfa and EFT as that's better than buying every mod and trying each mod to see if it will work on a given fit. Stop using Fuzzworks and do your own math for LP stores. Seed every market hub with your own alts and stop using EVE-Central.
ISBoxer allows a player to limit the framerates of each client, alleviating stress on a given computer among other things.


The only thing I've used is TS, and only because the corp did, but I'm perfectly fine using EV. If they changed the rules and said that TS is now banned, then of course, I would stop using it and just stick to EV, which I also use. I wouldn't go on forums ranting about it... They're allowed to change their rules and policies.

Nolak Ataru wrote:

I don't make friends easily. Call it a quirk of nature, or whatever, but I could never walk up to someone, introduce myself, and play a round of basketball and become friends. I've been to therapists and social workers, and it didn't help. Also, you're assuming the ISBoxers weren't talking to each other and swapping notes and stuff. We had a channel where a group of us hung out in and talked, so in a way, we did make friends.


Again, that's your personal issue, sorry to say but it's true. It is what it is. So if you made ISBoxer friends, then play with them...

Nolak Ataru wrote:

Ah, but IRL, there are officials from both sides of whatever line on the issue. Additionally, people can vote for different officials, and in most if not all issues, players can make their voice heard. And finally, laws IRL can be judged unconstitutional and removed.


Yes but that's where my comparison ends, CCP's say is the final and only word.

Nolak Ataru wrote:

Dunno why you bolded the part that helped our cause. ISBoxer used to be under the "not policed" section, and that got changed. Who's to say these other programs won't be viewed in the same way? The fact that CCP is picking and choosing which of their own rules to enforce reminds many of us of the days of T20, where a CCP dev spawned T2 BPOs for his nullsec alliance, used his power as Dev to look at private correspondences and character sheets, and was only reprimanded after the news went public and revealed his in-game toon. The site that revealed his identity was punished in retaliation for exposing the fact that CCP is only human. The Internal Affairs division was created here to prevent that exact kind of horse-hockey.

Re-read what I said. EFT was filed under 6A3, aka "accelerated gameplay", not 6A2 "client modification"


Exactly, like you said; "ISBoxer used to be under the "not policed" section", USED to be, and is no longer. Like I said before, if they said that from now on TS or anything else is no longer allowed, then so be it. I have no problem with that. I played for 7 years with no TS (or anything at all) with no problems, I've only used TS the last 1.5 years...
Kinete Jenius
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#4019 - 2015-04-10 21:13:02 UTC
Trakow wrote:
baaaaa baaaaaaaa baaaaaa.


Look man if you want to be herded blindly along while refusing to use the voice that CCP gave you to use then that's fine. Just don't rag on people for utilizing the tools that CCP gave them in order to do what CCP intended when they created the forums and this post.

My point is that this thread is here to discuss the changes. THe forums were created for feedback purposes. Sometimes that feedback is positive and sometimes it's negative or as you call it "crying". Yelling at everyone to just shut up and keep their opinions to themselves runs counter to the very reason this forum exists.

If you want to just call the people crybabies and move on then that might be more productive.
Jason Xado
Doomheim
#4020 - 2015-04-10 21:19:52 UTC
Trakow wrote:
Jason Xado wrote:
Trakow wrote:

To those who say they can't defend themselves against groups of people: MAKE FRIENDS! In case you haven't noticed, there are other people playing Eve that you can interact with so you too can also join a fleet or corp. If you can't make friends, then that's your personal social issue that you need to work on.


O.K. finally someone who might be able to answer my question.

Do you know why CCP now considered group play to be better than solo play and is trying to force solo players to join groups?

You seem to have a good handle on why group play is morally superior to solo play, so please help me understand.

Thanks.


I don't see how you think that CCP considers group play to be better than solo play. You can still easily play solo. I have a couple characters that do, and aren't in corps with anyone. You can play solo and mine, or explore, refine and build, the options are many. However, if you plan to go into more hostile territory like mining in nullsec for example, it's probably best to go with some friends, but hey, that's your choice. If you decide to go mine in nullsec alone, then you're choosing to take that risk, and you should probably stab up. Same goes with anything else, like exploring wormholes for example. If you plan on doing so, it's best to have a fast and/or cloaky ship to minimize the risk. If you plan on taking a Bowhead full of ships across null/lowsec unescorted, that's your choice. Common sense really.

Want to PvP? That's fine too, and it's not hard to find solo PvP'ers in nullsec, and avoid large groups, except sometimes gate camps, but even those are avoidable and can be escaped easily enough if you know what you're doing and you're fitted properly. Seeing a single person in local and finding him is a pretty safe engagement, but if local starts filling fast, then it's time to GTFO. Want to PvP in larger engagements with fleets? Then find a fleet. There's even a built-in fleet finder in Eve itself...

Eve has always been a multiplayer game where you can team up and (insert gameplay pastime here), so I don't know what the issue is with needing to play solo and ONLY solo. Fleets and Corps' are not new, and most MMORPG's have their own versions (Guilds or whatever). Using some software to help you control your own fleet in an easier way than doing it manually is pretty lame IMO, and has the same honor in killing as shooting someone in the back, or back stabbing, whichever you prefer. I also don't see why people who do this think they're superior in the game. Most boxers have all their characters look similar and have similar names, so it's quite obvious on the KB when you see all parties involved that killed a single guy, and it just makes them look like a coward.

If you're really hard set on playing solo, there's plenty of other space games out there that aren't online and don't even require an internet connection. Then you can do what you want and you won't be bothered by other real players in the game, and vice versa.


You still didn't answer the question. Why is group play considered better. You seem to misunderstand solo player vs. solo character. I am talking about a solo player, not a solo character.

If I want to run 10 accounts(with 1 player) and go toe-to-toe with 10 other accounts(with 10 players), why should the 10 accounts each with a player behind them be better than the 10 accounts with just one player behind them.

Before this change the 10 solo accounts could compete with the 10 group accounts. Now the 10 group accounts are better, per CCP mandate.

I still have the question. WHY????