EVE General Discussion

You misinterpreted my statement and proved you didn't read the last 20 pages of this thread. I was saying you needed citations / evidence for your claim that ISBoxer = cheating.
While yes, you can theoretically use ISBoxer, you must have an advanced knowledge of Python and the underlying code of Inner Space in order to make it possibly work. But then you go into the "guilty before proven innocent" line of thinking that we're told again and again in Criminal Justice classes to avoid. Person X is driving through a seedy part of town on her way home. She may indeed be a drug dealer, but we can't pull her over unless we see something or have proof or probable cause. Just because a person may be walking down Clay Street doesn't mean he's guilty of a crime.
But let's move this to a separate setting. Let's talk about tax fraud for a moment. I use TurboTax to defraud the IRS for $2 million. I get caught, and tossed in jail. Is TurboTax (the company or the programmers) culpable? No.

I have never claimed that Isboxer = cheating. I think you'll find I clearly said the opposite, so I'm going to have to insist you stop lying about what I've written.

I haven't read the last 20 pages. I read the first 20(ish) pages and decided to show my support for CCP's actions in banning those people that cheat (as in break the EULA/TOS). For some reason you decided to pick an argument with me.

I don't know which part of CCP banning the cheats and me thinking Eve is a better game without them you disagree with? If you are happy for CCP not to enforce the EULA/TOS and think Eve is better with the cheats still around, then that is fine. You are entitled to your own opinion.



You're thinking of an out and out botting program there. Isboxer is not a botting program.

As for the rest of your post, I would like to add water is wet. Innocent until proven guilty and the dangers of assuming guilt by association are such basic concepts I have to wonder why you felt the need to state the bleedin' obvious. Just because you need telling 'again and again in Criminal Justice class' doesn't mean any one else needs to have the basic principles of law and order explained to them.

It did however make me go back and read the later parts of the thread to see why you are so defensive about cheats being banned from the game. I came up with 2 conclusions. The first being you don't think CCP banning Input Broadcasting & Input Multiplexing was the correct action to take. In which case I would lobby CCP to change it, a CSM might be a good person to do this.

Secondly, I get the impression you think CCP is not only banning people who use Isboxer to cheat, but is also just banning people who use Isboxer. (If this is not the case, let me know and I'll stike this part through)

The first thing to say is [Citation needed] you can't go around throwing that phrase at people and not provide your own.

Now I'm going to do a bit of stating the bleedin' obvious myself. When people get caught doing something they shouldn't be doing, they lie in an attempt to avoid the punishment. If your Criminal Justice class hasn't already covered this I'm sure they will. One of the ways they do this is by the half truth.

eg; A player gets caught using Input Broadcasting & Input Multiplexing (via Isboxer) and is banned by CCP. This player doesn't want his account banned so he claims he was using Isboxer but only using the parts of the program that are allowed in an attempt to garner support and cloud the issue enough for CCP to bow to public pressure and let the infraction slide.

CCP has far more information on whether a player is breaking the EULA/TOS then we ever will. So when you are looking for your proof that CCP is banning anyone who is using Isboxer, that proof is not just a player claiming they were just using the parts of Isboxer that are allowed.

What part of input broadcasting do you consider to be a cheat? CCP has always had an anti-bot policy which has been enforced regularly which makes your statements strange regarding this change. I wrote a 7 page essay on the subject and the only sentient thing I've gotten in reply was worded in such a way as to curl the hair on your grandmother's head. I've received so much harassment over this thing that my spam folder is envious of my hate folder. So you'll please excuse me if I search far and wide for someone, ANYONE, who can give me a legitimate reason why input broadcasting breaks the EULA, and ask anyone who mentions it to explain.

As for my citation, I've given links to the dual-boxing threads, but I cannot provide actual proof on the EVE-O forums unless CCP removes their ban on GM / Dev correspondences.

I do hope you realize that input broadcasting was only recently ruled a cheat, and only because CSM corebloodbrother pestered CCP long enough to get them to change it. And you still haven't told me *why* input broadcasting is cheating other than an appeal to authority fallacy. Additionally, from a simple video of "rugby tackle" they appear to be legal in football, or at least the ones demonstrated in the video I watched.


[Citation Needed]. Please tell me where I "lied".


Absence of evidence on these forums does not equal evidence of absence, especially with CCP's ban on posting tickets, GM correspondences, and other such information. I wrote the essay as a way to argue against the changes, and I incorporated many of the arguments presented in this thread into the essay. I have not been lying, and if you consider challenging someone to present their beliefs in a reasonable manner without the usage of feelings or fallacies, then I suggest you return to Tumblr. And once again, ask on the multiboxer forums for your proof.

Actually they just banned a 5-boxer who uses ISBoxer to swap windows and limit framerates while he was mining in a belt. If you joined the forums and asked, you'd get evidence / proof that is unable to be presented here. Additionally, even by a strict interpretation of the EULA, rollovers and round robin aren't in violation of the EULA, yet we keep getting banned for it.


I "picked an argument", as you say, because I grew up in a system / society where if you didn't defend your beliefs, or couldn't articulate why you believe a certain way, then they held no value and could be dismissed. Is it so wrong to ask someone to justify or back up why they think a certain thing is "cheating"? As much as I hate it, you sound awfully like those who hate on fleet boosters in PVP because they consider it "cheating".
I do think EVE is better without bots, and without hacks or market-updaters that operate in seconds. One reason I used to run my own FPS servers is because of the ability to remove hackers who evaded the detection programs. I however do not believe that ISBoxer's input broadcasting function is any of these, nor that it violates the EULA. I do not believe that it can be considered anything other than a tool to mimic multiple players in a fleet, with all of the downsides and very little of the advantages.

Post 3826. You claimed I said Isboxer = cheating

You lied.

Post 3831. You claimed I made a strange statement regarding a change in CCP's anti-bot policy.

You lied.

You do realise that every time you go [citation needed] and then continue to be either unwilling or unable to provide any yourself you become a hypocrite. That's 2 not particularly pleasant personality traits you are displaying.


What you believe doesn't matter. Eve is a game and like all games it has rules. CCP decides those rules. CCP interprets those rules. CCP judges whether someone is breaking those rules. You don't have to like it but if you want to play the game you need to play within the rules.




[Citation neede] Actually don't bother as it makes no difference if you are still lying.

If you believe a CSM has enough influence over CCP to change the rules of the game, then you are in a good position. Goonswarm typically gets a couple of good representatives onto the CSM each time. If your argument for allowing Isboxer is as strong as you think it is, then you should have no problem getting a CSM member to back you. You might want to stop the lying and hypocrisy if you contact them as no-one likes that sort of behavior.



I agree with you here. I too think Eve is a better place without the cheats. Although in a FPS game you can use your own server to remove the cheats you can't do that in Eve. The only way to remove cheats in Eve is for CCP to do it. So if you also think Eve is better without the cheats and that CCP is right to ban the cheats (You can not think one without the other due to the nature of Eve's single server model). Then why on earth did you start an argument over my first post?

I'm replying to this in another post because it has absolutely nothing to do with my first post you took exception to.

I decided to take you up on your suggestion to look into the matter myself and have spent the morning going through posts on multi-boxing forums that claim they were banned and I think I may be able to help you understand why these people are falling foul of the EULA.



Link and emphasis is mine.

Now, when I was looking for the evidence you say is out there I watched numerous video clips of people using Isboxer (and other similar software) and they all had one thing in common. They used the videofx (type of program) to modify the way the game is displayed in the eve client.


emphasis mine again.

I take what CCP Falcon says above to mean I can use those videofx programs to move the eve online client around my desk top. So instead of having say 4 monitors each with its own client, I can use one big monitor and have all 4 clients displayed next to each other.

It would seem a lot of the Isboxers have taken what CCP Falcon has said to mean they can use videofx to cut out different parts of the client and overlay them onto a 'main' client. Which is falling foul of the EULA 6-2 about modifying content appearing within the game.

Now this is just my interpretation of the EULA and my understanding of what CCP Falcon has said. Which of course carries no more weight than your own, so I have no intention of arguing with you about it. I just thought it was worth mentioning.

You can't read correctly right?
and i was thinking i am bad with english...

you are allowed to use broadcast function of isboxer to
login
move windows in eve around.
you are just not allowed to interact with broadcasts with the universe.

what you can do
is using video fx to get a better overview

and btw: isboxer is not modifying eve. its just an overlay. like aero desktop from windows 7. it is like taking a webcam and displaying the result on another part of the screen.

btw: nice skipping of my post.

Correct.


Correct.


Correct.


CCP Falcon disagrees. He says you can use it to move the Eve online client around within your desktop.



Correct

I skipped your post because it had no value and wasn't directed towards me.

I've answered that already, but since you apologised for lying I will tell you again.

CCP says its cheating (as in breaks the EULA/TOS) source

You may not agree with them but it makes no difference. You seem to like comparing a game to the real world, so maybe this will help you understand.

Why do I think a motorist on a British motorway travelling at 80mph is speeding?

Simply because the speed limit on British motorways is 70mph (or lower). It doesn't matter if I agree or disagree. I can either travel at 70mph (or lower) or travel faster and risk a driving ban.

As I said. I have no intention in arguing over whose interpretation of the EULA is correct, as its CCP's that actually matters. I just found it interesting that CCP Falcon specifically mentions using Isboxer in regards to "Window positions and arrangements (of the EVE Online client in your operating system’s desktop environment)". You notice he clarifies Eve online client within the desktop. The videos I've seen have all had bits of the client cut out and overlayed on top of another client within the desktop. Subtle difference but that's EULAs for you.



So am I. It doesn't give him the right to be rude.

Yes, you are right which is one of the reasons why German Autobahn doesn't (typically) have an upper speed limit. In fact you are more likely to get stopped by the police for going to slow if you are in the overtaking lane.

But that doesn't change the fact in Britain you would be speeding and you risk a ban.

I struck the rest of the quote through as its embarrassing for you.



Quite correct. In most countries the government and the court system are usually separated. A criminal saying I don't believe I committed a crime is not an excuse to commit said crime. Judges decide that sort of thing and in Eve CCP are the judges.



And back to lying again.What makes you say I refuse to think critically of what is said to me. I'm very critical of what you are saying to me and I whilst I will always listen, I find you like lying so I choose not to believe you.



Another lie, I didn't skip the 'windows aero bit' and you are right VideoFX has not been banned (just like Isboxer is not banned) but guess what? If CCP catches you using ANY program/hardware/kitchenware to cheat (ie;break the EULA/TOS) they will be within their rights to ban you. It doesn't matter if you agree with them or not.

1) So what.
2) Yes, but what are so many people doing. They are recording themselves.

Your whole tirade against my post of support for CCP (which it turns out you agree with) seems to stem from your belief that the recent rule changes that affect multi-boxers shouldn't of occurred. You say a CSM corebloodbrother used his influence to get CCP to make that rule change. The solution is right there in front of you. As I said before, Goonswarm the alliance you are part of typically gets a couple of good people onto the CSM. They also tend to have influence over other CSM simply because of the size of player base that belongs to it. Take your proposal to one of those CSM members and see if CCP can be persuaded to change their ruling back.

Picking arguments with people who make comments you actually agree with is not the way to garner support.
Lying about what other people have written is not the way to garner support.
Being hypocritical by asking everyone to prove every last statement they make (Citation needed etc) whilst being unable or unwilling to prove your own, is not the way to garner support.

Now I'm going to re-post my message of support for CCP and then I'm going to leave this thread in your incapable hands.

Keep up the good work CCP.

Please continue to ban all the people who feel they have a right to cheat when playing a computer game, whether they use Isboxer or any other means to do so. Kick them out of the game for good.