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Update regarding Multiboxing and input automation

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Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#2801 - 2014-12-23 22:02:08 UTC
Rosewalker wrote:
Your using Teamspeak as the example is interesting. If you look in the Third Party Policies, Teamspeak is specifically mentioned as an app that technically violates the EULA, but CCP doesn't really care about. Or at least they won't enforce the EULA against its use.

Also, you might want to look at what CCP is saying about the more complex keybinds. CCP Random of Team Security was asked on Twitter by CSM member Steve Ronuken about turning all your hardeners with one hotkey on a mouse. He said that was the definition of a macro. And on Sunday, Mike Azariah said on EVE Radio that he was going to have to stop using his macro that turns on all his hardeners at the same time. So I don't think it's allowed anymore. I personally think that means we have to look at the wording in the EULA, ToS, etc, and forget about any rulings that are currently posted on the forums. CCP Random on Twitter basically stated that, and I think CCP Grimmi said it clearer than you can in a tweet that limits you to 140 characters max.
Then I can see a lot of people getting banned, because it's not mbeen made even remotely clear that things that used to be tolerated suddenly won't be.

Rosewalker wrote:
This actually isn't just a multiboxing question. I originally started asking around about this because someone asked me about a market application called Evernus. I've asked around and the fast copy option really looks sketchy and does just about the same as the ISBoxer round robin feature. I think the only difference is that Evernus performs multiple actions in the EVE client, while the ISBoxer round robin only does one, with all the other magic happening in ISBoxer. I don't know the final answer because CCP Foxfour is on vacation.
Yeah Evernus is just an amalgamation of the old eve-mentat tool and Elinor. Take a look at EvE-mentat, it's pretty much the same UI. Elinor's UI and function is exactly that of the "export item list, auto-copy price". Both of these tools have been allowed for years. If suddenly their function is no longer allowed, we're again stuck in a "nobody is telling us anything" hole which CCP likes to dig.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Nolak Ataru
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#2802 - 2014-12-23 22:03:06 UTC
ashley Eoner wrote:
Look at the comments I quoted look at what has been said in this thread. There is no strawman when people are actually advocating it...
christ almighty you're about as bad as the anti-multibox nuts.


You directly quoted me as advocating banning mice and keyboards despite having never said that. That's what I was talking about.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#2803 - 2014-12-23 22:08:22 UTC
Rosewalker wrote:
That's right, it's not official. That means you can't paste a link to Twitter into a petition to protest a ban and have it count for anything. If you are looking at a ban defense, this won't help. But the objective should be to avoid getting banned in the first place. That means trying to figure out where the line that will get you banned is, not playing CYA if you cross the line. The tweets from CCP Random and the dev blog from CCP Grimmi help do that.

To my way of thinking, not getting banned is much preferable to having to file a petition. You may disagree.
The way I see it, I'll play EVE within the stated rules. If they want to go ahead and ban me fore something they haven't stated is a problem because they like their massive grey areas being super grey, then who really cares? It'd be their loss of subs and fanfest attendance, and there's plenty of other games out there. And for what? For them to maintain some half-assed attempt at declaring fuzzy rules while fearing the mystical rules-lawyers we hear so much about, yet never seem to see?

Personally, if I get caught up in their nonsensical ban waves I have no problems walking away. I'm sure many others are the same.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Drago Shouna
Doomheim
#2804 - 2014-12-23 22:10:52 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Rosewalker wrote:
That's right, it's not official. That means you can't paste a link to Twitter into a petition to protest a ban and have it count for anything. If you are looking at a ban defense, this won't help. But the objective should be to avoid getting banned in the first place. That means trying to figure out where the line that will get you banned is, not playing CYA if you cross the line. The tweets from CCP Random and the dev blog from CCP Grimmi help do that.

To my way of thinking, not getting banned is much preferable to having to file a petition. You may disagree.
The way I see it, I'll play EVE within the stated rules. If they want to go ahead and ban me fore something they haven't stated is a problem because they like their massive grey areas being super grey, then who really cares? It'd be their loss of subs and fanfest attendance, and there's plenty of other games out there. And for what? For them to maintain some half-assed attempt at declaring fuzzy rules while fearing the mystical rules-lawyers we hear so much about, yet never seem to see?

Personally, if I get caught up in their nonsensical ban waves I have no problems walking away. I'm sure many others are the same.



Looked in a mirror lately?

Solecist Project...." They refuse to play by the rules and laws of the game and use it as excuse ..." " They don't care about how you play as long as they get to play how they want."

Welcome to EVE.
Rosewalker
Khumaak Flying Circus
#2805 - 2014-12-23 22:15:36 UTC
Nolak Ataru wrote:

Rosewalker wrote:
But the objective should be to avoid getting banned in the first place. That means trying to figure out where the line that will get you banned is

Victim blaming aside, that's what we're TRYING to do here.... We want CCP to paint the line with neon orange paint and a paintbrush and say "This is the line", not use a pressure washer and spray it everywhere. You also dismiss the idea of Twitter being a reliable source and then attempt to use it to support your argument. If you bothered to read the Dev blog, it was pretty much "yep, we let the people speak without offering help, time to pack up and call it a day" with no expansion on the topic.


Perhaps Lucas sees something that I don't in trying to decypher the tea leaves. But as far as I can tell, you got your orange neon sign in the dev blog. Here's the key statement:

CCP Grimmi wrote:
Any use of macros to interact with the game world is prohibited by EULA now, and has always been.


"Any." The stuff concerning Twitter is just trying to add supporting evidence. You want to disregard it, fine. Doesn't hurt my feelings Smile

CCP thinks it's so plain that they don't need to amplify on it. The safe play is to not use any macros at all.

The Nosy Gamer - CCP Random: "hehe, falls under the category: nice try, but no. ;)"
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#2806 - 2014-12-23 22:21:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Lucas Kell
Rosewalker wrote:
Perhaps Lucas sees something that I don't in trying to decypher the tea leaves. But as far as I can tell, you got your orange neon sign in the dev blog. Here's the key statement:

CCP Grimmi wrote:
Any use of macros to interact with the game world is prohibited by EULA now, and has always been.


"Any." The stuff concerning Twitter is just trying to add supporting evidence. You want to disregard it, fine. Doesn't hurt my feelings Smile

CCP thinks it's so plain that they don't need to amplify on it. The safe play is to not use any macros at all.
Except there's a stark variance in the definition of "macro". Some people seem to think a global keybind is a macro. Strictly speaking anything I assign to my side mouse buttons is a macro, since it goes in the "macros" section of my gaming software, even if it only pushed one button. Not toe mention that if it always has been, then nothing has changed, so the thousands of people using an actual macro to enable all of their defensive modules must be fine to continue doing so, right? It's been petitioned before and been fine, so if macros are just as they have "always been" then clearly they must still be OK.... right?

And sure, the safe play is to just stop playing the game we've always played, throw away all of our gaming keyboards, stop using mac OS and Linux, or software like voice attack, as well as any forms of global keybinds. Anyone with a disability using shortcut software? They can leave too, since all of their stuff is macro controlled. Thank god Elite:Dangerous is out.

Edit: Oh and just for further clarity, am I allowed to use 4 fingers to press F1 to F4 in 1 press, or are multiple fingers banned too?

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Rosewalker
Khumaak Flying Circus
#2807 - 2014-12-23 22:33:58 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Rosewalker wrote:
Your using Teamspeak as the example is interesting. If you look in the Third Party Policies, Teamspeak is specifically mentioned as an app that technically violates the EULA, but CCP doesn't really care about. Or at least they won't enforce the EULA against its use.

Also, you might want to look at what CCP is saying about the more complex keybinds. CCP Random of Team Security was asked on Twitter by CSM member Steve Ronuken about turning all your hardeners with one hotkey on a mouse. He said that was the definition of a macro. And on Sunday, Mike Azariah said on EVE Radio that he was going to have to stop using his macro that turns on all his hardeners at the same time. So I don't think it's allowed anymore. I personally think that means we have to look at the wording in the EULA, ToS, etc, and forget about any rulings that are currently posted on the forums. CCP Random on Twitter basically stated that, and I think CCP Grimmi said it clearer than you can in a tweet that limits you to 140 characters max.
Then I can see a lot of people getting banned, because it's not mbeen made even remotely clear that things that used to be tolerated suddenly won't be.

Rosewalker wrote:
This actually isn't just a multiboxing question. I originally started asking around about this because someone asked me about a market application called Evernus. I've asked around and the fast copy option really looks sketchy and does just about the same as the ISBoxer round robin feature. I think the only difference is that Evernus performs multiple actions in the EVE client, while the ISBoxer round robin only does one, with all the other magic happening in ISBoxer. I don't know the final answer because CCP Foxfour is on vacation.
Yeah Evernus is just an amalgamation of the old eve-mentat tool and Elinor. Take a look at EvE-mentat, it's pretty much the same UI. Elinor's UI and function is exactly that of the "export item list, auto-copy price". Both of these tools have been allowed for years. If suddenly their function is no longer allowed, we're again stuck in a "nobody is telling us anything" hole which CCP likes to dig.


As much as I'd like to be wrong, I agree that a bunch of people will probably get banned for not realizing that CCP was taking away the exceptions that currently litter the forums. If I didn't, I wouldn't be making all these posts on the forums. I hate posting here.

The Nosy Gamer - CCP Random: "hehe, falls under the category: nice try, but no. ;)"
Rosewalker
Khumaak Flying Circus
#2808 - 2014-12-23 23:02:51 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Rosewalker wrote:
Perhaps Lucas sees something that I don't in trying to decypher the tea leaves. But as far as I can tell, you got your orange neon sign in the dev blog. Here's the key statement:

CCP Grimmi wrote:
Any use of macros to interact with the game world is prohibited by EULA now, and has always been.


"Any." The stuff concerning Twitter is just trying to add supporting evidence. You want to disregard it, fine. Doesn't hurt my feelings Smile

CCP thinks it's so plain that they don't need to amplify on it. The safe play is to not use any macros at all.
Except there's a stark variance in the definition of "macro". Some people seem to think a global keybind is a macro. Strictly speaking anything I assign to my side mouse buttons is a macro, since it goes in the "macros" section of my gaming software, even if it only pushed one button. Not toe mention that if it always has been, then nothing has changed, so the thousands of people using an actual macro to enable all of their defensive modules must be fine to continue doing so, right? It's been petitioned before and been fine, so if macros are just as they have "always been" then clearly they must still be OK.... right?

And sure, the safe play is to just stop playing the game we've always played, throw away all of our gaming keyboards, stop using mac OS and Linux, or software like voice attack, as well as any forms of global keybinds. Anyone with a disability using shortcut software? They can leave too, since all of their stuff is macro controlled. Thank god Elite:Dangerous is out.

Edit: Oh and just for further clarity, am I allowed to use 4 fingers to press F1 to F4 in 1 press, or are multiple fingers banned too?


Well, I can't help you. I don't use a gaming mouse or keyboard or anything voice activated. The only think I use is software KVM so I can switch between computers, but I had that for my normal use, not just gaming. Oh, and Google Docs, Trello, and Dotlan open in a browser open outside the game. I'm trying to figure out what CCP is planning to enforce. Because I'm so far behind the times, I'm probably safe.

I think the dev blog on Friday was a game changer, and there's only a week to go before the new enforcement takes effect. I could be totally wrong about this, and with the scope of the changes I think are coming, I actually hope I am. Because if I'm right, a lot of people are getting banned.

The Nosy Gamer - CCP Random: "hehe, falls under the category: nice try, but no. ;)"
Nolak Ataru
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#2809 - 2014-12-23 23:05:12 UTC
Rosewalker wrote:
As much as I'd like to be wrong, I agree that a bunch of people will probably get banned for not realizing that CCP was taking away the exceptions that currently litter the forums. If I didn't, I wouldn't be making all these posts on the forums. I hate posting here.


I wouldn't mind it if it wasn't for all the crybabies going "ban them all", the "hurr umadbro?" people, and the "them tears" people. Talking to you has probably been the most civil discussion I've had with someone on the other side of the fence, and I want to thank you for helping me find the weak spots with some of my arguments, and for (inadvertently, I'm sure) reminding me about other things that break or can break the EULA but are allowed.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#2810 - 2014-12-23 23:43:07 UTC
Rosewalker wrote:


Well, I can't help you. I don't use a gaming mouse or keyboard or anything voice activated. The only think I use is software KVM so I can switch between computers, but I had that for my normal use, not just gaming. Oh, and Google Docs, Trello, and Dotlan open in a browser open outside the game. I'm trying to figure out what CCP is planning to enforce. Because I'm so far behind the times, I'm probably safe.

I think the dev blog on Friday was a game changer, and there's only a week to go before the new enforcement takes effect. I could be totally wrong about this, and with the scope of the changes I think are coming, I actually hope I am. Because if I'm right, a lot of people are getting banned.

And there is the whole thing in a nutshell - "Because I am so far behind the times, I'm probably safe"

I don't have an expensive gaming keyboard but it does come with preset "macros" for window switching and other mundane tasks used in every day computing (outside of Eve).
I did not buy this keyboard because of Eve but was very happy to see it made my multiscreen, multiboxing easier.

From what I can see, there is no way to disable these functions in the keyboard. Am I going to get banned because Logitech added some features to their product?

NB; There is no point asking support as the response was to direct me to the EULA, which of course we all know, does not help.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Rosewalker
Khumaak Flying Circus
#2811 - 2014-12-23 23:50:12 UTC
Nolak Ataru wrote:
Rosewalker wrote:
As much as I'd like to be wrong, I agree that a bunch of people will probably get banned for not realizing that CCP was taking away the exceptions that currently litter the forums. If I didn't, I wouldn't be making all these posts on the forums. I hate posting here.


I wouldn't mind it if it wasn't for all the crybabies going "ban them all", the "hurr umadbro?" people, and the "them tears" people. Talking to you has probably been the most civil discussion I've had with someone on the other side of the fence, and I want to thank you for helping me find the weak spots with some of my arguments, and for (inadvertently, I'm sure) reminding me about other things that break or can break the EULA but are allowed.


At this point, the arguments don't really matter anymore. The relevant people at CCP have made their decisions and already are off celebrating the holidays. The customer support people just need to be given their new instructions on 1 January and away they go. Team Security has their algorithms set up and the first bans will probably go out next Friday.

I guess your arguments will be useful for any PR campaign that happens once the bans go out. If the loopholes I reminded you of are too egregious, we'll probably see another announcement at Fanfest about new rules. And if they turn out not to be loopholes but things CCP is looking to ban people for? Well, you're an adult, you know what you're doing.

Time for me to go back poking at the RMTers. Looks like they are doing a roaring business as people take advantage of only getting a warning for a first offense for buying dirty ISK until the end of the year. THOSE are the people I'm really interested in seeing banned and whose tears I want to post.

Fly safe.

o7

The Nosy Gamer - CCP Random: "hehe, falls under the category: nice try, but no. ;)"
Nico Fruehinsfeld
Glorious Astronauts Society
#2812 - 2014-12-24 00:04:08 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Drago Shouna wrote:
Rubbish...

The only reason these stupid sized fleets exist is because of outside programmes in the first place.

Take those programmes away and I honestly can't see anyone in their right mind spending half their game time logging every single one on manually, resizing and organizing every individual client manually then undocking, warping to a belt, scanning with every single ship and then targeting 20 or 30 individual rocks.

As for those that can only seem to rely on outside programmes....happy new year.

May the bans commence.
Well then you are obviously quite new. Before ISBoxer was as popular as it is, people used to run 20+ man fleets manually. And generally you didn't need to alter the client layout much and certainly not more than once (and it was possible to change one, then copy paste the setup to the others without a tool). It definitely takes longer to set up a decent ISBoxer with VFX setup than setting up your client window layouts.

On top of that, ISBoxer isn't being banned. You can still even broadcast to log in at the same time (seriously, check the OP).


Oh come on, no one cares if you log in all your toons together or not. Use what you want for that. The most important part is that you wont be allowed to interact broadcasted with several toons in the game world after the login.

And please stop the attempt to compare a broadcasting multiboxer with a trader who uses sheets, databases and stuff. You really don't get the difference? A trader like you describe him has effort to make his money. A broadcasting multiboxer with miners has to press a few buttons, to make a huge amount of ISK. Just locking a rock and starting the lasers on and on and on.

And why the discussion about the server ticks and stuff? I bet it's totally easy to detect a broadcasting multiboxer without that information. A pure multiboxer without broadcasting tools has to select the client window and to click into the window. Maybe ISBoxer can trigger the click event but i bet it can't trigger the focus event, which occurs when you manually click on a window and it therefore get the focus on screen.


Stop broadcasting your toons after login!


Cheers
Nico
Nolak Ataru
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#2813 - 2014-12-24 00:55:43 UTC
Nico Fruehinsfeld wrote:
Oh come on, no one cares if you log in all your toons together or not. Use what you want for that. The most important part is that you wont be allowed to interact broadcasted with several toons in the game world after the login.

And please stop the attempt to compare a broadcasting multiboxer with a trader who uses sheets, databases and stuff. You really don't get the difference? A trader like you describe him has effort to make his money. A broadcasting multiboxer with miners has to press a few buttons, to make a huge amount of ISK. Just locking a rock and starting the lasers on and on and on.

And why the discussion about the server ticks and stuff? I bet it's totally easy to detect a broadcasting multiboxer without that information. A pure multiboxer without broadcasting tools has to select the client window and to click into the window. Maybe ISBoxer can trigger the click event but i bet it can't trigger the focus event, which occurs when you manually click on a window and it therefore get the focus on screen.


I used it as an example, oh thick-skulled one. Straight broadcasting is banned. Round Robin broadcasting is not banned. ISBoxer is not banned. VFX is not banned. FPS limiting and cpu control is not banned. It is dishonest to post "ISBoxer is banned" when a single part of it is, and it only highlights the fact that you know nothing about what you're talking about, didn't read the OP entirely, and thus can safely be ignored.

I'll stop comparing multiboxers to traders when everyone else stops comparing multiboxers to botters. A trader doesn't necessarily need spreadsheets and databases. He can just buy low and sell high on a single item (PLEX, for example, or marauder hulls, or deadspace modules...) and he'll make a fortune. And you are completely out of your mind if you think that mining is one of the better sources of income for a multiboxer. A miner has to coordinate his boosts, coordinate his mining lasers such that they do not overlap and cause reduced income, must grind standings in order to refine with minimal costs (or alternatively pay continuous upkeep for a POS), must haul it somewhere to sell, or must make connections with other players and form agreements with industrial characters, or must train an industrial character to build the stuff, must invest in blueprints, must continuously invest in mining lasers, must be constantly checking local for CODE, must check D-scan for Talos, Tornados, and Catalysts, etc etc.

We started discussing the server ticks and the client because we were discussing false positives. As stated earlier, Round Robin (and now that I think about it, scrolling the mousewheel down bound to F1 while moving across a series of VideoFX windows), and changing your Windows Keyboard settings so that there is no delay from pressing a key to continuous transmission of said key would create false positive flags and false bans. To quote William Blackstone, "It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer". I realize that that was a criminal case, but the principle is the same.

As explained to me by my regional manager, it's better to hand out free Slushies and drinks to people who *may* be scamming and say they "dropped" their drink, than to deny someone because of the bad publicity, bad press, and the fact that people talk with friends and family, and will say "That place is so mean. I dropped my Slushie and they wouldn't give me a replacement."

If you want to outright ban ISBoxer, say so. Don't attempt to hide behind a supposed moral high ground.
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#2814 - 2014-12-24 01:02:56 UTC
Nico Fruehinsfeld wrote:


Oh come on, no one cares if you log in all your toons together or not. Use what you want for that. The most important part is that you wont be allowed to interact broadcasted with several toons in the game world after the login.

Tactically inuduced tidi or logoff camp anyone?

Nico Fruehinsfeld wrote:

And please stop the attempt to compare a broadcasting multiboxer with a trader who uses sheets, databases and stuff. You really don't get the difference? A trader like you describe him has effort to make his money. A broadcasting multiboxer with miners has to press a few buttons, to make a huge amount of ISK. Just locking a rock and starting the lasers on and on and on.

He is a trader, and (presumably) a boxer, so he would presumably know the relative effort levels.

Nico Fruehinsfeld wrote:

And why the discussion about the server ticks and stuff? I bet it's totally easy to detect a broadcasting multiboxer without that information. A pure multiboxer without broadcasting tools has to select the client window and to click into the window. Maybe ISBoxer can trigger the click event but i bet it can't trigger the focus event, which occurs when you manually click on a window and it therefore get the focus on screen.


Stop broadcasting your toons after login!


Cheers
Nico


And if you use multiple clients with perfectly synched UI and no software management of windows or other features of software assisted multiboxing, you can still get 5-10 toons to act in the same tick, and thus visually identically, if you have sufficiently good hardware and a high twitch rate on your boogerhook, and good repetition rates on your bangswitch.

In other words, if it only looks at which second commands came in, I can fool it with no software assist.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
ashley Eoner
#2815 - 2014-12-24 03:16:49 UTC  |  Edited by: ashley Eoner
Nolak Ataru wrote:
ashley Eoner wrote:
Look at the comments I quoted look at what has been said in this thread. There is no strawman when people are actually advocating it...
christ almighty you're about as bad as the anti-multibox nuts.


You directly quoted me as advocating banning mice and keyboards despite having never said that. That's what I was talking about.

My apologies for not cutting you out of the quote box successfully. It gets kind of silly at times.

Would you like me to edit it or just leave it?

Lucas Kell wrote:
Rosewalker wrote:
That's right, it's not official. That means you can't paste a link to Twitter into a petition to protest a ban and have it count for anything. If you are looking at a ban defense, this won't help. But the objective should be to avoid getting banned in the first place. That means trying to figure out where the line that will get you banned is, not playing CYA if you cross the line. The tweets from CCP Random and the dev blog from CCP Grimmi help do that.

To my way of thinking, not getting banned is much preferable to having to file a petition. You may disagree.
The way I see it, I'll play EVE within the stated rules. If they want to go ahead and ban me fore something they haven't stated is a problem because they like their massive grey areas being super grey, then who really cares? It'd be their loss of subs and fanfest attendance, and there's plenty of other games out there. And for what? For them to maintain some half-assed attempt at declaring fuzzy rules while fearing the mystical rules-lawyers we hear so much about, yet never seem to see?

Personally, if I get caught up in their nonsensical ban waves I have no problems walking away. I'm sure many others are the same.

I know I would most likely walk away for good after having played this game off and on again since beta.

I've already had a cold restart some years ago and I have no interest in doing it again.



I too would like to thank Rosewalker for his participation in this thread.


Personally I'm letting my accounts expire in January as I have no interest in being swept up in the inevitably overkill banfest that will occur. I might come back in February but that depends on how things are at that time.




For multiboxing I use multiple machines and several monitors/keyboards/mice. I'm not at the level of that on fellow with his 12 boxes but I can control multiple accounts at the exact same time without any software other then the normal stuff. I never did make a fancy isboxer setup so I was spared some of the pain. I only used it with my dps and even then only the repeater with a few videofx. I actually have a fancier setup now with the post January fleet but it's still limited to the dps.
Nolak Ataru
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#2816 - 2014-12-24 03:19:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Nolak Ataru
Just to clarify, and as a disclaimer, I dabble in trading some faction modules (probably only earn 100m a week or so, haven't really sat down and looked), but not to the extent that a friend does (estimated value / month: 100B-1T. He was drunk, and swallowed his mic on Skype). He doesn't spend too long on updating buy/sell orders, or he has multiple toons doing it as we aren't interrupted very much by it. I don't multibox mine myself, mostly sticking to incursions and ganks (dps support, I didn't do the hard work myself), but I did take the opportunity, about 5 pages back or so, to sit down with an ISBox miner and have him walk me through what he does in a belt. Much more complicated than incursions, even when I did my own VG fleets.

e:: Ash, it's fine. I misunderstood and retract my statements.
Nico Fruehinsfeld
Glorious Astronauts Society
#2817 - 2014-12-24 09:08:03 UTC
Nolak Ataru wrote:
Nico Fruehinsfeld wrote:
Oh come on, no one cares if you log in all your toons together or not. Use what you want for that. The most important part is that you wont be allowed to interact broadcasted with several toons in the game world after the login.

And please stop the attempt to compare a broadcasting multiboxer with a trader who uses sheets, databases and stuff. You really don't get the difference? A trader like you describe him has effort to make his money. A broadcasting multiboxer with miners has to press a few buttons, to make a huge amount of ISK. Just locking a rock and starting the lasers on and on and on.

And why the discussion about the server ticks and stuff? I bet it's totally easy to detect a broadcasting multiboxer without that information. A pure multiboxer without broadcasting tools has to select the client window and to click into the window. Maybe ISBoxer can trigger the click event but i bet it can't trigger the focus event, which occurs when you manually click on a window and it therefore get the focus on screen.


I used it as an example, oh thick-skulled one. Straight broadcasting is banned. Round Robin broadcasting is not banned. ISBoxer is not banned. VFX is not banned. FPS limiting and cpu control is not banned. It is dishonest to post "ISBoxer is banned" when a single part of it is, and it only highlights the fact that you know nothing about what you're talking about, didn't read the OP entirely, and thus can safely be ignored.

I'll stop comparing multiboxers to traders when everyone else stops comparing multiboxers to botters. A trader doesn't necessarily need spreadsheets and databases. He can just buy low and sell high on a single item (PLEX, for example, or marauder hulls, or deadspace modules...) and he'll make a fortune. And you are completely out of your mind if you think that mining is one of the better sources of income for a multiboxer. A miner has to coordinate his boosts, coordinate his mining lasers such that they do not overlap and cause reduced income, must grind standings in order to refine with minimal costs (or alternatively pay continuous upkeep for a POS), must haul it somewhere to sell, or must make connections with other players and form agreements with industrial characters, or must train an industrial character to build the stuff, must invest in blueprints, must continuously invest in mining lasers, must be constantly checking local for CODE, must check D-scan for Talos, Tornados, and Catalysts, etc etc.

We started discussing the server ticks and the client because we were discussing false positives. As stated earlier, Round Robin (and now that I think about it, scrolling the mousewheel down bound to F1 while moving across a series of VideoFX windows), and changing your Windows Keyboard settings so that there is no delay from pressing a key to continuous transmission of said key would create false positive flags and false bans. To quote William Blackstone, "It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer". I realize that that was a criminal case, but the principle is the same.

As explained to me by my regional manager, it's better to hand out free Slushies and drinks to people who *may* be scamming and say they "dropped" their drink, than to deny someone because of the bad publicity, bad press, and the fact that people talk with friends and family, and will say "That place is so mean. I dropped my Slushie and they wouldn't give me a replacement."

If you want to outright ban ISBoxer, say so. Don't attempt to hide behind a supposed moral high ground.



Ah, hi there. I was wondering where you get your likes from. Now it is clear - a second toon :)

What do you think could further disturbing me after the fallowing took effect?
Quote:

Input Broadcasting and Input Multiplexing of actions with consequences in the EVE universe, are prohibited and will be policed in the same manner as Input Automation.

This includes, but isn’t limited to:

• Activation and control of ships and modules
• Navigation and movement within the EVE universe
• Movement of assets and items within the EVE universe
• Interaction with other characters

If ISBoxer would become as usefull as a screensaver after the new rules takes effect, you still would say "nom nom nom, ISBoxer is still allowed to use". The difference is that no one cares then if you use it as a screensaver or not.

The comparison between botting and input automation is closer than the comparison between a trader and input automation. I would love to say it again if you still don't get the message!


Cheers
Nico
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#2818 - 2014-12-24 09:48:55 UTC
Nico Fruehinsfeld wrote:
Ah, hi there. I was wondering where you get your likes from. Now it is clear - a second toon :)
I assume you are directing that at me because he responded to your reply to me?
lol, swing and miss buddy.

Nico Fruehinsfeld wrote:
If ISBoxer would become as usefull as a screensaver after the new rules takes effect, you still would say "nom nom nom, ISBoxer is still allowed to use". The difference is that no one cares then if you use it as a screensaver or not.
Except it's not. It's still going to be viable for multiboxing after the change. You think it's not because you have no idea how it actually works, but most multiboxers will still be playing with the exact same amount of accounts after this change.

Nico Fruehinsfeld wrote:
The comparison between botting and input automation is closer than the comparison between a trader and input automation. I would love to say it again if you still don't get the message!
Of course it is. Input automation *is* botting. But this isn't banning automation, that's already banned. This is banning broadcasting which is totally different.

And ISBoxer is nothing like botting. Botting is fully automated, requires no input, occurs on absolutely massive scales and is generally used for RMT. ISBoxer is just a way to simplify multibox setups for hardcore players. The thing is, people cry about how much isk an ISBoxer makes, yet nobody cries when traders earn considerably more than them, which most good traders do. I trade for maybe an hour a week and make more than a multibox miner could hope to.

As for the comparison between tools, this is because people keep saying "waah, the EULA says if it makes it faster to gain stuff then it's not allowed!". Trading tool *definitely* make it *far far far* quicker to earn more. If I had to look at the markets manually, it would take me a lot of time to do that, time I wouldn't be spending doing other things. Instead, I get home and my PC pops up a list of items to look at, a list of prices to update and a list of stock to shift. So if the thing that makes a tool bannable is it's ability to help you make isk faster than you could using "normal gameplay", then trading tools are definitely in that category.

At the end of the day what it boils down to is traders you don;t see, so you don't care. Multiboxers you do see, and it makes you envious so you cry endlessly about how unfair it is. I can't wait for you too see how little this change actually affects that and see the next trail of tears spewing out of your face about how unfair it is.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Nico Fruehinsfeld
Glorious Astronauts Society
#2819 - 2014-12-24 10:19:50 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:

At the end of the day what it boils down to is traders you don;t see, so you don't care. Multiboxers you do see, and it makes you envious so you cry endlessly about how unfair it is. I can't wait for you too see how little this change actually affects that and see the next trail of tears spewing out of your face about how unfair it is.


Hi Lucas,

Don't become too excited about my tears, because I don't care if you use it like CCP Falcon described it:

Quote:
Examples of allowed Input Broadcasting and Input Multiplexing are actions taken that do not have an impact on the EVE universe and are carried out for convenience:

• EVE Online client settings
• Window positions and arrangements (of the EVE Online client in your operating system’s desktop environment)
• The login process


What are the features of ISBoxer you say they will make me cry? Please tell me!


Cheers
Nico
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#2820 - 2014-12-24 10:47:35 UTC
Nico Fruehinsfeld wrote:
Quote:
Examples of allowed Input Broadcasting and Input Multiplexing are actions taken that do not have an impact on the EVE universe and are carried out for convenience:

• EVE Online client settings
• Window positions and arrangements (of the EVE Online client in your operating system’s desktop environment)
• The login process


What are the features of ISBoxer you say they will make me cry? Please tell me!
VideoFX and round robin. Neither of which are banned because neither fall under those new rules. Both however make it trivial to control just as many characters as broadcasting. You see, if you actually know how ISBoxing worked, you'd realise that the vast majority of it use VideoFX, not broadcasting.

Take a typical ISBoxed miner:

* Setup phase
- Log in all accounts (broadcast, still allowed)
- Fleet invite all accounts (single client)
- Accept fleet invite (broadcast, now banned, can use Round robin instead)
- Undock (broadcast, now banned, can use Round robin instead, can be replaced by logging miners off in space)
- Warp to target belt/anom (fleet warp, still allowed)
- Target initial set of rocks (broadcast, now banned, still relatively easy with VideoFX)
- Engage lasers (broadcast, now banned, can use Round robin instead)

* Mining Phase - this is where most time is spent
- Targeting new rocks (VideoFX, still allowed)
- Cycling Lasers (VideoFX, still allowed)
- Drag ore to Orca (Broadcast, now banned, still relatively easy with VideoFX)
- Drag ore to hauler (single client)
- Haul to station and come back (single client)

* Pack up phase
- Dock all ships (broadcast, now banned, can be replaced by logging miners off in space)

You see, not much is really going to change. The part you spend most of your time doing is the "Mining phase", and if someone was using broadcast to do the whole of that part, they were doing it wrong, since different rocks have different amounts in them, so miners won't be in sync unless you are over harvesting every rock.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.