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Update regarding Multiboxing and input automation

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Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
#2561 - 2014-12-14 13:13:04 UTC
More players, more chance of AWOXing and spais...

I've yet to hear of an ISboxer giving away intel of his movements to anyone unwillingly. Perhaps I don't hang around in the right asylums.

but what would I know, I'm just a salvager
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#2562 - 2014-12-14 13:18:33 UTC
Nico Fruehinsfeld wrote:
Sure, there is a difference! A fleet of many players is a cool thing and a huge part of the spirit of EVE in my eyes. Every fleet member can make a mistake or can do something more than right to let an operation succeed or not. That isn't the fact if one player controls everything in that fleet broadcasted.
The spirit of EVE is multiboxing. It's pretty much a game design goal. And it really makes no difference to most rational people how many actual players there are behind accounts. And sure, a person can make a mistake, but quite often that doesn't make much difference as other fill in the void. If a broadcaster makes a mistake however, every singe one of his alts makes that mistake too.

Nico Fruehinsfeld wrote:
It's just the multiplication of effect without any penalty. That's unfair!
This is the crux of it. It has nothing to do with gameplay or the economy or efficiency, or any of that. It's a purely emotional response because to you it's unfair that a player can do something you aren't willing to do. You want everyone to have to play your way, so you don't get left behind.

Nico Fruehinsfeld wrote:
I could join CODE or the Goons to revenge the spy way or I could join them because I like their work.
But broatcasting players are mostly in a seperated world where other players can't join their actions. Other players are just disturbing in their eyes. But on the other side they are making lots of ISK with non-broadcasters.
But that;s not "broadcasters" that's all multiboxers. Even a manual multiboxer won't let you join their group of alts. And trust me, a well played manual multiboxer can make as much if not slightly more isk than many broadcasters as you have better granular control over your clients.

Nico Fruehinsfeld wrote:
It's pure destructive play-behavior in a MMO like EVE! They have a huge impact on the game in therms of item prices, eradicated sites, belts and so on, but they dont play with us but alone or against us with terrific power.
No they don't. There's absolutely no evidence to suggest they have this profound impact on the economy. That's purely guesswork from angry players like yourself. The fact is, character for character, they have no more impact than the same number of solo controlled characters, and there really aren't as many broadcast multiboxers as you think there are. You'll realise that when January rolls round and you see how many players are still flying whole fleets.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Nico Fruehinsfeld
Glorious Astronauts Society
#2563 - 2014-12-14 13:59:58 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
The spirit of EVE is multiboxing. It's pretty much a game design goal. And it really makes no difference to most rational people how many actual players there are behind accounts. And sure, a person can make a mistake, but quite often that doesn't make much difference as other fill in the void. If a broadcaster makes a mistake however, every singe one of his alts makes that mistake too.


A bad broadcaster has a chance of 50% to press the right buttons in the right order. There is no void to fill, no group dynamic.
It's like playing EVE as a single player game, what sounds ok, but it isn't ok because of the huge impact on other players.
And yeah, I like multiboxing too. I feel unchallenged when I control just one toon. I would lose that challange with a broadcast tool.

Lucas Kell wrote:
This is the crux of it. It has nothing to do with gameplay or the economy or efficiency, or any of that. It's a purely emotional response because to you it's unfair that a player can do something you aren't willing to do. You want everyone to have to play your way, so you don't get left behind.


No, I don't feel left behind. I could do the same or blow them all up to solve that problem emotional.
But that's not a solution because it's like an arms race. The longer such an arms race takes the more toons will be controled by one player. That's a terrible game experience for e.g. new players and a reason to quit with EVE as soon as you noticed the arms race. Therefore we need rules to stop that race and to reduce the account count per player to a controllable number (like being limited by screen count).

Lucas Kell wrote:
But that;s not "broadcasters" that's all multiboxers. Even a manual multiboxer won't let you join their group of alts. And trust me, a well played manual multiboxer can make as much if not slightly more isk than many broadcasters as you have better granular control over your clients.


Yes, ISK/Client but much more in total, what causes the huge impact to other players.

Lucas Kell wrote:
No they don't. There's absolutely no evidence to suggest they have this profound impact on the economy. That's purely guesswork from angry players like yourself. The fact is, character for character, they have no more impact than the same number of solo controlled characters, and there really aren't as many broadcast multiboxers as you think there are. You'll realise that when January rolls round and you see how many players are still flying whole fleets.


For me there is a difference between e.g. 50 toons controlled by one person or by 50 persons. Imagine 50 toons pulling all into one direction to reach one goal. No controversial, no mistakes and a huge amount of ISK. Thats much more organized than the most corps. You mean that dont cause any impact? I think we wont come together in that point.


Cheers
Nico
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#2564 - 2014-12-14 14:39:19 UTC
Nico Fruehinsfeld wrote:
A bad broadcaster has a chance of 50% to press the right buttons in the right order. There is no void to fill, no group dynamic.
It's like playing EVE as a single player game, what sounds ok, but it isn't ok because of the huge impact on other players.
And yeah, I like multiboxing too. I feel unchallenged when I control just one toon. I would lose that challange with a broadcast tool.
Right, but if a broadcaster makes a mistake, it;s game over. If a guy in a group makes a mistake, it's generally no big deal.

And I don't feel challenged running 20 accounts, even manually. Different people like different things. Some of these top level ISBoxers put in far more effort than you can imagine, because it's next level challenges.

Nico Fruehinsfeld wrote:
No, I don't feel left behind. I could do the same or blow them all up to solve that problem emotional.
But that's not a solution because it's like an arms race. The longer such an arms race takes the more toons will be controled by one player. That's a terrible game experience for e.g. new players and a reason to quit with EVE as soon as you noticed the arms race. Therefore we need rules to stop that race and to reduce the account count per player to a controllable number (like being limited by screen count).
I don;t believe many new players quit because there's a multiboxer about. I don't suppose most new players even notice. New players quit because the gameplay is boring. The thing is though, ISK doesn't mean much in this game, so who really cares if someone wants to multibox it? That said, a high level trader makes considerably more ISK than a multiboxer could dream of. Why aren't traders coming under fire for being too far ahead of newbies?

Nico Fruehinsfeld wrote:
Yes, ISK/Client but much more in total, what causes the huge impact to other players.
Why does it? Why does 10 characters controlled by one guy make any more difference than 10 individually controlled characters? There's no difference whatsoever to their impact on other players.

Nico Fruehinsfeld wrote:
For me there is a difference between e.g. 50 toons controlled by one person or by 50 persons. Imagine 50 toons pulling all into one direction to reach one goal. No controversial, no mistakes and a huge amount of ISK. Thats much more organized than the most corps. You mean that dont cause any impact? I think we wont come together in that point.
No, it certainly doesn't make any more impact. If it did, the top tier players would all be multiboxers, but none of them are. The only difference between individual characters and multiboxers is your own feelings. If you didn't know they were multiboxers, you simply wouldn't care. That in itself proves there is no impact. If there was an impact, your reaction would be to that impact, not to the idea of multiboxers.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Nico Fruehinsfeld
Glorious Astronauts Society
#2565 - 2014-12-14 15:10:01 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Nico Fruehinsfeld wrote:
A bad broadcaster has a chance of 50% to press the right buttons in the right order. There is no void to fill, no group dynamic.
It's like playing EVE as a single player game, what sounds ok, but it isn't ok because of the huge impact on other players.
And yeah, I like multiboxing too. I feel unchallenged when I control just one toon. I would lose that challange with a broadcast tool.
Right, but if a broadcaster makes a mistake, it;s game over. If a guy in a group makes a mistake, it's generally no big deal.

And I don't feel challenged running 20 accounts, even manually. Different people like different things. Some of these top level ISBoxers put in far more effort than you can imagine, because it's next level challenges.

Nico Fruehinsfeld wrote:
No, I don't feel left behind. I could do the same or blow them all up to solve that problem emotional.
But that's not a solution because it's like an arms race. The longer such an arms race takes the more toons will be controled by one player. That's a terrible game experience for e.g. new players and a reason to quit with EVE as soon as you noticed the arms race. Therefore we need rules to stop that race and to reduce the account count per player to a controllable number (like being limited by screen count).
I don;t believe many new players quit because there's a multiboxer about. I don't suppose most new players even notice. New players quit because the gameplay is boring. The thing is though, ISK doesn't mean much in this game, so who really cares if someone wants to multibox it? That said, a high level trader makes considerably more ISK than a multiboxer could dream of. Why aren't traders coming under fire for being too far ahead of newbies?

Nico Fruehinsfeld wrote:
Yes, ISK/Client but much more in total, what causes the huge impact to other players.
Why does it? Why does 10 characters controlled by one guy make any more difference than 10 individually controlled characters? There's no difference whatsoever to their impact on other players.

Nico Fruehinsfeld wrote:
For me there is a difference between e.g. 50 toons controlled by one person or by 50 persons. Imagine 50 toons pulling all into one direction to reach one goal. No controversial, no mistakes and a huge amount of ISK. Thats much more organized than the most corps. You mean that dont cause any impact? I think we wont come together in that point.
No, it certainly doesn't make any more impact. If it did, the top tier players would all be multiboxers, but none of them are. The only difference between individual characters and multiboxers is your own feelings. If you didn't know they were multiboxers, you simply wouldn't care. That in itself proves there is no impact. If there was an impact, your reaction would be to that impact, not to the idea of multiboxers.



You can say what you want. The arms race has to be stopped and im glad that CCP has the same opinion. It's good for your and my health and for all other players, especially new ones. As soon as I noticed I can do nothing with one toon compared e.g. to a 20 toon ice mining fleet controlled by one person, I had to decide to quit the game or to join the arms race. I dont know how many players decided to quit, but im sad about all of them.

I like to see different faces and not "Ice Miner 1", "Ice Miner 2", "..." and so on in the local chat. Who want to see that? The only thing you think is "Well, he want to be 20 times stronger than I ever can be... thats the game i want to play :/".

Not everyone wants to play eve like having a job in here. It's a cool world but still a virtual game. If I see no chance to become better than other guys I will quit, because the effort to control so many toons is to high for me and has nothing to do with becoming better. Just numbers count, and when you have 10 toons I'll have 11, so I'm better than you. That sounds like it is - stupid.
Thats not a challnge. It's more like: "Lets see who will be frustrated first!"

Is a frustration based gameplay what you want? It isn't what I want and it seems like I'm not alone with this opinion.


Cheers
Nico
Delt0r Garsk
Shits N Giggles
#2566 - 2014-12-14 15:22:29 UTC
If you think there was an arms race to have the most accounts, you are wrong. Really put up or shut up. Show us these fleets of 50+ ships roaming around winning eve? Hell even 20+. I see the odd 3-5 ships (including scout+links), and when i see they are probably multiboxing, I deliberately PvP in a way to make it hard to deal with (spread points/webs/ewar).

If you think these changes will reduce multiboxing or isboxing much at all your also wrong.

AKA the scientist.

Death and Glory!

Well fun is also good.
Nico Fruehinsfeld
Glorious Astronauts Society
#2567 - 2014-12-14 15:28:21 UTC
Delt0r Garsk wrote:
If you think there was an arms race to have the most accounts, you are wrong. Really put up or shut up. Show us these fleets of 50+ ships roaming around winning eve? Hell even 20+. I see the odd 3-5 ships (including scout+links), and when i see they are probably multiboxing, I deliberately PvP in a way to make it hard to deal with (spread points/webs/ewar).

If you think these changes will reduce multiboxing or isboxing much at all your also wrong.



Maybe, but we'll have the right to report broadcasters when we detect them. Hopefully many guys will take the chance to do it.
For a more fair game.


Cheers
Nico
Delt0r Garsk
Shits N Giggles
#2568 - 2014-12-14 15:34:19 UTC
You know the server ticks are 1 second right. There is literally no difference in a game play mechanic perspective between perfect synchronization and and all hitting f1 in about 1/2 a second. (1/2 a second is a long time. )

AKA the scientist.

Death and Glory!

Well fun is also good.
Nico Fruehinsfeld
Glorious Astronauts Society
#2569 - 2014-12-14 15:47:18 UTC
Delt0r Garsk wrote:
You know the server ticks are 1 second right. There is literally no difference in a game play mechanic perspective between perfect synchronization and and all hitting f1 in about 1/2 a second. (1/2 a second is a long time. )



Many of them have similar character names. Anyways, I dont know much about the technical possibilities, but broadcasting multiplexers should have the same IP address? Maybe there is also an individual signature on all client installations. I dont know how CCP will find them but I'm sure they will find many. I'm pleased even if they find just 50% of the active broadcasters, after it is forbidden to be one. I hope most of them will stop broadcasting after it is forbidden.


lol, it sounds like a witch-hunt xD but it isn't yet!


Cheers
Nico
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#2570 - 2014-12-14 15:55:02 UTC
Nico Fruehinsfeld wrote:
You can say what you want. The arms race has to be stopped and im glad that CCP has the same opinion. It's good for your and my health and for all other players, especially new ones. As soon as I noticed I can do nothing with one toon compared e.g. to a 20 toon ice mining fleet controlled by one person, I had to decide to quit the game or to join the arms race. I dont know how many players decided to quit, but im sad about all of them.
Even after this change, multiboxing will still be better than not multiboxing. That will never change.

Nico Fruehinsfeld wrote:
Not everyone wants to play eve like having a job in here. It's a cool world but still a virtual game. If I see no chance to become better than other guys I will quit, because the effort to control so many toons is to high for me and has nothing to do with becoming better. Just numbers count, and when you have 10 toons I'll have 11, so I'm better than you. That sounds like it is - stupid.
Thats not a challnge. It's more like: "Lets see who will be frustrated first!"

Is a frustration based gameplay what you want? It isn't what I want and it seems like I'm not alone with this opinion.
Whatever you do, there will always be someone willing to go further than you are and beat you. You have no chance of becoming better because you want the game changed to fit you rather than you changing to fit the game. Even then though, we're only talking a single metric of comparison. Mutliboxers aren't the best at everything in the game, not even making isk (traders lead that).

And even then, after all of this people will still be able to use ISBoxer thanks to VideoFX and round robin, so what's really going to change?

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#2571 - 2014-12-14 15:57:35 UTC
Nico Fruehinsfeld wrote:
Many of them have similar character names. Anyways, I dont know much about the technical possibilities, but broadcasting multiplexers should have the same IP address? Maybe there is also an individual signature on all client installations. I dont know how CCP will find them but I'm sure they will find many. I'm pleased even if they find just 50% of the active broadcasters, after it is forbidden to be one. I hope most of them will stop broadcasting after it is forbidden.

lol, it sounds like a witch-hunt xD but it isn't yet!
Many people will have similar names, even if they don't broadcast. You will still be able to control 20, 30 even 40 miners without broadcasting, so you'll be reporting people who aren't broadcasting. You realise that falsely reporting players is also against the EULA, right?

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Paula Trevaline
Aberrance
#2572 - 2014-12-14 16:13:29 UTC
Nolak Ataru wrote:
[quote=Paula Trevaline]
Then again, it's CCP.....

Ya. I've heard and seen it all over the decade+. A spade is a spade and histories can't be ignored. This is why I don't fear the change, but I fear the gray area it creates... quantification through inference resulting in ban.

I'd rather move forward being positive, but I also don't want to read 50000 forum posts. As per the first post, they are still 30 day banning (stealing 10-15$ of your money across every account involved) on a first offense on something they can't truly say with 100% certainty. Given the ambiguous quantification of the policy violation, it seems the money might be better spent at the casino.
Nico Fruehinsfeld
Glorious Astronauts Society
#2573 - 2014-12-14 16:16:17 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Nico Fruehinsfeld wrote:
You can say what you want. The arms race has to be stopped and im glad that CCP has the same opinion. It's good for your and my health and for all other players, especially new ones. As soon as I noticed I can do nothing with one toon compared e.g. to a 20 toon ice mining fleet controlled by one person, I had to decide to quit the game or to join the arms race. I dont know how many players decided to quit, but im sad about all of them.
Even after this change, multiboxing will still be better than not multiboxing. That will never change.

Nico Fruehinsfeld wrote:
Not everyone wants to play eve like having a job in here. It's a cool world but still a virtual game. If I see no chance to become better than other guys I will quit, because the effort to control so many toons is to high for me and has nothing to do with becoming better. Just numbers count, and when you have 10 toons I'll have 11, so I'm better than you. That sounds like it is - stupid.
Thats not a challnge. It's more like: "Lets see who will be frustrated first!"

Is a frustration based gameplay what you want? It isn't what I want and it seems like I'm not alone with this opinion.
Whatever you do, there will always be someone willing to go further than you are and beat you. You have no chance of becoming better because you want the game changed to fit you rather than you changing to fit the game. Even then though, we're only talking a single metric of comparison. Mutliboxers aren't the best at everything in the game, not even making isk (traders lead that).

And even then, after all of this people will still be able to use ISBoxer thanks to VideoFX and round robin, so what's really going to change?


Hey, it's not my change, it's a decision of CCP and I agree with it. It's a rule to make the live in EVE better than before. At the first look not for everyone but for the most of us. Thats noble.

It's also a cut into my options. I don't have the chance to try ISBoxer or similar tools after the 01.01.2015 without having the risk of trouble. But thats ok because it's good for single toon players, new players, also healthy for actual broadcasting multiboxers and therefore good for EVE.


Cheers
Nico
Nico Fruehinsfeld
Glorious Astronauts Society
#2574 - 2014-12-14 16:18:34 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Nico Fruehinsfeld wrote:
Many of them have similar character names. Anyways, I dont know much about the technical possibilities, but broadcasting multiplexers should have the same IP address? Maybe there is also an individual signature on all client installations. I dont know how CCP will find them but I'm sure they will find many. I'm pleased even if they find just 50% of the active broadcasters, after it is forbidden to be one. I hope most of them will stop broadcasting after it is forbidden.

lol, it sounds like a witch-hunt xD but it isn't yet!
Many people will have similar names, even if they don't broadcast. You will still be able to control 20, 30 even 40 miners without broadcasting, so you'll be reporting people who aren't broadcasting. You realise that falsely reporting players is also against the EULA, right?



Belive me, I see the difference between a broadcaster and a usual multiboxer. Thats an easy task for me. Just shout if you need help to spot one.


Cheers
Nico
Nolak Ataru
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#2575 - 2014-12-14 17:49:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Nolak Ataru
Nico Fruehinsfeld wrote:
Belive me, I see the difference between a broadcaster and a usual multiboxer. Thats an easy task for me. Just shout if you need help to spot one.
Cheers
Nico


I refuse to believe that you can tell the difference between someone as used to boxing like Lax or MiRai using lots of VFX and round-robin, and a simple broadcaster. As evidence, I give you all the idiots in this thread who say "ban the botters" because they can't make a distinction themselves. I used to run a setup of Rattlesnakes + Loki for fun. No broadcasting needed if I wanted to. A boxer can do 75000 raw alpha with 2 gardes and 4 DDAs in a single server tick with drone assist.

Also, Round Robin Broadcasting + F1 bound to scroll wheel down. GG, I just broadcasted F1 to every client in a matter of a few milliseconds and they'll fire on the same server tick if done correctly.

e: I should mention said boxer would have to have 25 Rattlesnakes and a webbing alt, but I'd be tempted to do it just for the tears that it would produce because of all the "hurrdurr isboxer is banned" people.
Battle Cube
Cube Collective
#2576 - 2014-12-14 18:00:50 UTC
Rain6637 wrote:
Yes, brosef, I recall your NEO performance. Everyone does. I came in here only because I recognized your name.

I'm surprised it took you this long to find a reason to quit EVE.

I've been meaning to ask you, why spend all that ISK on NEO when you KNOW how it's going to turn out, bringing nightmares, when your opponents would also figure out you'd bring nightmares (or other incursion ships)?


Because i found multiboxing to be a fun way to be part of the eve community, I'll say first i dont pvp much and i Never multibox PVP, i have no practice, i just thought it was hilarious, and everyone got a kick out of it so im glad of that :) (And why bring incursion ships? to represent! XD)

And multiboxing in incursions has been fun, because ive been able to bring the FC's choice of 10 machs 10nightmares or 10 vindis, in the fleets i fly with it is appreciated because sites get done faster and no one loses isk (im not taking anyones spots).

yeah i could still multibox by using isboxer's videoFX.... but that doesnt feel in the spirit of the game. Not to mention the extra clicks to do anything, changing the look of the UI isnt something i want to do.

ive heard a lot about how this change is because of PVP in nullsec, bombers or something.... why not ban the use of input broadcasting/multiplexing only for PVP? :\ Some other MMOs handle it that way... But anyway...
Bolimbe
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2577 - 2014-12-14 18:18:41 UTC
marly cortez wrote:
The Sandbox ....What can be will be......except when we decide it's not to be. Compliments of CCP... Evil


It is not how you interact with the sandbox that makes it a sandbox, It is what you do inside the sandbox that makes it a sandbox. Pirate
Erasmus Grant
Order of the Eclipse
Triumvirate.
#2578 - 2014-12-14 18:33:03 UTC
YAY! P More power for the little guy.
Nolak Ataru
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#2579 - 2014-12-14 18:43:05 UTC
Erasmus Grant wrote:
YAY! P More power for the little guy.


Implying EWAR is nonexistant
Implying EWAR is less useful vs multiboxers
Implying there aren't dedicated hulls with bonuses to racial EWAR
Implying Cap Warfare does nothing to multiboxers
Implying that a single Falcon or single Celestis wouldn't royally screw with a boxer
Implying that 10 separate people are disadvantaged when maneuvering out of EWAR range

2/10 made me respond.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#2580 - 2014-12-14 19:26:06 UTC
Nico Fruehinsfeld wrote:
It's also a cut into my options. I don't have the chance to try ISBoxer or similar tools after the 01.01.2015 without having the risk of trouble. But thats ok because it's good for single toon players, new players, also healthy for actual broadcasting multiboxers and therefore good for EVE.
Yes you do. ISBoxer is not banned. ISBoxer will still be totally usable after January. Broadcasting is only a tiny fraction of what it can do.

Nico Fruehinsfeld wrote:
Belive me, I see the difference between a broadcaster and a usual multiboxer. Thats an easy task for me. Just shout if you need help to spot one.
No, you really don't, since there's no way to spot them. You're just going with "they all have the same name and there's a lot of them so they must be broadcasting". But following this change, those same people with the same names will still multibox using VideoFX, which is allowed. Most of the people you will see online after January will not be broadcasting, since it's insanely easy for the server to spot a broadcaster due to action timing. So unless you are able to see the server logs, you certainly won't be able to spot them. But by all means, report every multiboxer you see.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.