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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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ISK SINKS WE NEED - Post your ideas here.

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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#161 - 2014-11-26 09:45:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Nevyn Auscent
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:

True enough and an important point, there is definitely inflation over time. The issue would be whether it is healthy or out of control. Right now my opinion would be that it's fine at the moment. I would imagine that CCP keep a very close eye on this kind of thing so not to really tic everyone off with prices rising too fast

Except.... There isn't. EVE has periods of deflation also.
Inflation also is not a requirement for a healthy market. That's a myth propagated by big business.

Price changes can all be traced to direct game changes. Starting with the removal of the NPC sold shuttles which capped Trit prices for example. And up to the most recent massive increases in minerals for things and decrease in mineral production from the refining changes.
Even Plex prices can be traced to increased demand leading to increased speculation over them.

This entire thread is a solution looking for a problem that doesn't exist.
Ceawlin Cobon-Han
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#162 - 2014-11-26 09:52:00 UTC
Make broker fees variable, depending on the volume of trade carried out in that station. The higher the volume (more popular) the higher the brokerage fees. While no fees can drop below 1% unmodified, they can climb. This will ensure Jita becomes a massive isk sink, with the side effect of pressuring trade to disperse more throughout New Eden.

Don't think it will cripple trade. People will still come to buy and sell. If the prices climb to offset the increased cost of trading then the amount taken in sales tax increases, removing more isk from the game.

I await the whines of butthurt station traders. Please begin.Roll
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#163 - 2014-11-26 10:00:54 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:

I already posted this several times. Supercapital mantainance fee. 5 bil per month for titan 1 bil per month for SC. Either we will have a great isk sink or we will have less titans being built :P


This could be interesting, and i could also vote for this.
But what about people :
- who own a super, and don't use it, it is just logged out somewhere on the alt account
- what about unsubbed accounts
- what about people who bought supers before this change?
- what about groups who need supers to compete with current "super powers" ?

I think it is to late to change those rules.




In order :

- Make the payment based on real world date. how many days since your last payment? More than 30? then no jump drive for you.
- See above.. the same. When you return if you want to use your jump drive.. pay the monthly fee.
-Those are exaclty the ones that need to be affected. Too many in game

- This is one of the rare changes that would affect MORE the superpowers than the smaller groups. Smaller groups do not have surplus reserve supers. They still have not filled the characters that actively would use them. While super powers have lots of people in supers that never even use them, just in case,, as a reserve force. This reserve forces would cost a small fortune this way.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#164 - 2014-11-26 11:23:54 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:

True enough and an important point, there is definitely inflation over time. The issue would be whether it is healthy or out of control. Right now my opinion would be that it's fine at the moment. I would imagine that CCP keep a very close eye on this kind of thing so not to really tic everyone off with prices rising too fast

Except.... There isn't. EVE has periods of deflation also.
Inflation also is not a requirement for a healthy market. That's a myth propagated by big business.

Price changes can all be traced to direct game changes. Starting with the removal of the NPC sold shuttles which capped Trit prices for example. And up to the most recent massive increases in minerals for things and decrease in mineral production from the refining changes.
Even Plex prices can be traced to increased demand leading to increased speculation over them.

This entire thread is a solution looking for a problem that doesn't exist.


I'd say there is always inflation depending on the timescale you take :D Completely agree that there is no issue though.
Terraj Oknatis
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#165 - 2014-11-26 14:34:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Terraj Oknatis
PVP is a material sink not an isk sink.

An "ISK Sink" refers to any mechanic where ISK leaving a players wallet is not going into another players wallet, i.e. the ISK is being absorbed or destroyed by a NPC entity.

PvP (destroying ships) is not an ISK Sink. PVP is a material sink because a ship and modules are destroyed, and it is an ISK faucet as the victim receives insurance. The original purchase of the ship is an ISK Transfer.

Lets get that out of the way first and foremost.

Now that we removed this false notion from our minds we have a major problem with inflation coming on December 9th. The biggest isk sink in the game; clone upgrades is going to be removed from the game. This will cause inflation unless counter balances are implemented. After december 9th we have 3 isk faucets. These isk faucets in order of magnitude are:

1. Ratting payouts
2. Insurance payments
3. Mission isk rewards

There are also 5 Isk sinks:

1.Purchasing from NPC Buy-Orders (Trade Goods, POS Equipment, Blueprint Originals, NPC seeded skill books).
2. Purchasing Insurance (but not claiming).
3. Sales Taxes.
4. Office Rental Fees.
5. Sec Status Adjustment Fees (Not the tags themselves)

The trick here is balancing all 8 of these items so that the amount of isk in the game doesn't overflow the bathtub or drain it.

I am in favor of removing faucet option 3 because ratting is not fun and it is by far the biggest faucet by many orders of magnitude. I hate that players can do an activity in the game that magically generates isk for no reason at all. It doesnt make any damn sense.

However that idea is pretty radical so I guess it would be more reasonable to adjust each one slightly as not to offend any one group. Raise taxes a little, lower insurance some, reduce ratting payouts by a margin, reduce isk mission rewards, increase the price of POS equipment and BPO's and skill books, increase sales tax, increase office rental fees, and increase sec status adjustment fees. Turn down each faucet slightly and drill bigger holes into the sinks so the bathtub stays at a nice even level and also that perfect temperature just before it starts to burn.

I don't think they will do anything as radical as adding a whole new sink. I think they can manage to balance the existing ones to make it work. If they do add a new sink they are definitely not going to go offending capital pilots further with maintenance fees and the likes. Those guys already got nerfed pretty hard last month.

CCP is aware of these forces and I'm sure can manage to balance these numbers to quell inflation without doing anything in your face drastic. They will need some time to for the dust to settle before adjustment.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#166 - 2014-11-26 14:43:40 UTC
If you really think clone costs are a "major" isk sink with the majority of people living in high sec, never dying....I don't know what to tell you. People bitched about them because they hit the cornerstone of the game - pewpew.

There are also more isk sinks and faucets than you listed.
Terraj Oknatis
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#167 - 2014-11-26 15:24:01 UTC
afkalt wrote:
If you really think clone costs are a "major" isk sink with the majority of people living in high sec, never dying....I don't know what to tell you. People bitched about them because they hit the cornerstone of the game - pewpew.

There are also more isk sinks and faucets than you listed.


Clones can sink upwards of 100 million isk per pod death. Thats pretty significant. I don't have the numbers but saying that nobody dies in high sec not only isn't true but is an overgeneralization. More importantly where the pilot is podded is irrelevant. A pod is a pod and you still have to replace it with a new and upgraded clone.

You may be correct to say that taxes is the biggest sink in the aggregate. Taxes sink a certain percentage of sales from the market per transaction. There are a lot of transactions so maybe all CCP needs to do is make a simple and slight tax adjustment.

I would like to know what the other sinks and faucets are that you would have mentioned. Im sure there may be more but that is a mute point as it would be more things CCP could play with to reduce inflation.

I still stand with my initial point that CCP has enough numbers to play with to quell inflation.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#168 - 2014-11-26 15:24:34 UTC
Terraj Oknatis wrote:
-poop-
3. Mission isk rewards

I am in favor of removing faucet option 3 because ratting is not fun and it is by far the biggest faucet by many orders of magnitude. I hate that players can do an activity in the game that magically generates isk for no reason at all. It doesnt make any damn sense.
-even more poop-


So the only thing a noob would be doing is waving her hands and wait for magic so stuff get there to make something imaginary with it.

Biomass your npc naow!

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever
Terraj Oknatis
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#169 - 2014-11-26 15:40:02 UTC
elitatwo wrote:
Terraj Oknatis wrote:
-poop-
3. Mission isk rewards

I am in favor of removing faucet option 3 because ratting is not fun and it is by far the biggest faucet by many orders of magnitude. I hate that players can do an activity in the game that magically generates isk for no reason at all. It doesnt make any damn sense.
-even more poop-


So the only thing a noob would be doing is waving her hands and wait for magic so stuff get there to make something imaginary with it.

Biomass your npc naow!


However that idea is pretty radical so...
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#170 - 2014-11-26 16:21:28 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
Terraj Oknatis wrote:
afkalt wrote:
If you really think clone costs are a "major" isk sink with the majority of people living in high sec, never dying....I don't know what to tell you. People bitched about them because they hit the cornerstone of the game - pewpew.

There are also more isk sinks and faucets than you listed.


Clones can sink upwards of 100 million isk per pod death. Thats pretty significant. I don't have the numbers but saying that nobody dies in high sec not only isn't true but is an overgeneralization. More importantly where the pilot is podded is irrelevant. A pod is a pod and you still have to replace it with a new and upgraded clone.

You may be correct to say that taxes is the biggest sink in the aggregate. Taxes sink a certain percentage of sales from the market per transaction. There are a lot of transactions so maybe all CCP needs to do is make a simple and slight tax adjustment.

I would like to know what the other sinks and faucets are that you would have mentioned. Im sure there may be more but that is a mute point as it would be more things CCP could play with to reduce inflation.

I still stand with my initial point that CCP has enough numbers to play with to quell inflation.


Where people die is relevant in this case - it is not unreasonable to state that most of pod losses are in null/WH space. Then we must consider the relative population skew when considering how many people pay said clone tax.

One of my alts is in the 50-70-odd million SP range, so it's a 9.x million pod. Not many have 100m pods.

The point being - where they are podded relative to the population shows the effectiveness of said sink - and given the minority of the population are paying it most often tells us the sink is a poor one - an after thought at best.

There are sinks in science and industry, loyalty point stores, repair costs (module, mainly) - faucets also include NPC buy orders for kit.


To be honest, I'd expect a months worth of clone costs to be covered by a days worth of trade taxes, maybe even an hour.
Gadget Helmsdottir
Gadget's Workshop
#171 - 2014-11-26 18:15:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Gadget Helmsdottir
Comprehensive list of sinks and faucets:


Faucets:

  • Mission Rewards
  • Insurance Payments
  • NPC Buy Orders
  • Ratting Bounties


Sinks:

  • Clone upgrades (gone on Dec 9th)
  • Jump Clone Installation
  • SCC Taxes (Market & Contracts)
  • Industry Taxes
  • Repairs
  • LP Purchaces (with ISK)
  • Insurance Purchace
  • Leaving the Game
  • Station Rent (to NPC's)
  • Market Purchaces from NPC Sell Orders
  • Tag Fees
  • PI Transport Fees (to the NPC)
  • PI Set-up Fees
  • Sov Bills
  • War Dec Fees
  • Contraband Fines
  • Corp/Alliance Creation Costs



The above is just a list of the current faucets and sinks. This list will be updated whenever one not listed is mentioned.

--Gadget

Work smarter, not harder. --Scrooge McDuck, an eminent old-Earth economist

Given an hour to save New Eden, how would respected scientist, Albertus Eisenstein compose his thoughts? "Fifty-five minutes to define the problem; save the galaxy in five."
Anhenka
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#172 - 2014-11-26 18:19:20 UTC
Gadget Helmsdottir wrote:
Comprehensive list of sinks and faucets:

The above is just a list of the current faucets and sinks. This list will be updated whenever one not listed is mentioned.

--Gadget



Pssss.... Sov Bills. Although that might fall under NPC rent, but that makes me think offices.

Sov being the single largest sink after all, it should probably get its own mention.
Gadget Helmsdottir
Gadget's Workshop
#173 - 2014-11-26 18:27:30 UTC
Anhenka wrote:
Gadget Helmsdottir wrote:
Comprehensive list of sinks and faucets:

The above is just a list of the current faucets and sinks. This list will be updated whenever one not listed is mentioned.

--Gadget



Pssss.... Sov Bills. Although that might fall under NPC rent, but that makes me think offices.

Sov being the single largest sink after all, it should probably get its own mention.


Whoops. Oops
Added


--Gadget

Work smarter, not harder. --Scrooge McDuck, an eminent old-Earth economist

Given an hour to save New Eden, how would respected scientist, Albertus Eisenstein compose his thoughts? "Fifty-five minutes to define the problem; save the galaxy in five."
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#174 - 2014-11-26 19:13:44 UTC
elitatwo wrote:
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
What's fatal is altering one module without considering the impact it has on other variations of the same type. It's one thing to buff faction shield boosters because they believe the gap between faction and deadspace too great, and the gap between faction and lower too small, but it's another thing entirely to buff faction shield boosters to boost shield tanking in general.


They did that because they almost nerfed links and gave shield boosters and armor reps a tiny buff in hp/s.

But what happened was:

CCP said logi too stronkh', nerf all ships with resistence

We: But why not nerf logi instead??

CCP: buff shield boosters and armor reps by 10% and here take ancillery boosters and reps

We: .....

CCP: and pls don't make duoble-xl-asb fits in the tournament, that's crazy

We: ...but you gave us What?What?

CCP: nah, we said it's interesting gameplay, so make it interesting

We: LolLolShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedEvil

Yep, pretty much that exactly. I'd imagine another part of it went a little something like this:

"X-Large shield booster has low enough powergrid to fit on battlecruisers, no worry only armor BCs will be able to fit it and it costs too much CPU. Also the high CPU cost and low amount of slots they have means it'll never get fit on cruisers."

Cyclone and Claymore start fitting X-Large shield boosters for retardedly strong defenses.

"That's okay. Cyclone hits like a wet noodle and Claymore is tech 2 so it should be retardedly strong. Ignore the Sleipnir and Vulture.
Now lets add a new ship under tech 3 called Lightning Templar, I mean Strategic Cruiser. It'll have cruiser mobility with battlecruiser HP and slots, and tech 2 resists and battlecruiser damage. Ignore how it's the only t2-resist ships that can fit XL shield booster and still move like an interceptor with 100MN AB while also fitting hardeners and point."

People start fitting XL shield booster to Tengu and Loki and even Legion and Proteus and run around with 2000 EHP/s+ defense and the ability to withdraw from any fight that doesn't have them locked down with 2+ pirate faction webber ships.

"Lets buff cruisers cause they DIAF. Ignore that they are smaller than BCs but have almost the same agility/velocity/sig and instead lets buff their PG and slots.
On a completely unrelated change, lets add an ancillary shield booster that makes onboard reps super strong for a little while. It won't hurt anything because everyone either takes heavy fire for a long time or is in short engagements anyway. It especially won't make cruisers OP because ASBs cost a slot and then cruisers don't have enough room for prop+point+hardeners. We expect Merlin to rock with it (the dámn thing needed a purpose anyway). Forget the Gila and Worm, they probably won't be unreasonably buffed."

Cruisers start getting fitted with XL ASBs and begin to actually not suck. Everything looks good by number of each ship type flown cause all the OP ships are expensive enough for t1 ship numbers to still be higher. CCP ignores number of kills by each ship.

Next up: "we're going to nerf strategic cruisers finally," (huge list of cool balance changes that make the strategic cruisers actually fit with everything else post-tiericide), "and then we're going to add a totally OP module that underpowered ships like cruisers and frigates can fit to help them compete with OP BCs and T3s." And before you know it we're playing Frigates and Cruisers online. Cue start of next 12 year cycle.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Anthar Thebess
#175 - 2014-11-27 07:49:11 UTC
Bump,
Post ideas.

Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists

Show your support to The Cause!
Anhenka
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#176 - 2014-11-27 07:54:41 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:
Bump,
Post ideas.


Do not bump in features and ideas. If an idea has exhausted the willingness to discuss it then it shoudl die.

Plus it's also in the forum rules.

No bumping in this subsection.



Also the consensus from everyone who knows what they are talking about is that we have all the isk sinks we need, as evidenced by a lack of inflation.
King Fu Hostile
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#177 - 2014-11-27 11:30:35 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:
Prof about inflation?
When i started playing you could buy Dread hull for 500mil on local market, i was not living in the drone regions.
Since then :
- there was slight nerf to npc bounty
- boost to ratting ships dps
- changes to production , that both raised and lowered minerals needs to build dreadnought.
Hard to say now , but i don't expect that total change will be bigger than 15% any way.

Currently the same dread hull cost 2.5bil.

Total Change 2bil.

Good enough?
Remember that this 500mil price tag was local market , and people where very happy to sell those ships on this price.


No, this does not prove "inflation", and even less links it to lack of ISK sinks. Inflation is sustained increase in general price level of all goods.

I could pick a product X which cost more two years ago than it does today, and that would be as irrelevant as your dread example.

Seriously, you can log in, go to Forge and examine 20-30 common products, the market window allows you to view the graph for a year. If your inflation was real, every product would show a steadily rising graph.

But currently, none of them do.
M1k3y Koontz
House of Musashi
Stay Feral
#178 - 2014-11-27 16:08:32 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:

True enough and an important point, there is definitely inflation over time. The issue would be whether it is healthy or out of control. Right now my opinion would be that it's fine at the moment. I would imagine that CCP keep a very close eye on this kind of thing so not to really tic everyone off with prices rising too fast

Except.... There isn't. EVE has periods of deflation also.
Inflation also is not a requirement for a healthy market. That's a myth propagated by big business.

Price changes can all be traced to direct game changes. Starting with the removal of the NPC sold shuttles which capped Trit prices for example. And up to the most recent massive increases in minerals for things and decrease in mineral production from the refining changes.
Even Plex prices can be traced to increased demand leading to increased speculation over them.

This entire thread is a solution looking for a problem that doesn't exist.


Thank you.
/thread

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
Alundil
Rolled Out
#179 - 2014-11-27 16:43:48 UTC
Isk/F&I thread starts.

CCP implements a dislike button on the forums.
Every dislike is 100,000 isk.
CCP implements bounty feature on the forums.


Billions of isk sunk into bounties and bad forum posts. The Eve economy is saved.
/proposal

I'm right behind you
Anthar Thebess
#180 - 2014-11-28 14:46:56 UTC
Alundil wrote:
Isk/F&I thread starts.

CCP implements a dislike button on the forums.
Every dislike is 100,000 isk.
CCP implements bounty feature on the forums.


Billions of isk sunk into bounties and bad forum posts. The Eve economy is saved.
/proposal


Why not :)
But make this dislike at least 1mil ISK

Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists

Show your support to The Cause!