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Crime & Punishment

 
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Are Skiffs overpowered ? Discuss.......
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Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#41 - 2014-11-17 18:19:13 UTC
I'm confused. There are plenty of groups, many posting in this thread that are able to drop Freighters, often empty without trouble. Certainly those same groups could tear up some skiffs without trouble.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#42 - 2014-11-17 18:31:19 UTC
Derath Ellecon wrote:
I'm confused. There are plenty of groups, many posting in this thread that are able to drop Freighters, often empty without trouble. Certainly those same groups could tear up some skiffs without trouble.


The difference is scale and pay. Miner ganking was supposed to be small scale ganking, something solo/small groups of people could do, while freighter ganking is large scale; the same comparison works for pay.

The problem that occurred is that ccp somewhere decided they don't value pvp minded players hence the focus on highsec buffs.

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Tengu Grib
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#43 - 2014-11-17 18:32:16 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
The solution to everything is to remove auto repeat from mining equipment. It prevents afk mining, makes bot detection easier and makes the hulk more attractive.


And has virtually no affect on people who are actually at the keyboard, even if they are using ISboxer, I actually like that suggestion.

Rabble Rabble Rabble

Praise James, Supreme Protector of High Sec.
Meilandra Vanderganken
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#44 - 2014-11-17 18:35:18 UTC
Bronson Hughes wrote:
Meilandra Vanderganken wrote:
Something like 10-15. Several times what it would take to down a well tanked mack, let alone a Hulk. That's asuming max or very near max skilled catas and max or near max tanking skills on the target. So in reality your mileage will vary.

That was my point. Even though the tank on the Hulk and the Mack may look very different when compared side-by-side, the difference between them is pretty small when compared to a well-tanked Skiff.

Ah statistics, you can slice 'm anyway you want, for instance, if we take the hulk as base tank, the Mack has some 30% more tank.

Lol
Meilandra Vanderganken
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#45 - 2014-11-17 18:47:26 UTC
Bethan Le Troix wrote:


That many. Wow! No wonder he is fitting such expensive modules.
Like I said, it's a 'get out of gank free'-card, while still being good at yield (on par with mack), having big enough ore hold to cycle your miners 5+ times before you have to drop it into your hauler, so it's semi-afk-able, it's fast, has a small sig radius and has a 50% drone damage bonus. Hell you could run lvl 4 missions in the thing probably :P

It's just too much on one ship. My preffered solution would be a drastic cut on the yield like I said, something like 2/3 of mack. It can have all it's other bonusses and attributes (which in my book are also a bit high) but as it stands now, the Skiff is a no brainer.

Nerfing it's ore bay is not going to change that since everyone and his dog mines with a hauling alt.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#46 - 2014-11-17 18:49:42 UTC
While you can't actually run L4s in a Skiff, that's not hyperbole by much.

I have run L3s in one before, shortly after the drone damage buff.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Fret Thiesant
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#47 - 2014-11-17 18:52:30 UTC
Maybe I am bad at maths but a crew of catalysts should be able to kill one and still come out ahead isk wise. Don't see the issue.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#48 - 2014-11-17 18:56:36 UTC
Bad at maths is right.

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Tengu Grib
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#49 - 2014-11-17 19:02:01 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
While you can't actually run L4s in a Skiff, that's not hyperbole by much.

I have run L3s in one before, shortly after the drone damage buff.


Myself and some friends are still talking about taking a fleet of procurers with DDM's in the lows and seeing how much stuff we can wreck before we die. (We're guessing quite a bit)

Rabble Rabble Rabble

Praise James, Supreme Protector of High Sec.
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#50 - 2014-11-17 19:09:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Bronson Hughes
Tengu Grib wrote:
Myself and some friends are still talking about taking a fleet of procurers with DDM's in the lows and seeing how much stuff we can wreck before we die. (We're guessing quite a bit)

Suitcase & DDA in the lows; point, MASB, T2 Invul, & small cap boosters in the mids; small remote shield booster in the high slot; rigs to suit.

Tell me a well-flown blob of those would be hard as hell to kill while still packing respectable drone firepower.


EDIT: Would, not wouldn't. Details matter dammit.

Relatively Notorious By Association

My Many Misadventures

I predicted FAUXs
Meilandra Vanderganken
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#51 - 2014-11-17 19:11:42 UTC
Bronson Hughes wrote:
Tengu Grib wrote:
Myself and some friends are still talking about taking a fleet of procurers with DDM's in the lows and seeing how much stuff we can wreck before we die. (We're guessing quite a bit)

Suitcase & DDA in the lows; point, MASB, T2 Invul, & small cap boosters in the mids; small remote shield booster in the high slot; rigs to suit.

Tell me a well-flown blob of those wouldn't be hard as hell to kill while still packing respectable drone firepower.


It would be hard to kill and pack respectable firepower and it's a great mining ship too. Hence my statement that is just too much on a single ship.


Black Pedro
Mine.
#52 - 2014-11-17 19:13:20 UTC
Fret Thiesant wrote:
Maybe I am bad at maths but a crew of catalysts should be able to kill one and still come out ahead isk wise. Don't see the issue.

Issue one: the fact that it is so much better than the Mackinaw in almost every respect means that there is less game play choice in selecting your ship. Skiff is the correct choice in nearly all (highsec) situations.
Issue two: you are wrong. There is no way a T2 fit Skiff will drop enough loot to cover the cost of the 4-10 T2 gank Catalysts needed to pop it.

I am fine with issue 2 if there is some trade off for this economic protection. Like significantly less yield than the Hulk and Mack for example to miners have to make a choice.

The 8 Golden Rules of Eve

Why Do They Gank?
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#53 - 2014-11-17 19:18:43 UTC
Meilandra Vanderganken wrote:
It would be hard to kill and pack respectable firepower and it's a great mining ship too. Hence my statement that is just too much on a single ship.

It'd be overpowered if it could do all those things at once. Without remote reps, the fit I proposed becomes considerably less tanky, and if you drop the remote shield booster for a strip miner or ice harvester, it'd have an absolutely anemic yield due to the lack of mining upgrades. I see no problem there.

It's like the 'Geddon. The Geddon can be a good laser boat, or a good RR boat, or a good cap warfare boat, or a good missile boat, but it can't be all those things at the same time.

Relatively Notorious By Association

My Many Misadventures

I predicted FAUXs
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#54 - 2014-11-17 19:28:27 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
Derath Ellecon wrote:
I'm confused. There are plenty of groups, many posting in this thread that are able to drop Freighters, often empty without trouble. Certainly those same groups could tear up some skiffs without trouble.


The difference is scale and pay. Miner ganking was supposed to be small scale ganking, something solo/small groups of people could do, while freighter ganking is large scale; the same comparison works for pay.

The problem that occurred is that ccp somewhere decided they don't value pvp minded players hence the focus on highsec buffs.


So I'm not an expert on ganking but it seems like it takes what around 20 catalysts to kill a freighter? So comparing tanks it seems it should take maybe what like 5 to kill a skiff? Sounds small enough scale to me.

And seriously how many mining vessels are there to choose from? (seriously, i don't feel like counting), and there is what this one that can actually be tanked well enough to be safer?
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#55 - 2014-11-17 19:37:10 UTC
Derath Ellecon wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
Derath Ellecon wrote:
I'm confused. There are plenty of groups, many posting in this thread that are able to drop Freighters, often empty without trouble. Certainly those same groups could tear up some skiffs without trouble.


The difference is scale and pay. Miner ganking was supposed to be small scale ganking, something solo/small groups of people could do, while freighter ganking is large scale; the same comparison works for pay.

The problem that occurred is that ccp somewhere decided they don't value pvp minded players hence the focus on highsec buffs.


So I'm not an expert on ganking but it seems like it takes what around 20 catalysts to kill a freighter? So comparing tanks it seems it should take maybe what like 5 to kill a skiff? Sounds small enough scale to me.

And seriously how many mining vessels are there to choose from? (seriously, i don't feel like counting), and there is what this one that can actually be tanked well enough to be safer?


The fit is dependent upon the number of people participating, the less participating the more expensive the gank. Min/max this and you get 40 t1 catalysts for a freighter.

Solo/small scale is subjective aside from the solo part. <=3 is in the range.

After the changes all of them can be tanked sufficiently but, the age old problem is no one is ever willing to give up yield to do it.

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Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#56 - 2014-11-17 19:44:12 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
Derath Ellecon wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
Derath Ellecon wrote:
I'm confused. There are plenty of groups, many posting in this thread that are able to drop Freighters, often empty without trouble. Certainly those same groups could tear up some skiffs without trouble.


The difference is scale and pay. Miner ganking was supposed to be small scale ganking, something solo/small groups of people could do, while freighter ganking is large scale; the same comparison works for pay.

The problem that occurred is that ccp somewhere decided they don't value pvp minded players hence the focus on highsec buffs.


So I'm not an expert on ganking but it seems like it takes what around 20 catalysts to kill a freighter? So comparing tanks it seems it should take maybe what like 5 to kill a skiff? Sounds small enough scale to me.

And seriously how many mining vessels are there to choose from? (seriously, i don't feel like counting), and there is what this one that can actually be tanked well enough to be safer?


The fit is dependent upon the number of people participating, the less participating the more expensive the gank. Min/max this and you get 40 t1 catalysts for a freighter.

Solo/small scale is subjective aside from the solo part. <=3 is in the range.

After the changes all of them can be tanked sufficiently but, the age old problem is no one is ever willing to give up yield to do it.


Well I was just going off KB, which there were plenty of ganks of freighters with 19-22 Catalysts, which seemed largely T2 fit. So based on the damage done, and then looking at the average damage done to a skiff, seems like 5 should do it.

So there are plenty of miners that can be easily soloed in a single catalyst. Some that probably need 2-3, and one that might take 5. Seems like there is plenty for the small gank to choose from.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#57 - 2014-11-17 19:51:26 UTC
Derath Ellecon wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
Derath Ellecon wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
Derath Ellecon wrote:
I'm confused. There are plenty of groups, many posting in this thread that are able to drop Freighters, often empty without trouble. Certainly those same groups could tear up some skiffs without trouble.


The difference is scale and pay. Miner ganking was supposed to be small scale ganking, something solo/small groups of people could do, while freighter ganking is large scale; the same comparison works for pay.

The problem that occurred is that ccp somewhere decided they don't value pvp minded players hence the focus on highsec buffs.


So I'm not an expert on ganking but it seems like it takes what around 20 catalysts to kill a freighter? So comparing tanks it seems it should take maybe what like 5 to kill a skiff? Sounds small enough scale to me.

And seriously how many mining vessels are there to choose from? (seriously, i don't feel like counting), and there is what this one that can actually be tanked well enough to be safer?


The fit is dependent upon the number of people participating, the less participating the more expensive the gank. Min/max this and you get 40 t1 catalysts for a freighter.

Solo/small scale is subjective aside from the solo part. <=3 is in the range.

After the changes all of them can be tanked sufficiently but, the age old problem is no one is ever willing to give up yield to do it.


Well I was just going off KB, which there were plenty of ganks of freighters with 19-22 Catalysts, which seemed largely T2 fit. So based on the damage done, and then looking at the average damage done to a skiff, seems like 5 should do it.

So there are plenty of miners that can be easily soloed in a single catalyst. Some that probably need 2-3, and one that might take 5. Seems like there is plenty for the small gank to choose from.


Seems like is quite a stretch to reality.

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Jur Tissant
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#58 - 2014-11-17 20:24:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Jur Tissant
Are you suggesting that you should be able to suicide gank a Skiff with a single destroyer/cruiser? The Skiff should be a tough nut for small ships to crack even in low/null. It should be nigh impossible to beat with anything short of a gank-fit BC/BS in high-sec. That's the whole point - safety at the expense of a respectable price tag and mining yield.

If you want to take down a Skiff, bring a bunch of friends.
Meilandra Vanderganken
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#59 - 2014-11-17 20:25:51 UTC
Derath Ellecon wrote:


Well I was just going off KB, which there were plenty of ganks of freighters with 19-22 Catalysts, which seemed largely T2 fit. So based on the damage done, and then looking at the average damage done to a skiff, seems like 5 should do it.

So there are plenty of miners that can be easily soloed in a single catalyst. Some that probably need 2-3, and one that might take 5. Seems like there is plenty for the small gank to choose from.
Any skiff that cannot tank 5 t2 catas in a 0.5 system is poorly tanked. Against antimatter/void a (near) max tanked skiff has around 140k effective hitpoints, and that's before any squad commander and/or orca shield boosts are applied (which in nearly any mining fleet will have at least some of those boosts).

If your math says otherwise, I suggest you go redo your calculations :P

La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#60 - 2014-11-17 20:27:24 UTC
Jur Tissant wrote:
Are you suggesting that you should be able to suicide gank a Skiff with a single destroyer/cruiser? The Skiff should be a tough nut for small ships to crack even in low/null. It should be nigh impossible to beat with anything short of a gank-fit BC/BS in high-sec. That's the whole point - safety at the expense of a respectable price tag and mining yield.

If you want to take down a Skiff, bring a bunch of friends.


If it's untanked yes, the rest of your post shows you don't know much about ganking at all.

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