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Update regarding Multiboxing and input automation

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Cervix Thumper
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1981 - 2014-11-30 15:52:25 UTC
Commentus Nolen wrote:
I tried to find this program "Video FX" and all I could find was a video editing program. Is Video FX the correct name?


no it is a feature part of ISboxer and the Innerspace software.

You tube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HA88ndjh8x4

Cervix Thumper
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1982 - 2014-11-30 15:55:13 UTC
Madd Adda wrote:


which translates to 250 more plex on the market to buy, which will be scooped up by others. Demand is lower than before, but is still greater than the supply.



If demand was greater than supply there would be none on the market.
Commentus Nolen
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1983 - 2014-11-30 15:57:31 UTC
Thank you both for the Video FX info.
Cervix Thumper
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1984 - 2014-11-30 16:13:25 UTC
Rosewalker wrote:

So if each person averaged 10-20 accounts each, that's 250-500 Inner Space licenses that will not be renewed. At $50 a year, that means Lavish Software is going to lose $12,500 - $25,000 USD in the first year.



A) 34 subs * 50/ y = 1700
5000 subs * 50/y = 250,000

B) We can use Lavish across as many toons as we want. So loosing a 34 char sub = a loss of $50

C) Why would they unsub from Lavish if they can use it on other games? (unless the only use they have for it is Eve)

Just to keep numbers rounded..
1 player with 10 toons and unsubscribes from Eve will drain the Eve cash wallet of $1000 / year (aprox)
1 player with 10 toons and unsubscribes from Lavish will drain the Lavish wallet of $50 / year (aprox)

and that is just in subscriptions fees alone.


I don't know about you, but I have a feeling that CCP will loose more from boxers unsubbing than Lavish will.
Nolak Ataru
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#1985 - 2014-11-30 16:15:29 UTC
Cervix Thumper wrote:
If demand was greater than supply there would be none on the market.


Only if you think of PLEX as having a limited number, or that players "must" buy it instead of using a credit card or unsubbing for a month or so.

Remiel Pollard wrote:
if 160 tornado guns can be fired with one button push, by one player who can't be arsed making friends to fly 19 tornados with him in the multiplayer game, then I do have a problem with that. Whether or not I can adapt to it is unrelated to whether or not I like it.

Again you participate in some strange form of victim blaming and circular logic, but instead of blaming victims of actual violence you've somehow managed to convince yourself that CCP is Always Right (Incarna, anyone?) and that any change they do Must Be Right because CCP is Always Right, and that if the playerbase objects to a change they Must Be Wrong.

CCP is actively limiting our playstyle via the worst way possible. If people have a problem with ISBoxer and the way it's being used right now, (and I've seen more complaints and people quitting because of the local CODE monkeys than a 10-man skiff fleet) then what's to say CCP won't start limiting accounts active in the future? CCP is attempting to appease a vocal minority by implementing a massive change, and whenever a company listens to the vocal minority instead of attempting to get a poll from a greater majority of the playerbase and act upon it, bad things happen.
Sir Henry Stanley
Red Ecks Industries
#1986 - 2014-11-30 16:23:21 UTC
I don't really see what all the fuss is about.

- Wankers gonna ****.
- Cheaters gonna cheat.
- Haters gonna hate.

Tactile players with lots of friends are rejoicing because they perceive the game has been "balanced" in their favor; automation players are crying because they have to invest more R&D time building smarter tools to avoid detection. CCP isn't really doing anything to address the desire / temptation to participate in this type of activity -- they're just saying if there is overwhelmingly blatant evidence that you're doing it, you'll be temp-banned for 30 days.

What's the big f$&king deal?
Cervix Thumper
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1987 - 2014-11-30 16:23:22 UTC
Nolak Ataru wrote:
CCP is attempting to appease a vocal minority by implementing a massive change, and whenever a company listens to the vocal minority instead of attempting to get a poll from a greater majority of the playerbase and act upon it, bad things happen.



=D can all our toons participate in this Poll?
Bethan Le Troix
Krusual Investigation Agency
#1988 - 2014-11-30 16:26:35 UTC
The Ironfist wrote:
Hello CCP,

I'm using ISboxer to ice Mine among other things such as for window management in PVP. To stay conform with the new rules regarding Multiboxing software I updated my profile. I would like to know if the following is within the rules because my understanding is that it is but I want to be sure.

http://i.imgur.com/l2LccFu.png

What I use this for and what this does is simple. Every time I click the assigned key isboxer will synchronize the mouse courser position on the next client with the main clients then click control and then issue a left mouse click. Every time I click the assigned key it will do this first for client 1->2->3->4->5->end->1->.. when it reaches the last client it will reset and start again from client 1. I use this to lock up targets from the broadcast history window. Is that legit? Given that I'm doing one action to one client at a time?

I also have a round-robin key for opening the ore hold on an active ship and every time I click it it opens the ore hold on one client same order as above 1->2->3->4->5->end->1->

My understanding is that I'm interacting with one client at a time and not sending commands to multiple clients with 1 action so it should be fine?


That will be breaking the EULA after the new ruling starts. As I understand it you can you use that pesky ISBoxer type software to log on all your clients at once in a matter of seconds. I watch people doing this now by adding them to contacts & watchlists. Twisted . But after the new ruling begins you won't be allowed to use that software to start multiple accounts doing the same thing at the same time. Personally I feel it would be clearer & cleaner to make all usage of ISBoxer type software illegal. We can stop beating about the bush then.
The Ironfist
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1989 - 2014-11-30 16:32:15 UTC  |  Edited by: The Ironfist
Miomeifeng Alduin wrote:
The Ironfist wrote:
Hello CCP,

I'm using ISboxer to ice Mine among other things such as for window management in PVP. To stay conform with the new rules regarding Multiboxing software I updated my profile. I would like to know if the following is within the rules because my understanding is that it is but I want to be sure.

http://i.imgur.com/l2LccFu.png

What I use this for and what this does is simple. Every time I click the assigned key isboxer will synchronize the mouse courser position on the next client with the main clients then click control and then issue a left mouse click. Every time I click the assigned key it will do this first for client 1->2->3->4->5->end->1->.. when it reaches the last client it will reset and start again from client 1. I use this to lock up targets from the broadcast history window. Is that legit? Given that I'm doing one action to one client at a time?

I also have a round-robin key for opening the ore hold on an active ship and every time I click it it opens the ore hold on one client same order as above 1->2->3->4->5->end->1->

My understanding is that I'm interacting with one client at a time and not sending commands to multiple clients with 1 action so it should be fine?


You dont understand the concept behind: 1 click = 1 action. and you need to physically click? hell, they way you describe it, it actually does sound a lot like botting which you're doing. (i know isboxer is not a botting program, but this guy sure makes it sound like one)


Its not it simply sends one command to one client per click which is as per CCP change within the rules. Just because you dont understand what round-robin means doesn't make it botting. Someone should maybe explain to you what botting is..


Bethan Le Troix wrote:
The Ironfist wrote:
Hello CCP,

I'm using ISboxer to ice Mine among other things such as for window management in PVP. To stay conform with the new rules regarding Multiboxing software I updated my profile. I would like to know if the following is within the rules because my understanding is that it is but I want to be sure.

http://i.imgur.com/l2LccFu.png

What I use this for and what this does is simple. Every time I click the assigned key isboxer will synchronize the mouse courser position on the next client with the main clients then click control and then issue a left mouse click. Every time I click the assigned key it will do this first for client 1->2->3->4->5->end->1->.. when it reaches the last client it will reset and start again from client 1. I use this to lock up targets from the broadcast history window. Is that legit? Given that I'm doing one action to one client at a time?

I also have a round-robin key for opening the ore hold on an active ship and every time I click it it opens the ore hold on one client same order as above 1->2->3->4->5->end->1->

My understanding is that I'm interacting with one client at a time and not sending commands to multiple clients with 1 action so it should be fine?


That will be breaking the EULA after the new ruling starts. As I understand it you can you use that pesky ISBoxer type software to log on all your clients at once in a matter of seconds. I watch people doing this now by adding them to contacts & watchlists. Twisted . But after the new ruling begins you won't be allowed to use that software to start multiple accounts doing the same thing at the same time. Personally I feel it would be clearer & cleaner to make all usage of ISBoxer type software illegal. We can stop beating about the bush then.


its not per click one client is doing one action... only difference when using round-robin is that instead of having to use one key for each client you can have one key for all clients and each time you hit it it sends the command to the client n+1 when it reached the last client restarts at 1... That is exactly 1 command 1 client at a time.
Bethan Le Troix
Krusual Investigation Agency
#1990 - 2014-11-30 16:43:20 UTC
The Ironfist wrote:
Miomeifeng Alduin wrote:
The Ironfist wrote:
Hello CCP,

I'm using ISboxer to ice Mine among other things such as for window management in PVP. To stay conform with the new rules regarding Multiboxing software I updated my profile. I would like to know if the following is within the rules because my understanding is that it is but I want to be sure.

http://i.imgur.com/l2LccFu.png

What I use this for and what this does is simple. Every time I click the assigned key isboxer will synchronize the mouse courser position on the next client with the main clients then click control and then issue a left mouse click. Every time I click the assigned key it will do this first for client 1->2->3->4->5->end->1->.. when it reaches the last client it will reset and start again from client 1. I use this to lock up targets from the broadcast history window. Is that legit? Given that I'm doing one action to one client at a time?

I also have a round-robin key for opening the ore hold on an active ship and every time I click it it opens the ore hold on one client same order as above 1->2->3->4->5->end->1->

My understanding is that I'm interacting with one client at a time and not sending commands to multiple clients with 1 action so it should be fine?


You dont understand the concept behind: 1 click = 1 action. and you need to physically click? hell, they way you describe it, it actually does sound a lot like botting which you're doing. (i know isboxer is not a botting program, but this guy sure makes it sound like one)


Its not it simply sends one command to one client per click which is as per CCP change within the rules. Just because you dont understand what round-robin means doesn't make it botting. Someone should maybe explain to you what botting is..


Bethan Le Troix wrote:
The Ironfist wrote:
Hello CCP,

I'm using ISboxer to ice Mine among other things such as for window management in PVP. To stay conform with the new rules regarding Multiboxing software I updated my profile. I would like to know if the following is within the rules because my understanding is that it is but I want to be sure.

http://i.imgur.com/l2LccFu.png

What I use this for and what this does is simple. Every time I click the assigned key isboxer will synchronize the mouse courser position on the next client with the main clients then click control and then issue a left mouse click. Every time I click the assigned key it will do this first for client 1->2->3->4->5->end->1->.. when it reaches the last client it will reset and start again from client 1. I use this to lock up targets from the broadcast history window. Is that legit? Given that I'm doing one action to one client at a time?

I also have a round-robin key for opening the ore hold on an active ship and every time I click it it opens the ore hold on one client same order as above 1->2->3->4->5->end->1->

My understanding is that I'm interacting with one client at a time and not sending commands to multiple clients with 1 action so it should be fine?


That will be breaking the EULA after the new ruling starts. As I understand it you can you use that pesky ISBoxer type software to log on all your clients at once in a matter of seconds. I watch people doing this now by adding them to contacts & watchlists. Twisted . But after the new ruling begins you won't be allowed to use that software to start multiple accounts doing the same thing at the same time. Personally I feel it would be clearer & cleaner to make all usage of ISBoxer type software illegal. We can stop beating about the bush then.


its not per click one client is doing one action... only difference when using round-robin is that instead of having to use one key for each client you can have one key for all clients and each time you hit it it sends the command to the client n+1 when it reached the last client restarts at 1... That is exactly 1 command 1 client at a time.



Wow! That is an alternate universe way of looking at it. But CCP has said other than using it to log on or set up your interface or graphical changes you will not be allowed to use it to automate actions within the game. Which is what you intend to do. If I see you doing it you will be reported and banned. !!!!
The Ironfist
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1991 - 2014-11-30 16:45:16 UTC  |  Edited by: The Ironfist
Bethan Le Troix wrote:

Wow! That is an alternate universe way of looking at it. But CCP has said other than using it to log on or set up your interface or graphical changes you will not be allowed to use it to automate actions within the game. Which is what you intend to do. If I see you doing it you will be reported and banned. !!!!


Are you really this dumb? How is it automation please explain to me how when I'm sitting there moving the mouse clicking the keys.. I think you seriously do not understand what automation is or even means.

Lemme explain this to you.. all my clients have open ore hold bound to F3. For a total of 10 Skiffs.
Now in ISBoxer I have setup a keymap that will do the following:
When I press numpad 0 it will click F3 (open ore hold) on client 1
When I press numpad 0 again it'll do the same on client 2
and so forth once it reaches client 10 (least)
next time I hit numpad 0 it'll start at client 1 again.

You see 1 action to one client per click. If I go by what ccp is saying that is absolutely within the rules.
Bethan Le Troix
Krusual Investigation Agency
#1992 - 2014-11-30 16:45:47 UTC
Xander Phoena wrote:
As was noted in the CSM Summer Summit Minutes, I pushed hard for this change and I am delighted to see it finally implemented. The grey area that was simultaneous input commands needed to be killed off and I'm over the moon to see CCP go through with it.


Nice one Xander!
Bethan Le Troix
Krusual Investigation Agency
#1993 - 2014-11-30 16:46:46 UTC
The Ironfist wrote:
Bethan Le Troix wrote:

Wow! That is an alternate universe way of looking at it. But CCP has said other than using it to log on or set up your interface or graphical changes you will not be allowed to use it to automate actions within the game. Which is what you intend to do. If I see you doing it you will be reported and banned. !!!!


Are you really this dumb? How is it automation please explain to me how when I'm sitting there moving the mouse clicking the keys.. I think you seriously do not understand what automation is or even means.


I don't have the patience to discuss it with you further. CCP & the CSM have made a decision. You just have to abide by it.
Cervix Thumper
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1994 - 2014-11-30 17:00:20 UTC
Bethan Le Troix wrote:

That will be breaking the EULA after the new ruling starts. As I understand it you can you use that pesky ISBoxer type software to log on all your clients at once in a matter of seconds. I watch people doing this now by adding them to contacts & watchlists. Twisted . But after the new ruling begins you won't be allowed to use that software to start multiple accounts doing the same thing at the same time. Personally I feel it would be clearer & cleaner to make all usage of ISBoxer type software illegal. We can stop beating about the bush then.



Literacy 101? IS boxer isn't banned only 1 of the features it provides is. Logging in with ISboxer takes just as long and regular multiboxing. Doing the same thing at "the same time" (while in game) has been rendered illegal.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#1995 - 2014-11-30 17:18:17 UTC
Miomeifeng Alduin wrote:
You dont understand the concept behind: 1 click = 1 action. and you need to physically click? hell, they way you describe it, it actually does sound a lot like botting which you're doing. (i know isboxer is not a botting program, but this guy sure makes it sound like one)
He would be doing one click for one action, he'd just be clicking in one spot for an action elsewhere. It's like a cyclical keybind.

Commentus Nolen wrote:
I tried to find this program "Video FX" and all I could find was a video editing program. Is Video FX the correct name?

Yes, it's part of isboxer and can be seen here.
For an eve specific example it can do things like this.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#1996 - 2014-11-30 17:26:16 UTC
Bethan Le Troix wrote:
That will be breaking the EULA after the new ruling starts. As I understand it you can you use that pesky ISBoxer type software to log on all your clients at once in a matter of seconds. I watch people doing this now by adding them to contacts & watchlists. Twisted . But after the new ruling begins you won't be allowed to use that software to start multiple accounts doing the same thing at the same time. Personally I feel it would be clearer & cleaner to make all usage of ISBoxer type software illegal. We can stop beating about the bush then.
Actually, if you read the OP you will still be allowed to use broadcasting for logging in.

And what that guy was suggesting should not be against the EULA, since it will be 1 click per action, no broadcasting.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Rosewalker
Khumaak Flying Circus
#1997 - 2014-11-30 17:27:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Rosewalker
Cervix Thumper wrote:
Rosewalker wrote:

So if each person averaged 10-20 accounts each, that's 250-500 Inner Space licenses that will not be renewed. At $50 a year, that means Lavish Software is going to lose $12,500 - $25,000 USD in the first year.



A) 34 subs * 50/ y = 1700
5000 subs * 50/y = 250,000

B) We can use Lavish across as many toons as we want. So loosing a 34 char sub = a loss of $50

C) Why would they unsub from Lavish if they can use it on other games? (unless the only use they have for it is Eve)

Just to keep numbers rounded..
1 player with 10 toons and unsubscribes from Eve will drain the Eve cash wallet of $1000 / year (aprox)
1 player with 10 toons and unsubscribes from Lavish will drain the Lavish wallet of $50 / year (aprox)

and that is just in subscriptions fees alone.


I don't know about you, but I have a feeling that CCP will loose more from boxers unsubbing than Lavish will.


I don't actually understand point A, or how you disagree with me on point B. Are you knocking off points because I didn't show my work? Shocked

Also, unless you buy into Lucas' implied argument (which is a reasonable one) that the lowering of the price of the ISK price of PLEX will drive people to buy ISK from shady ISK sellers, thus meaning that CCP loses money, the only financial loss I see from this is from all the ISBoxers who are going to drop accounts that they were using RL currency to pay for. And we don't know that percentage.

However, since CCP has been monitoring the activity of ISBoxer users for months, they probably have a pretty good idea of any potential financial hit. Apparently, they don't mind the results, which could mean that 1) the hit is small enough they won't notice or 2) they believe they will make money on the move. The third option, of course, is that they know they are going to take a significant financial hit, but the negative effects of input broadcasting/multiplexing are so bad for the game that they have no choice but to act.

The Nosy Gamer - CCP Random: "hehe, falls under the category: nice try, but no. ;)"
Miomeifeng Alduin
Lithonauts Inc.
#1998 - 2014-11-30 17:38:27 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Miomeifeng Alduin wrote:
You dont understand the concept behind: 1 click = 1 action. and you need to physically click? hell, they way you describe it, it actually does sound a lot like botting which you're doing. (i know isboxer is not a botting program, but this guy sure makes it sound like one)
He would be doing one click for one action, he'd just be clicking in one spot for an action elsewhere. It's like a cyclical keybind.

Commentus Nolen wrote:
I tried to find this program "Video FX" and all I could find was a video editing program. Is Video FX the correct name?

Yes, it's part of isboxer and can be seen here.
For an eve specific example it can do things like this.



in that case i apologize. from the post it seemed for me, like it would be 1 click -> macro which goes through the list with a slight delay, and automating the process of doing everything. If its indeed 1 click -> 1 action, i believe it isn't against the rules stated.
Nolak Ataru
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#1999 - 2014-11-30 17:52:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Nolak Ataru
Xander Phoena wrote:
As was noted in the CSM Summer Summit Minutes, I pushed hard for this change and I am delighted to see it finally implemented. The grey area that was simultaneous input commands needed to be killed off and I'm over the moon to see CCP go through with it.


Anyone else wanna bet that Xander has zero experience with ISBoxer, understands nothing about it, and refuses to understand the fundamental difference between a boxer and a botter?

e: I'd be willing to go so far as to wager that Xander is simply drinking the kool aid.
Cervix Thumper
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#2000 - 2014-11-30 17:53:37 UTC
Rosewalker wrote:
Cervix Thumper wrote:
Rosewalker wrote:

So if each person averaged 10-20 accounts each, that's 250-500 Inner Space licenses that will not be renewed. At $50 a year, that means Lavish Software is going to lose $12,500 - $25,000 USD in the first year.



A) 34 subs * 50/ y = 1700
5000 subs * 50/y = 250,000

B) We can use Lavish across as many toons as we want. So loosing a 34 char sub = a loss of $50

C) Why would they unsub from Lavish if they can use it on other games? (unless the only use they have for it is Eve)

Just to keep numbers rounded..
1 player with 10 toons and unsubscribes from Eve will drain the Eve cash wallet of $1000 / year (aprox)
1 player with 10 toons and unsubscribes from Lavish will drain the Lavish wallet of $50 / year (aprox)

and that is just in subscriptions fees alone.


I don't know about you, but I have a feeling that CCP will loose more from boxers unsubbing than Lavish will.


I don't actually understand point A, or how you disagree with me on point B. Are you knocking off points because I didn't show my work? Shocked

Also, unless you buy into Lucas' implied argument (which is a reasonable one) that the lowering of the price of the ISK price of PLEX will drive people to buy ISK from shady ISK sellers, thus meaning that CCP loses money, the only financial loss I see from this is from all the ISBoxers who are going to drop accounts that they were using RL currency to pay for. And we don't know that percentage.

However, since CCP has been monitoring the activity of ISBoxer users for months, they probably have a pretty good idea of any potential financial hit. Apparently, they don't mind the results, which could mean that 1) the hit is small enough they won't notice or 2) they believe they will make money on the move. The third option, of course, is that they know they are going to take a significant financial hit, but the negative effects of input broadcasting/multiplexing are so bad for the game that they have no choice but to act.



in part yes, I don't know how you came to get the numbers explained in your previous post. But as outlined above.. CCP would take the larger hit and I suppose it is due to the number of replacement ships they are giving out + labour involved in processing those tickets that has prompted this move.

paying x number of CSMs x amount to process ISboxer gank claims does add up... then there are the # of other boxer transgression (50+ in mining) etc... well either way... I didn't understand where you get your figures from but I can understand with CCPs decision. I may not agree with it, but I do have to comply.