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[Rhea] Graphical Features Feedback and Discussion

First post
Author
Niiro Kallstrom
Alternative Management Solutions
#281 - 2014-12-04 17:59:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Niiro Kallstrom
[delete - double post]
Andreus Ixiris
Duty.
SE7EN-SINS
#282 - 2014-12-04 18:13:46 UTC
Niiro Kallstrom wrote:
As a result of your last post, I've changed my position on this matter entirely. We should be able to wear our goggles as advertised!!1111!!

Good. I'm glad we could come to an agreement!

Niiro Kallstrom wrote:
I've also just remembered why I visited this thread in the first place. The Machariel does indeed look very faded and flat. I agree with the notion that PBR should be delayed till the Art team can get it working optimally.

The problem with the current implementation of PBR is that it only looks good when light's reflecting off shiny or gloss surfaces. When anything else is involved - matte shaders are a particular pain in the neck - it just looks drab and flat. Almost all the standard-issue Caldari ships have this problem, as do a lot of Minmatar vessels. The green areas of Gallente ships also suffer from being drab and visually unappealing - at the very least, the vibrancy of Gallente green needs to be rejiggered so the ships retain their pre-PBR visual appeal.

The issue is that PBR actually does exactly what it says on the tin - it's Physically Based Rendering and the problem is that it does accurately reflect how these ships would look under realistic lighting. The problem is that the current ships (apart from the possible exception of the new Blackbird and Incursus models) weren't designed with PBR in mind - they were designed with the universal "vague shine" that marked EVE's V3 graphics pre-PBR. PBR hasn't changed the way the ships are coloured - it's accurately simulating the way light would reflect off those surfaces. It isn't that PBR has made the ships look boring, it's that the ships were technically always boring but the less advanced lighting model we used to use covered it up by inaccurately representing what the ships look like. To solve the problem we're experiencing, CCP don't need to fix PBR - they need to reskin the ships and redo the shaders.

The problem is that CCP has already decided it's going to release PBR in its current state on December 9th, and like certain other terrible decisions, unless there's an utterly massive backlash against them, CCP won't budge. I absolutely agree that CCP needs to rethink PBR but unless you can produce a seriously compelling and very large group of people saying "don't release PBR in this state," CCP is going to release PBR in this state. This is part of a much, much larger problem with CCP consistently and intentionally disregarding the advice of their testers.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

Niiro Kallstrom
Alternative Management Solutions
#283 - 2014-12-04 18:21:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Niiro Kallstrom
Andreus Ixiris wrote:


The issue is that PBR actually does exactly what it says on the tin - it's Physically Based Rendering and the problem is that it does accurately reflect how these ships would look under realistic lighting. The problem is that the current ships (apart from the possible exception of the new Blackbird and Incursus models) weren't designed with PBR in mind - they were designed with the universal "vague shine" that marked EVE's V3 graphics pre-PBR. PBR hasn't changed the way the ships are coloured - it's accurately simulating the way light would reflect off those surfaces. It isn't that PBR has made the ships look boring, it's that the ships were technically always boring but the less advanced lighting model we used to use covered it up by inaccurately representing what the ships look like. To solve the problem we're experiencing, CCP don't need to fix PBR - they need to reskin the ships and redo the shaders.

The problem is that CCP has already decided it's going to release PBR in its current state on December 9th, and like certain other terrible decisions, unless there's an utterly massive backlash against them, CCP won't budge. I absolutely agree that CCP needs to rethink PBR but unless you can produce a seriously compelling and very large group of people saying "don't release PBR in this state," CCP is going to release PBR in this state. This is part of a much, much larger problem with CCP consistently and intentionally disregarding the advice of their testers.


Yeah I agree, it's not very flattering on many of these low-res textures at all. I hope it speeds up the proccess of implementing the high resolution textures they apparently have hidden somewhere in CCP HQ. It would've made more sense to get that out of the way rather than applying fancy new PBR on old textures.
Andreus Ixiris
Duty.
SE7EN-SINS
#284 - 2014-12-04 18:37:23 UTC
Well, you see, the high-res textures are just a bigger version of my gripe about the goggles. This is a feature that CCP quite transparently has developed because they've shown it to us on multiple occasions - pretty much everything they show you at fanfest is on an EVE client running the high-res textures, and everything you see in the Jessica engine (which they use to make the cinematic trailers) is done using the high-res textures.

The high-res textures absolutely exist, and they are absolutely not being released by CCP despite the fact that there's increasing demand for them.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

Nyancat Audeles
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#285 - 2014-12-04 20:46:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Nyancat Audeles
CCP Sledgehammer wrote:


  • Asteroid/Ice Belt environment overhaul
  • STATUS: FEATURE DELAYED, STILL IN DEVELOPMENT
    We will add new lighting and particle effects to all of New Eden's asteroid belts. We hope this will add a great deal of atmosphere to belts in general and give you something nice to look around while you harvest those precious ores. We aim to have this toggle-able in the ESC menu.

These effects are phenomenal! Keep them.


CCP Sledgehammer wrote:


  • Ship Redesigns - Onyx, Eagle, Incursus, Enyo, Ishkur, Blackbird, Rook, Falcon
  • STATUS: DEPLOYED, UPDATES MADE BASED ON FEEDBACK RECEIVED
    The aforementioned Hulls have been updated with new geometry and textures.

The animations on these ships are incredible. I love them all. Don't change them.
Suggestion - give us an optional ultra hi-resolution texture pack!


CCP Sledgehammer wrote:


  • ...PHYSICALLY BASED RENDERING!
  • STATUS: DEPLOYED, UPDATES MADE BASED ON FEEDBACK RECEIVED
    We have revamped our shader technology to better represent different materials on ships (think shinier shine, matter matte, dirtier dirt). As a result of this, we had to revamp essentially all ships (exclduing T3s) in the game and rework them for this new system. We also standardised how ships within a faction are shaded, so all base Amarrian vessels will now have the same golds and tans, all Carthum ships the same reds and golds, for instance.]


Oh. My. God. This is amazing. I fired up the Punisher in my hangar and I was absolutely blown away by the quality of this, the lighting, bloom, and detail! One of my favorite new features! This is incredible!.
Suggestion - maybe add a lens flare slider? I love lens flare, and want more!


STARMAP IS AWESOME AND I LOVE THE SOUNDS ON IT
MODERN THEME Correction - ship variant support not added. Eg. a Curse, despite being silver and blue, shows up as traditional Amarr colors (gold) on the adaptive theme setting.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#286 - 2014-12-04 22:08:21 UTC
Cassie Celestis wrote:
It has the potential to look epic (gief HiRes textures please)

Yes, but how many expansions do we have to "tough it out" before PBR rendering becomes epic?

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Andreus Ixiris
Duty.
SE7EN-SINS
#287 - 2014-12-04 22:14:00 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Cassie Celestis wrote:
It has the potential to look epic (gief HiRes textures please)

Yes, but how many expansions do we have to "tough it out" before PBR rendering becomes epic?

If you want to make a change, you have to get enough people onboard to stop CCP implementing something. Trust me, it'll need to be a pretty big movement - CCP have an ugly habit of ignoring their testers and then pretending to be confused as to why things have a poor reception.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

Inir Ishtori
Perkone
Caldari State
#288 - 2014-12-04 22:20:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Inir Ishtori
I checked Abaddon earlier today, it looks much better than before now that its hull got a better looking structure. There is a much better feel for the volume of the ship, it certainly feels "more 3D" compared to the earlier flatter looks.
Yet still, the base texture will probably need a very thorough rework at some point, because it looks very low rez and full of artifacts if you just zoom a bit into the ship.

Here is a view where it is looking much improved:
http://abload.de/img/2014.12.04.17.09.141azux.png
http://abload.de/img/2014.12.04.17.09.068al06.png

Here also in space, much better surface structure than before:
http://abload.de/img/2014.12.04.17.04.26inlu5.png

And here what is becoming more obvious when you start zooming in:
http://abload.de/img/2014.12.04.17.05.45z9lhf.png
http://abload.de/img/2014.12.04.17.05.3552zlv.png
This is visible not only at full zoom.

Another small detail that irks me a little bit about the Abaddon is that the rows of lights on both sides of the ship towards its end are basically swallowed by the reflections of gold plating around them. Feels like an unnecessary loss of another detail.

Looking at other ships i suspect that many of them would look somewhat messy if they featured a bright hull like the Amarr battleship line.

On the other hand, the segmented gold plating on the top of the Apocalypse is pretty boss now, gold and shiny with the new rendering, much better than on TQ imo.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#289 - 2014-12-04 22:31:34 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
If you want to make a change, you have to get enough people onboard to stop CCP implementing something. Trust me, it'll need to be a pretty big movement - CCP have an ugly habit of ignoring their testers and then pretending to be confused as to why things have a poor reception.

I've done everything short of flying to Iceland and picketing outside CCP headquarters. When CCP devs stop posting in a thread it's usually a good indication that they've buried their heads in the sand...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Andreus Ixiris
Duty.
SE7EN-SINS
#290 - 2014-12-04 22:47:47 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
I've done everything short of flying to Iceland and picketing outside CCP headquarters. When CCP devs stop posting in a thread it's usually a good indication that they've buried their heads in the sand...

Welcome to my world since early 2011, buddy. CCP outright deleted a post of mine pointing out that they don't listen to their testers and giving examples of how this behaviour has come back to bite them in the ass.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#291 - 2014-12-04 23:53:55 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Welcome to my world since early 2011, buddy. CCP outright deleted a post of mine pointing out that they don't listen to their testers and giving examples of how this behaviour has come back to bite them in the ass.

Apparently there are a lot more beaches in Iceland than I realized...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Xindi Kraid
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#292 - 2014-12-05 00:11:12 UTC
My thought is that PBR as a system looks great.

The problem is it hasn't been properly taken advantage of yet. The ships that look drab aren't that way because of PBR specifically, it's because the ships themselves could use some work. it's these textures that need to be worked on rather than the system itself.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#293 - 2014-12-05 01:26:20 UTC
Xindi Kraid wrote:
The problem is it hasn't been properly taken advantage of yet. The ships that look drab aren't that way because of PBR specifically, it's because the ships themselves could use some work. it's these textures that need to be worked on rather than the system itself.

None of us disagree with this assessment. Our point has been that until the textures are updated (hi-res?) and tweaked to look ideal under PBR, it shouldn't be released as it will be perceived as a step back.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Murkar Omaristos
The Alabaster Albatross
Unreasonable Bastards
#294 - 2014-12-05 06:11:33 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
[quote=Xindi Kraid] until the textures are updated (hi-res?) and tweaked to look ideal under PBR, it shouldn't be released as it will be perceived as a step back.


What he said.
Ransu Asanari
Perkone
Caldari State
#295 - 2014-12-05 06:48:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Ransu Asanari
Someone on Reddit posted a comparison album of ships on Singularity being rendered with the new Physical Based Rendering to the current rendering. I couldn't believe the differences could make the ships look so much worse, so I opened up a Singularity client and a Tranquility client to compare side by side in full rendering.

I want to make it very clear that that this new rendering is doing a HUGE disservice to a lot of ships, mostly the Minmatar ones. PLEASE take another look at this, and how to fix them with the new rendering. I don't want to see these changes on Tranquility before they are addressed.


  • The new Fenrir looks horrible. The panels look way too clean, much lighter in color, matte, don't gleam, and have less detail than they used to. The interior lighting doesn't shine out as strongly as it used to, which gave a nice contrast. The whole thing looks like its made of plastic Lego blocks.
  • The new Prowler arguably looks better... I'd say not horrible, as the changes are more distinctive. The spinning section is brighter and you can see more detail. The faded red paint on the edges gleam and have a lot more detail than the old model, which was just rusted metal with no visible detail. My only complaint is the flat unpainted sections are too clean, and don't have that dirty rust look that you expect on Minmatar ships.
  • It looks like we've lost a LOT of detail on the Raven Navy Issue. The digital camoflage being used was a lot finer with smaller squares. The entire thing looks a lot softer now, with patches of grey - but its not what i'd actually classify as camoflage. Bring the old version back!
  • The Machariel looks a lot worse - the dark red/orange lighting was more ominous on the old version. Now, its a bright orange and not nearly as distinctive as it used to be, as the entire model is so much brighter. Yes you can see the camoflage better now on the ship model, but I'm not convinced thats a good thing. It's sort of a light beige "cafe 'o lait" rather than something dark and gritty with lots of scratches and wear and tear on it. And the center rails look like they're made out of cheap plastic -matte, not shiny
  • The Barghest doesn't look too much different. It's a lot brighter and smoother (my friend commented it looked Teflon coated). The main complaint is a lot of the darker grey paint accents blend in too well and aren't visible. Some of the white paint is also similarly not visible due to the brightness increase.
  • The Daredevil had a cool dark green/steel metallic carapace thing going on. Now it is grey with some black paint streaked on it. The entire tail section has lost contrast detail. This theme is just as pronounced on the Vigilant hull. Can't say I'm a fan.
  • The Damnation now has a white steel contrast to it, where it used to be a softer gold. This wouldn't be a big problem, except that with Heavy Assault Missiles which are red launchers, the entire thing just looks weird now.


Some of the ships do look better:


  • Most of the Amarr ships work well with these changes, as they've been showcased. So do the Gallente.
  • Most of the Caldari ships don't look that much changed. A little cleaner, but that works in their favor. If anything I'd ask that since most of the ships are unpainted gunmetal, that they should actually look like metal. Some of the darker grey accent paint, and the blue lighting don't come out as strong.
  • The Celestis has a much cleaner metallic look. The silver accents now actually gleam like metal armor and that contrasts nicely against the green.
  • Originally I had a problem with some of the Gallente ships with a bronze/copper accent, where it didn't shine like metal, but looked matte like plastic. I think that's been fixed, looking at the Phobos and Lachesis.
Xindi Kraid
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#296 - 2014-12-05 07:39:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Xindi Kraid
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Xindi Kraid wrote:
The problem is it hasn't been properly taken advantage of yet. The ships that look drab aren't that way because of PBR specifically, it's because the ships themselves could use some work. it's these textures that need to be worked on rather than the system itself.

None of us disagree with this assessment. Our point has been that until the textures are updated (hi-res?) and tweaked to look ideal under PBR, it shouldn't be released as it will be perceived as a step back.
Fair enough.

I don't know where hi-res textures fit in to that, though. The detail level is at least workable at present; it's the combinations of color and shininess in general, and adding more pixel won't fix that, so the high resolution textures CCP has in house would probably need to be dumped anyways.

I do, definitely want to see higher resolution textures and even possibly higher poly models, but that's tangential to the issue here. I would also add that while CCP really should hurry up ad add these to the game, it should probably be optional since delivering that high level of graphical content could be detrimental to certain people (low bandwidth, data caps, etc.), so new textures at the current detail level are needed as well.

===
I would fully support delaying this feature till the textures can be worked out.
That is, after all, the point of the 6 week release cycle.

On a side note, I again urge CCP to put new features up for feedback earlier in the QA process. As much as I like the shorter lead times on new content, I am getting tired of CCP waiting till the last minute to make sure it's actually ready to ship. I would very much like to start seeing threads on changes coming in the release AFTER the next one (ie. 6-8 weeks n advance), rather than just have them start going up 2-3 weeks before release. like it is now.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#297 - 2014-12-05 07:48:36 UTC
Xindi Kraid wrote:
My thought is that PBR as a system looks great.

The problem is it hasn't been properly taken advantage of yet. The ships that look drab aren't that way because of PBR specifically, it's because the ships themselves could use some work. it's these textures that need to be worked on rather than the system itself.

Well, then CCP should put some work into the textures themselves before releasing a new rendering system, which makes many ships look worse because of inappropriate and unsuitable textures. Wasn't CCP talking about a "standard of quality that we should expect" from them in another official thread just this week, where they are announcing the removal of a half-finished and not maintainable feature? Roll There is basically no difference to this and this here is not the standard of quality we expect from CCP.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#298 - 2014-12-05 09:22:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Xindi Kraid wrote:
I don't know where hi-res textures fit in to that, though. The detail level is at least workable at present; it's the combinations of color and shininess in general, and adding more pixel won't fix that, so the high resolution textures CCP has in house would probably need to be dumped anyways.

With the current setup, there's a lot more shadowing and diffuse lighting so the standard low-res textures are more subtle. With PBR, everything is brighter and sharper - so the differences are now more glaring.

Ransu Asanari wrote:
Some of the ships do look better:

Yes, I'll grant you that the Amarr and Gallente ships look better. Minmatar and Caldari ships are somewhat worse for the wear, but Angels, Sansha and Serpentis ships have been absolutely massacred. SoE and Mordus Legion come off neutral (with some loss of detail), and Blood Raiders and Guristas are muted/flat.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Petra Hakaari
Stalking Wolfpack
#299 - 2014-12-05 10:09:09 UTC
my phantasm !!!!! CryCryCryCryCryCryCryCryCryCryCryCryCryCryCryCry


what did the phantasm do to you devs to turn it into a pile of duck diarrhea? CryCryCryCryCryCryCryCry



that colour..... diarrhea..... UghUghUghUghUghUghUghCryCryCryCryCryCryCryCryCryCry

Because tities .

Petra Hakaari
Stalking Wolfpack
#300 - 2014-12-05 15:30:42 UTC
Theres a dev response regarding PBR on my thread here https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=386971

Because tities .