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Update regarding Multiboxing and input automation

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Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#3241 - 2015-01-28 13:44:54 UTC
super hornet wrote:
However i am confused was i reading that you can get banned for Pushing ya hot-keys too fast.
That seems a bit ridiculous imho.

I saw some posts of people slowing down there play for this reason also on this note i would like to know if you did get banned how could you prove that you wasn't using software to get that apology ?

I dont mean to go off in Tangent but on another note i see some guys streaming and some gamers that are exceptionally fast at multitasking and they could get punished for playing too fast.

Just seems a bit Naff to me.

Maybe its due to the fact that there is no Fine line at the moment, and all theese areas should be Elaborated in a Pinned DEV answers questions post.
That is in essence what is being reported right now. People who have optimised setups (good window layouts, multiple monitors, etc) have reportedly been banned without using any third party software. I'm not sure how CCP's detection works, but it's feasible it looks at commands occuring in the same tick, which is 1 second in EVE. 1 second is quite a long time for a seasoned gamer to hammer inputs.

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Flash Startraveler
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#3242 - 2015-01-28 14:13:26 UTC
I have never used ISBoxer and probably never will. My Problem is that the only thing some people have to say is "don't use a program" when the matter isn't bans because of using a program but a ban without using one.

Marsha Mallow wrote:
I agree. The title should have been: Update regarding botting. There's no difference between at keyboard and AFK botting except to those trying to justify being a grubby little farmer.

There is a difference but some are just don't care about the differences between the things they don't like.

Marsha Mallow wrote:
If you keep screeching in outrage it's not unreasonable for the rest of us to comment that you're a bunch of lunatics who deserve to be banned just for being annoying.

Please comment that we are a bunch of lunatics somewhere else, we are trying to get some information here. And as i said, i don't use ISBoxer or any other similar program.

Marsha Mallow wrote:
This victim mentality you all have seems a bit odd. I got the impression CCP were monitoring client behaviour then issuing bans based upon that. I've not seen anyone announcing a crusade to report multiboxers. If individual players did file excessive reports out of malice, I doubt the GMs would take kindly to it.

Oh there was an ingame mail, but i'm not sure if i'm allowed to show it here.

Marsha Mallow wrote:
Perhaps you should read the OP and apply some common sense. There's no outright ban on multiboxing software, but if you use it then continue to control excessive numbers of clients seamlessly giving the appearance of botting behaviour, you might get banned. And it's entirely your own fault, because you chose to do it. No one forced you. Rather than howling about how unfair it is.... maybe you should just stop doing it?

See, the thing is we are not primarly talking about the use of some kind of software until someone like you posts some rage about us "raging" without really reading anything but the last few posts. And again multiboxing ≠ botting, if you like it or not.
super hornet
Perkone
Caldari State
#3243 - 2015-01-28 17:24:43 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
super hornet wrote:
However i am confused was i reading that you can get banned for Pushing ya hot-keys too fast.
That seems a bit ridiculous imho.

I saw some posts of people slowing down there play for this reason also on this note i would like to know if you did get banned how could you prove that you wasn't using software to get that apology ?

I dont mean to go off in Tangent but on another note i see some guys streaming and some gamers that are exceptionally fast at multitasking and they could get punished for playing too fast.

Just seems a bit Naff to me.

Maybe its due to the fact that there is no Fine line at the moment, and all theese areas should be Elaborated in a Pinned DEV answers questions post.
That is in essence what is being reported right now. People who have optimised setups (good window layouts, multiple monitors, etc) have reportedly been banned without using any third party software. I'm not sure how CCP's detection works, but it's feasible it looks at commands occuring in the same tick, which is 1 second in EVE. 1 second is quite a long time for a seasoned gamer to hammer inputs.



I was thinking the same.

Might want to put a disclaimer when account creation process.

" Multiboxing is allowed but playing them to fast may result in a Ban "
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#3244 - 2015-01-28 19:07:00 UTC
I'm looking for some clarification (not going to find that in this long mess of a thread), so I made a petition on it and the answer I got back was "read this thread" Roll


Does making use of a G15 keyboard for basic stuff like binding function keys to control+space, alt+d, F1-F4 and that sort of stuff now cause me to get in trouble?
Flash Startraveler
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#3245 - 2015-01-28 19:18:46 UTC
If you issue more than one cammand with one click, then yes, this is macro using and forbidden.
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#3246 - 2015-01-28 19:21:47 UTC
Flash Startraveler wrote:
If you issue more than one cammand with one click, then yes, this is macro using and forbidden.


It is not. Here's how I described the situation:



- I have a Logitech keyboard which allows me to program certain keys

- all I use those keys for are direct input>direct output. So one key is control+space (stop ship), another opens my Dscanner, yet another activates keys F1-F4. Stuff like that

- there is no automation or advanced programming going on

- there are no delayed actions happening, as said simple in>out.




I realise I'm kinda discussing petitions but if the GM doesn't answer in any way other than "go here and read" then I don't really have any other options.
Flash Startraveler
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#3247 - 2015-01-28 20:14:33 UTC
so you are performing one action with one klick, but as soon as one click for example opens your hangar and you d-scan its not allowed. (rages about example incoming)
Nolak Ataru
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#3248 - 2015-01-28 20:35:45 UTC
Flash Startraveler wrote:
so you are performing one action with one klick, but as soon as one click for example opens your hangar and you d-scan its not allowed. (rages about example incoming)

One way CCP could get rid of this grey area is to allow the EVE client to detect Logitech G Keys and bind those. I'd be very much in favor of that.
KC Kamikaze
Blue-Fire
#3249 - 2015-01-28 20:39:48 UTC
I doubt very much people are getting banned for fast actions. It sucks that ccp are not communicating about this I do feel they should put an end to the rumors maybe not by sharing their detection methods but by explaining why people were banned. If someone really wasn't using isboxer or equivalent and got banned thats pretty sketchy. By that logic though I'd probably already be banned too. I spam buttons ... jump .. warp .. approach ... target .. if they couldn't differentiate rapid button presses on one client to button presses on many I'd have been banned with the rest of them.

Lets for once try not to overreact but maybe as a group voice our concern that CCP needs to give us some visibility to what is happening with people getting banned and squash the rumors... and CSM's should be at the front of the line communicating this message.
Kinete Jenius
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#3250 - 2015-01-28 20:42:11 UTC
Marsha Mallow wrote:
This victim mentality you all have seems a bit odd. I got the impression CCP were monitoring client behaviour then issuing bans based upon that. I've not seen anyone announcing a crusade to report multiboxers. If individual players did file excessive reports out of malice, I doubt the GMs would take kindly to it.

From what I have personally seen I think CCP is just responding to petitions. I know about every time I am noticed running my VG fleet that I get comments about me being a cheater a botter and how they are going to report me. I've also had this happen in random in game chat channels when my multiboxing would come up. It's quite obvious there's a lot of people in game with serious "hateboners" (sorry had to steal that) against multiboxers and especially anyone using innerspace oh excuse me "isboxer"..

I run three monitors with multiple machines so I'm more then a bit worried that I might perform some actions too quickly and get caught up when someone reports me. I also am quite concerned about what happens when a node lags resulting in my commands suddenly all arriving at the server at the same time.
Orchid Fury
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#3251 - 2015-01-28 21:26:38 UTC
Nolak Ataru wrote:
As for the "3rd party programs giving unfair advantage" claims, again, uninstall PYFA and EVEMon, never touch Siggy and Fuzzworks or EVE-Central or any of the manufacturing websites again, and then you can


how do these tools directly interact with the game world, like at all? nothing about them is even remotely related to the client controlling stuff isboxer does. which unfair advantage do tools like pyfa give? please elaborate on your bullshit statement.
you need to seriously open your eyes.
ashley Eoner
#3252 - 2015-01-28 21:29:10 UTC  |  Edited by: ashley Eoner
Orchid Fury wrote:
Nolak Ataru wrote:
As for the "3rd party programs giving unfair advantage" claims, again, uninstall PYFA and EVEMon, never touch Siggy and Fuzzworks or EVE-Central or any of the manufacturing websites again, and then you can


how do these tools directly interact with the game world, like at all? nothing about them is even remotely related to the client controlling stuff isboxer does. which unfair advantage do tools like pyfa give? please elaborate on your bullshit statement.
you need to seriously open your eyes.

Being able to fit a ship without spending the isk to buy the parts would be an unfair advantage when compared to those that don't use them.


My computer has an SSD and serious hardware so I can swing through clients in the middle of a battle much quicker then you can. That's an unfair advantage to some.

My internet is up 99.9% of the time and never lags that would be considered an unfair advantage over those that play eve on a laggy connection.

My reflexes are faster then the average person so I can processing input faster and engage in output quicker which some would consider an unfair advantage.

I make good money in real life so I can buy plexes to buy better ships then you without any real effort. That would be considered an unfair advantage to some.

I have an alliance that hot drops all day long whenever I want. Most anyone would consider that an unfair advantage.


I could seriously spend all evening listing things that people consider to be unfair advantages.

ISboxer doesn't interact with the game any more then your operating system does (aero even). The person playing the game is the one doing the interacting.
KC Kamikaze
Blue-Fire
#3253 - 2015-01-28 21:38:33 UTC
Orchid Fury wrote:
Nolak Ataru wrote:
As for the "3rd party programs giving unfair advantage" claims, again, uninstall PYFA and EVEMon, never touch Siggy and Fuzzworks or EVE-Central or any of the manufacturing websites again, and then you can


how do these tools directly interact with the game world, like at all? nothing about them is even remotely related to the client controlling stuff isboxer does. which unfair advantage do tools like pyfa give? please elaborate on your bullshit statement.
you need to seriously open your eyes.



Do you even know what siggy is?

Siggy doesn't interact with the game client?

That right there is enough of a statement to make me stop reading your posts.



At any rate the argument about other tools is a moot point. I'd be more interested in what's going on with the ccp banhammer at the moment and why.
Orchid Fury
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#3254 - 2015-01-28 21:44:58 UTC
KC Kamikaze wrote:
Orchid Fury wrote:
Nolak Ataru wrote:
As for the "3rd party programs giving unfair advantage" claims, again, uninstall PYFA and EVEMon, never touch Siggy and Fuzzworks or EVE-Central or any of the manufacturing websites again, and then you can


how do these tools directly interact with the game world, like at all? nothing about them is even remotely related to the client controlling stuff isboxer does. which unfair advantage do tools like pyfa give? please elaborate on your bullshit statement.
you need to seriously open your eyes.



Do you even know what siggy is?

Siggy doesn't interact with the game client?

That right there is enough of a statement to make me stop reading your posts.



At any rate the argument about other tools is a moot point. I'd be more interested in what's going on with the ccp banhammer at the moment and why.


ofc i know siggy, pyfa, eft, eve-central. read again what i wrote. seriously.
KC Kamikaze
Blue-Fire
#3255 - 2015-01-28 22:04:41 UTC
You've clearly trained Autism V and I applaud you for actually showing it off. So you can understand I'll make it simple.

How does siggy interact with the client (multiple clients really):

1. Shows you where your corp members are in your chain
2. allows you to set desitnation to systems you have in your map and count jumps with exit finder
3. track signatures and edit them

How do you do this stuff with siggy: click **** in the browser window

how does isboxer interact without broadcasting:

i have to click **** in videofx windows


Are you still sure nothing about siggy interacts with the game client? Roll
ashley Eoner
#3256 - 2015-01-28 22:06:14 UTC
KC Kamikaze wrote:
You've clearly trained Autism V and I applaud you for actually showing it off. So you can understand I'll make it simple.

How does siggy interact with the client (multiple clients really):

1. Shows you where your corp members are in your chain
2. allows you to set desitnation to systems you have in your map and count jumps with exit finder
3. track signatures and edit them

How do you do this stuff with siggy: click **** in the browser window

how does isboxer interact without broadcasting:

i have to click **** in videofx windows


Are you still sure nothing about siggy interacts with the game client? Roll




VideoFX only works because of aero. Turn that off and you can't even use videofx..
Marsha Mallow
#3257 - 2015-01-28 22:12:26 UTC
Siggy, Pyfa, Evemon, EveHQ etc are free. Botting software is not, which is why it falls into the P2W category. I'm not sure paying to farm is winning anything other than a Darwin award, but it's still paying a 3rd party for an ingame advantage. So yup, you're scum.

ashley Eoner wrote:
I could seriously spend all evening listing things that people consider to be unfair advantages.

Perhaps the real problem is people being able to log in unlimited clients at once.

No-one really has an issue with the types who multibox a few miners manually, but 90 man fleets run by one person is taking the ****. I'd have no issue with CCP instituting a hard cap on the number of clients a single player can log in and integrating multiboxing tools into the client. But I suspect the types who are sneering at the rest of us as 'EvE Vanilla' players would burst into flames at the idea of rebalances that keep P2W mechanics in check for the good of the wider playerbase at their expense.

Ah well, let's see how many 'innocent' nimble fingered farmers have to be sacrificed for the greater good until the message gets through.

Ripard Teg > For the morons in the room:

Sweets > U can dd my face any day
ashley Eoner
#3258 - 2015-01-28 22:22:31 UTC
Marsha Mallow wrote:
Siggy, Pyfa, Evemon, EveHQ etc are free. Botting software is not, which is why it falls into the P2W category. I'm not sure paying to farm is winning anything other than a Darwin award, but it's still paying a 3rd party for an ingame advantage. So yup, you're scum.

ashley Eoner wrote:
I could seriously spend all evening listing things that people consider to be unfair advantages.

Perhaps the real problem is people being able to log in unlimited clients at once.

No-one really has an issue with the types who multibox a few miners manually, but 90 man fleets run by one person is taking the ****. I'd have no issue with CCP instituting a hard cap on the number of clients a single player can log in and integrating multiboxing tools into the client. But I suspect the types who are sneering at the rest of us as 'EvE Vanilla' players would burst into flames at the idea of rebalances that keep P2W mechanics in check for the good of the wider playerbase at their expense.

Ah well, let's see how many 'innocent' nimble fingered farmers have to be sacrificed for the greater good until the message gets through.
I know I really shouldn't respond to this troll but I don't want people who on the fence to be getting bad information.

Eve takes up about 600-800mb of ram when sitting. It'll peak at 1 GB something when undocking or warping into a battle. So there's a definite hard limit to the number of clients you can run. While innerspace does allow for better resource management it doesn't allow you to squeeze more then a couple extra clients out.

Your hard cap would be impossible to impose.

According to your definition then almost every single game in existence (if not every game) is P2W and EVE itself has always been P2W.

I played in beta and the early days. People multiboxed then too.
Nolak Ataru
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#3259 - 2015-01-28 22:28:24 UTC
Marsha Mallow wrote:
Siggy, Pyfa, Evemon, EveHQ etc are free. Botting software is not, which is why it falls into the P2W category.

You're absolutely correct that botting software is a paid product (not counting stuff you code yourself). Good thing ISBoxer isn't a botting program!
ISBoxer is a subscription-based service, true, however there are free alternatives out there, and there are ways to never pay for ISBoxer again, not counting cracks.
Orchid Fury
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#3260 - 2015-01-28 22:59:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Orchid Fury
KC Kamikaze wrote:
You've clearly trained Autism V and I applaud you for actually showing it off. So you can understand I'll make it simple.

How does siggy interact with the client (multiple clients really):

1. Shows you where your corp members are in your chain
2. allows you to set desitnation to systems you have in your map and count jumps with exit finder
3. track signatures and edit them

How do you do this stuff with siggy: click **** in the browser window

how does isboxer interact without broadcasting:

i have to click **** in videofx windows


Are you still sure nothing about siggy interacts with the game client? Roll





then you grandiose ****** should read again what i wrote. not a single one of the tools mentioned interact with the client in a way that has an unfair advantage to the game world. siggy does not provide you with intel tools which are unvailable thru other means, eft does not allow you to fit modules which are otherwise unfittable, eve-central does not show you orders unavailable to others. yet isboxer allows you to controll more clients at once than would be humanly possible without it. see where we are going dude?