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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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would the world end if modules automatically stopped overheat at 99%

First post
Author
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#21 - 2014-11-20 06:16:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Altrue
Honestly, I would be agreeing with the people saying that the point of overheating is to have to be careful not to break your module... BUT, right now, the overheating UI and mecanic is too lame and too unintuitive for that.

Think about it, even though we have the code in place to show precisely how much heat is repaired with nanites in-flight, when you exit repair mode, you still only see a damage indicated divided in 6... and that's all. No precision at all. The module could be damaged at 99 or 86%, it doesn't tell you. You need to mouseover to see it... That's stupid.

Dangerous game mecanics should be dangerous because of a player's mistake, not because you have to fight the UI. So yeah, if I break my guns, part of the problem will be me... But a larger part will be because the UI required me to mouseover constantly over the weapons icon, to see the heat damage with a 1% precision.

Also, seeing the heat damage increase over time, each second during the module cycle, would greatly help. Right now, you see the heat damage when the next circle is already started. There is basically zero player decision involved, because the second you have the information to make that decision, the game already forced your hand in making the next-one (overheating or not for the next cycle).

So yeah... again, in theory I'd be opposed to a safety. But current UI design and game mecanics really aren't good enough for that.

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Rain6637
Simulacra and Simulation
Dracarys.
#22 - 2014-11-20 06:44:10 UTC
how about a guaranteed burnout, massive bonus, one-shot alpha strike option. there's places to go with heat.
Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
#23 - 2014-11-20 07:13:16 UTC
Rain6637 wrote:
how about a guaranteed burnout, massive bonus, one-shot alpha strike option. there's places to go with heat.



carrier/depot refit on the spot a source of potential abuse. Burn em out and swap them. Camp/fleet and target(s) they are trying to pop depending you could see some bad things happening.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#24 - 2014-11-20 07:27:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
Rain6637 wrote:
that's a likely story. but I'll humor you. why is because it's a features and ideas discussion on a topic.


Very well then: What is your alternative to have the 99% damage switch and still keep the pilot error possibility in place?

--

@Altrue

You can estimate the next cycle's probable heat damage to your module by taking the damage steps of the previous cycles into account. If you are at 95% damage and the previous cycles added damage between 3-5% to your gun, it's very likely that the next cycle destroys them, hence you turn overheat off.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Luwc
LOGOS Community
Lux Collective
#25 - 2014-11-20 07:56:14 UTC
Nah

Not a big fan easymodes.

http://hugelolcdn.com/i/267520.gif

WhyYouHeffToBeMad IsOnlyGame
#26 - 2014-11-20 07:59:00 UTC
TheExtruder wrote:
a fail safe mechanic of some kind

there is one, it's called "awareness".

Everything's a game if you make it one - Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci

CCP: Continously Crying Playerbase - Frostys Virpio

Rain6637
Simulacra and Simulation
Dracarys.
#27 - 2014-11-20 08:02:11 UTC
Zan Shiro wrote:
Rain6637 wrote:
how about a guaranteed burnout, massive bonus, one-shot alpha strike option. there's places to go with heat.



carrier/depot refit on the spot a source of potential abuse. Burn em out and swap them. Camp/fleet and target(s) they are trying to pop depending you could see some bad things happening.

refitting and spare mods is already a thing.

Rivr Luzade wrote:
Rain6637 wrote:
that's a likely story. but I'll humor you. why is because it's a features and ideas discussion on a topic.


Very well then: What is your alternative to have the 99% damage switch and still keep the pilot error possibility in place?

I've posted two. I've never heard of a case of illiteracy where the person can type but can't read.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#28 - 2014-11-20 08:15:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
Rain6637 wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Rain6637 wrote:
that's a likely story. but I'll humor you. why is because it's a features and ideas discussion on a topic.


Very well then: What is your alternative to have the 99% damage switch and still keep the pilot error possibility in place?

I've posted two. I've never heard of a case of illiteracy where the person can type but can't read.


1 as far as I can tell. Your first suggestion, the reduced overheat for a failsafe, which would make the overheat mechanic even more complicated as you would have 1 overheat without failsafe and 1 overheat with failsafe, which in turn brings us back to Altrue's brought up problem of "battling the UI". That problem of an UI cluttered with even more choice and chance to click the wrong option without realizing or in the wrong setting at the wrong time might qualify as "failsafe switch while retaining chance for pilot error", though I have my doubts that making the UI worse is a good approach to achieve that.

Your second suggestion has no failsafe and no risk, as it destroys the weapon regardless. Next?

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Rain6637
Simulacra and Simulation
Dracarys.
#29 - 2014-11-20 08:36:16 UTC
bro. I've never seen a worse case of grr goons. either that or you're always confrontational. or you're just special.

the reduced heat mode is meant for exactly the way you describe, where normal heat for one more cycle would burn out the module. the same thing is already happening on the first heat cycle, where using heat just one time will not add damage.

the alpha strike burnout option is valid too. in fact, current heat and my two suggestions can work together, like:

normal heat cycle
normal heat cycle
normal heat cycle
normal heat cycle
normal heat cycle
normal heat cycle
reduced heat cycle
reduced heat cycle
reduced heat cycle
reduced heat cycle
alpha strike

one way the reduced heat cycle should behave is a steady heat level that neither increases or demishes

now it's your turn to think of something creative regarding heat
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#30 - 2014-11-20 08:55:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
Roll

I don't need to come up with something "creative regarding heat" as I am with the folks who don't see a need for change. There is no need for different modes, as overheat works as intended already: You have the bonus damage by damaging your guns. How far you can damage your guns is easily visible on the module and the tool tip of the module, and by watching your modules during fight and overheat you can see how far you can overheat and when to stop. That little bit of taking various effects of overheating into account is called "learning" (by experience or from others), something that has seen a short straw in recent EVE history. If you overheat, you have to pay attention to it and the details to overheating, which requires watching your modules as well as the fight around you. Overheating is not an Easy-Mode On-Switch, where you just get more damage and can continue watching movies, it's an advanced feature of combat requiring skill and knowledge. If you don't have that, you would do better acquiring it first before you use overheat and fail at using it.

Now, as for your "creative something regarding heat": How do you turn on the reduced heat cycle? How do you turn it off? How can I tell my weapons not to go into reduced OH at all if I don't need that? What point has an alpha strike on weapons which don't have alpha damage capabilities, such as short range pulse lasers, missile launchers or autocannons? Where is the risk of pilot error if every heatcycle follows your described pattern? I take it that the safety switch turns on when the heat reaches a certain damage level and continues the heat with reduced damage and bonus, then bursts in an alpha strike and turns heat off automatically? Or destroys the gun, making the safety switch pointless?

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

TheExtruder
TheExtruder Corporation
#31 - 2014-11-20 09:14:51 UTC
Rain6637 wrote:
bro. I've never seen a worse case of grr goons. either that or you're always confrontational. or you're just special.

the reduced heat mode is meant for exactly the way you describe, where normal heat for one more cycle would burn out the module. the same thing is already happening on the first heat cycle, where using heat just one time will not add damage.

the alpha strike burnout option is valid too. in fact, current heat and my two suggestions can work together, like:

normal heat cycle
normal heat cycle
normal heat cycle
normal heat cycle
normal heat cycle
normal heat cycle
reduced heat cycle
reduced heat cycle
reduced heat cycle
reduced heat cycle
alpha strike

one way the reduced heat cycle should behave is a steady heat level that neither increases or demishes

now it's your turn to think of something creative regarding heat


like the idea
TheExtruder
TheExtruder Corporation
#32 - 2014-11-20 09:18:03 UTC
Altrue wrote:
Honestly, I would be agreeing with the people saying that the point of overheating is to have to be careful not to break your module... BUT, right now, the overheating UI and mecanic is too lame and too unintuitive for that.

Think about it, even though we have the code in place to show precisely how much heat is repaired with nanites in-flight, when you exit repair mode, you still only see a damage indicated divided in 6... and that's all. No precision at all. The module could be damaged at 99 or 86%, it doesn't tell you. You need to mouseover to see it... That's stupid.

Dangerous game mecanics should be dangerous because of a player's mistake, not because you have to fight the UI. So yeah, if I break my guns, part of the problem will be me... But a larger part will be because the UI required me to mouseover constantly over the weapons icon, to see the heat damage with a 1% precision.

Also, seeing the heat damage increase over time, each second during the module cycle, would greatly help. Right now, you see the heat damage when the next circle is already started. There is basically zero player decision involved, because the second you have the information to make that decision, the game already forced your hand in making the next-one (overheating or not for the next cycle).

So yeah... again, in theory I'd be opposed to a safety. But current UI design and game mecanics really aren't good enough for that.


yup the UI sort of removes the "player skill" and confuses newer players to a point where they are stuck in space with a dead module and it just kills the fun. Also i enjoy flying all sorts of ships and when i hop into a smaller ship and i am in the middle of a fight its easy to forget to turn off overload quicker than i would have to in a cruiser for example, cant all ships have similar overheat timings at least?
Ix Method
Doomheim
#33 - 2014-11-20 09:34:03 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Roll

I don't need to come up with something "creative regarding heat" as I am with the folks who don't see a need for change. There is no need for different modes, as overheat works as intended already: You have the bonus damage by damaging your guns.

This is so blatantly true it's hard to believe people are arguing? Your weapons are cooled sufficently when not overheated, you gain extra damage/whatever by exceeding that limit. Having any sort of cutoff point just gives people free dps for no risk while putting new players at a disadvantage, which is absurd.

Travelling at the speed of love.

Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#34 - 2014-11-20 09:34:12 UTC
TheExtruder wrote:
yup the UI sort of removes the "player skill" and confuses newer players to a point where they are stuck in space with a dead module and it just kills the fun. Also i enjoy flying all sorts of ships and when i hop into a smaller ship and i am in the middle of a fight its easy to forget to turn off overload quicker than i would have to in a cruiser for example, cant all ships have similar overheat timings at least?


Their own fault for not asking other players. It is not like there are no other players around who couldn't teach them how to read the overheat damage on modules.

That you forget to turn it off is exactly the point of it. You are not aware of your ship's systems and these mistakes cost you your ship or kill. Therefore, you have to learn how to keep track of that and how to manage different ship classes. Having all ships cause the same heat damage does not make sense for a variety of reasons:

  • bigger ships have more capabilities to store and dissipate heat than smaller ships;
  • smaller weapons are more fragile than bigger weapons, which means the overheat deals more damage quicker to them;
  • small weapons cycle a lot faster than bigger weapons, which means that they subjectively suffer more heat damage than bigger weapons. However, they all suffer the same amount and all modules have the same hit points.


Homogenizing that just takes off even more flavor from the game and makes it less challenging to fight. Instead, players should make more use of the much touted, much loved social aspect of the game and ask other players or at least read the manifold resources available in the internet about things they have not tried yet before they try it and fail. Asking for a failsafe just because they don't do it, does not help to make the game better.

I won't deny that the UI could be improved, but completely removing the element of pilot mistake and error and the variety between different modules and ship classes does not help the game at all.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#35 - 2014-11-20 09:37:52 UTC
I'll say it again. If I'm overclocking weapons, I want more control of how much overclocking I'm doing! Make variable heating % a thing for bittervets and the performance obsessed to fiddle with and let everyone else set it for a "safe" and conservative overheat.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp

Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
#36 - 2014-11-20 09:43:38 UTC
no.
as others already said, you overheat at your own risk and knowledge, burning out modules is the cost. This is all fine.
Rain6637
Simulacra and Simulation
Dracarys.
#37 - 2014-11-20 15:21:54 UTC
there's so much creative thinking in this thread. way to question the paradigm.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#38 - 2014-11-20 16:04:47 UTC
variable overheating? ok

as it is, the chance of breaking your mods creates entertaining risk/reward scenarios, hilarious comms and flapping commentators during tournaments. So there should never be a point where you can overheat forever and no system where the overheat turns itself off, no matter how much youve 'toned down' the heating. Otherwise there is no point in not overheating as normal to the point of 99% and then switching to a reduced heat and still getting benefits for no trade off.


As for 'Alpha' overheating, id be careful how far you go with this. Sure more control sounds good, and it'd be a healthy buff to ganking in hi-sec but i have an issue with it:

Are you saying you can over heat normally to the point of 99% damage and then switch to 'alpha' oveheat and benefit from the full effects of that massive O/H bonus and only suffer 1% module damage? Because by doing so you're almost completely removing the balancing factor of overheating so heavily. Again, there is no reason not to do this.

So id say you can only alpha overheat with a mod with full HP. But an option for over-over heat with a slightly bigger bonus with more damage could work.

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Rain6637
Simulacra and Simulation
Dracarys.
#39 - 2014-11-20 17:13:25 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:

Are you saying you can over heat normally to the point of 99% damage and then switch to 'alpha' oveheat and benefit from the full effects of that massive O/H bonus and only suffer 1% module damage?

yeah, regardless of what you did before the alpha cycle, it is guaranteed burnout after. if you want to be smart about it, anyway, yes that is the best time--at the end of its damage. 1 last volley, 1 last rep, etc.

heat could also be applied to just one stat of a module, like optimal, damage, or tracking. activated by a radial menu to select heated attribute. right now, heat is a fairly blunt operation.

limited heat could have a drawback of another attribute being reduced. say you want more optimal or falloff, and you have the target dead to rights and you don't need as much tracking.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#40 - 2014-11-20 17:14:23 UTC
How i imagine overheating is that you decide to overheat(modeled in the UI as the click of a button) and your clone begins constantly mentally telling the heat warnings to shut up. If you forget to stop overheating then thats the same as your clone forgetting. Your mods are already running at 100% capability, why would they not be? You are disabling the safety limits so there shouldn't be a 'No really Dave, you should stop that now...'.

On the other hand a simple gieger tic mechanism that increases in frequency (20kHz per % heat) . Imagine trying to stay calm as the pitch raises...much like the sonar scanner in Aliens...a very effective way to induce panic in players!