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Core probe scanning speed improvement.
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Ab'del Abu
Atlantis Ascendant
#41 - 2014-11-16 14:05:19 UTC
Lloyd Roses wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:

Press the button and add them together, actually time it, with max skills, minimum 10 maximum 15 (will test thera today possibly more) that is the delay between each sweep.


You are aware that Thera is a little special in that you make 200AU warps to the next signature, besides the curently 60% of sigs hanging around the sun. Nearly all wormholes got significantly less than 50AU radius, so it really isn't the same.


Also everything in thera seems to have signature size < 10 ...
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#42 - 2014-11-16 14:05:55 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Lloyd Roses wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:

Press the button and add them together, actually time it, with max skills, minimum 10 maximum 15 (will test thera today possibly more) that is the delay between each sweep.


You are aware that Thera is a little special in that you make 200AU warps to the next signature, besides the curently 60% of sigs hanging around the sun. Nearly all wormholes got significantly less than 50AU radius, so it really isn't the same.


Yes, I have not tested on thera yet! I would expect that to take a while longer.

If so that would make the original proposal even more relevent.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#43 - 2014-11-16 14:08:54 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Ab'del Abu wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Interesting, I tested on tq before posting the numbers, with a max skilled ( no implants ) character, and a 4x4x4x4 toon, and on sisi with a maxed up in every way toon.

I was using a helios for both,

Trying to work out where the differences are.
I'll get on sisi and try different scanning ships, there's got to be a reason for it. Are You using Sisters core probes too ?

Working on the maths, the base scan time can theoretically be brought down to under five seconds, ( some disagreement/confusion apparently as to how they stack) but the probes have a (warping) delay even when sat right on the sig. There also seems to be a delay before they even start, However it is calculated, however it is displayed, the time I get is at best in the order of ten seconds from pressing the analyse button to getting a return from the system. Could there be network effects?

All this is why I am trying to work with real world returns, rather than theoretical calculations. When someone reports their time to two figures of decimals, it is clearly theoretical figures being discussed not tested results. I just want to conform that your 6 seconds is actually experienced?

The original proposal still stands, the scanning delay is still an unneccesary mechanic with the increase in signatures that exist in all space now. Those delays, still add up whatever the numbers.


EFT claims that combat scanner probes have both faster warp speed (+7.5 AU) and shorter flight time (- 3 seconds), that may explain your issue. There is literally nothing that you can't probe in w-space with combat probes, so just roll with them ;)


Ah, that is really interesting, thank you.
We all can resolve just about anything at .5 so if that reflects in testing, it seems combat probes will be the recommended tool for every scanning job.

I am not at a pc at the moment, do sisters combat probes show the same speed boost?

Your reply is really encouraging, thank you, I was beginning to wonder why I ever tried to discuss this on the forums. Your reply has made all that grief worthwhile.

Edit: original proposal still stands, core probes logically should be the tool of choice for scanning signatures. And any artificially introduced delay should be significantly lower on core probes, not greater.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
StudleyManiac
Enigma Expanse
ENIGMA DOMAIN ALLIANCE
#44 - 2014-11-16 18:48:59 UTC
Simple little test here...

Open probe window
Launch probes
Hit scan button (watch the Probe Time left)

Whether you move probes or not you still have a 2.5-3 second delay while the probes are "statused" as moving
(if you do not move probes) you still have this delay
This is before the pretty animation (about 6-7 seconds)

That is what I believe Epicurus is concerned about. Time from press to results takes about 10 seconds.


did some rough calculations
Sister Core probes and Sisters Combats 11 seconds from Scan to results.

Where are people getting this 6.9 second results....
Alundil
Rolled Out
#45 - 2014-11-16 18:57:42 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
scanners, (pretty much all of us) are finding it all a little overwhelming and just too much of a good thing.

The time taken to scan down a chain has grown exponentially, and the astrometrics aquisition skill is literaly a drop in the great ocean in terms of help.


I disagree. Strongly.

I'm right behind you
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#46 - 2014-11-16 19:47:02 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Alundil wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
scanners, (pretty much all of us) are finding it all a little overwhelming and just too much of a good thing.

The time taken to scan down a chain has grown exponentially, and the astrometrics aquisition skill is literaly a drop in the great ocean in terms of help.


I disagree. Strongly.


That is quite reasonable, I am naturally referencing our experience, and I would not expect to talk for everyone. And not for you as I have not spoken to you. That is clear to all the readers now, glad there is no misunderstanding.

I am sure however you find that when there are more signatures that takes longer than if there were a few. I am glad it causes you no discomfort.

However this proposal is not about whether different people have different experiences, that is completely outside the frame of the proposal.

The proposal is a simple and limited one to reduce the artificial scan delay on core scanner probes to balance out the effect of the increase in the number of signatures.

You are perfectly within your rights to disagree with that as well.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#47 - 2014-11-16 21:16:39 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Alundil wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
scanners, (pretty much all of us) are finding it all a little overwhelming and just too much of a good thing.

The time taken to scan down a chain has grown exponentially, and the astrometrics aquisition skill is literaly a drop in the great ocean in terms of help.

I disagree. Strongly.

That is quite reasonable, I am naturally referencing our experience, and I would not expect to talk for everyone. And not for you as I have not spoken to you. That is clear to all the readers now, glad there is no misunderstanding.

youve been saying things that imply everyone is having the same issues as you. this is speaking for everyone, or at least trying to.
given that scanning a chain nowadays is FAR easier and faster than it used to be, i dont even get where your premise comes from.

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

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epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#48 - 2014-11-16 22:20:00 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Jack Miton wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Alundil wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
scanners, (pretty much all of us) are finding it all a little overwhelming and just too much of a good thing.

The time taken to scan down a chain has grown exponentially, and the astrometrics aquisition skill is literaly a drop in the great ocean in terms of help.

I disagree. Strongly.

That is quite reasonable, I am naturally referencing our experience, and I would not expect to talk for everyone. And not for you as I have not spoken to you. That is clear to all the readers now, glad there is no misunderstanding.

youve been saying things that imply everyone is having the same issues as you. this is speaking for everyone, or at least trying to.
given that scanning a chain nowadays is FAR easier and faster than it used to be, i dont even get where your premise comes from.

I do not know when in the past you are referring to, I assume the deep and distant past. Pre oddysey?
Anyway Jack, the proposal is a simple one, I gave some background, and tried to answer some points, and as expected it got somewhat off target, with plenty of bad noob, elite do it better etc etc.

All that is meaningless as the proposal is a simple one.
I doubt you can argue that more wormholes mean longer chains and more to scan and more signatures introduced mean more to scan as well.

Quote:
The proposal is simple it is limited to the request that the artificial scanning delay existing on core (not requested for combat probes) scanning probes is reduced to balance the increase in signatures in all areas of space.


But you may believe that with your great experience and perfect skills that you somehow are exempt from the equation more signatures=more time.

You are welcome to that opinion.
Do not be suprised when others look on that conclusion differently.

Edit: just to clarify, I make no claim to speaking for anyone, my comments simply reflect the experiences I witness, and the effects on those I know and those I have discussed this with. I extrapolate from this that I would expect the same mechanics to apply to many, but it appears that there are those who for whatever reason are somehow exempt from the daily reality as experienced by others. I cannot comment on their daily tasks and experiences. So I don't.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#49 - 2014-11-17 13:10:27 UTC
Does anyone remember the good old days when you launched a prob in a direction, got a fuzzy picture, warped in a little closer and launched a new probe of higher resolution and shorter range toward the fuzzy picture? Do you remember that once a probe was launched it was never to return. Do you remember there were about 10 different probes that you had to sort through to get the right probe for the job? Do you remember that only 1 in 100 pilots could even get their brain around scanning? Do you remember the extremely high value of a pilot that could scan? Shocked

Are we really arguing that 15 seconds / sweep is too long and should be reduced by 4 seconds because it takes too long (with the supporting evidence that there are more things to find easily in 15 seconds)? Roll

I'm old, I'm kind of fed up w/ you 'me me me' and 'now now now' kiddies in general. I'm coming to terms with it and being as understand as possible, but sweet mother of pearl this is just too much. I truely am sorry you lose 3.4 seconds (or whatever) of your precious life per scan, but in the bigger scheme of things you must understand... it's not that important. It's not broken and it surely doesn't need fixed.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#50 - 2014-11-17 13:38:38 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Does anyone remember the good old days when you launched a prob in a direction, got a fuzzy picture, warped in a little closer and launched a new probe of higher resolution and shorter range toward the fuzzy picture? Do you remember that once a probe was launched it was never to return. Do you remember there were about 10 different probes that you had to sort through to get the right probe for the job? Do you remember that only 1 in 100 pilots could even get their brain around scanning? Do you remember the extremely high value of a pilot that could scan? Shocked

Are we really arguing that 15 seconds / sweep is too long and should be reduced by 4 seconds because it takes too long (with the supporting evidence that there are more things to find easily in 15 seconds)? Roll

I'm old, I'm kind of fed up w/ you 'me me me' and 'now now now' kiddies in general. I'm coming to terms with it and being as understand as possible, but sweet mother of pearl this is just too much. I truely am sorry you lose 3.4 seconds (or whatever) of your precious life per scan, but in the bigger scheme of things you must understand... it's not that important. It's not broken and it surely doesn't need fixed.


The proposal is actually much much simpler than that

The proposal is simple it is limited to the request that the artificial scanning delay existing on core (not requested for combat probes) scanning probes is reduced to balance the increase in signatures in all areas of space.

The time, the artificial delay is about 10-11 seconds, and sometimes a little more.

There's beeps, there's sweeps there's warbles all very fine, but add them up and that's what you get. Press the button and try for yourself.

Now that seems so very little doesn't it? now add that up. let's say 10 sigs a hole, three passes a sig if you actually want to know what they are, not guessing, and not just blasting through looking for leet stuff to do. So 30 passes, now lets take a chain 3 deep each one splitting into three, thats 41 holes, and just three deep! so that = 41*30 thats 1230 passes, times 10 seconds that is 12300 seconds.

That's 3.42 hours just scan delay!

and only 3 holes deep.

"But share the load" I hear you say! "That's too much for one person to do every day, maybe multiple times a day, They cannot keep that up!" Quite right, wasting around 1.25 hours each for three people is much less annoying, Isn't it?..... isn't itQuestionRoll

And that does not count, warping, pos scanning, moving your probes, Bookmarking, updating the mapper, or ANY other function.

Now, let's be the most elite, fantastic, amazingballs, scanner who ever existed and consistently get every signature in 2 passes. (not even vaguely likely, but there must be some who claim to be here)

that's 41x20 times 10 seconds

Wow much better only 2.3 hours wasted, waiting for that artificial delay, but hey! we didn't want those hours anyway.Roll

So the proposal is a request for a QOL improvement to reduce significantly the artificial scan delays on core probes.

It does not sound so silly now does it?

Of course getting someone else to do your scanning is also an option.
That Seems to be the favoured choice.

so tl;dr It is nice if EVERYONE can actually get out and enjoy the fun a little more often.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Teleil Zoomers
Royal Sphynx Ltd
#51 - 2014-11-17 14:11:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Teleil Zoomers
edit. say what now? tldr

ahahaha

lets get rid of time spent in warp and while jumping through gates while we're at it.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#52 - 2014-11-17 14:18:18 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Teleil Zoomers wrote:
say what now? you want to be able to completely scan down 41 wh in under 3 hours?

ahahaha

lets get rid of time spent in warp and while jumping through gates while we're at it.


Edit reply before the Ninja edit.

No, it takes a lot longer than that, that is just the artificial delay.
now add to that, jumping, warping, bookmarking, updating bookmarks, repositioning probes , finding POS warping to them at range avoiding bubbles and traps, setting up safes, updating the mapper, and all the other little tasks.

The scan delays are the smallest part of it all, but Damn, do they add up.
Hence the request for a tiny QOL improvement, that just makes things a little quicker, not easier.

Give wormhole life a try, there's a lot of good corporations, just make sure you find one thats not looking for a replacement scan monkey as they have broken the other ones.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Teleil Zoomers
Royal Sphynx Ltd
#53 - 2014-11-17 14:30:00 UTC
scanning is fine. i don't agree that they should make it easier
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#54 - 2014-11-17 14:31:27 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Teleil Zoomers wrote:
scanning is fine. i don't agree that they should make it easier


Nor do I.

I suggest you read the proposal you are commenting on?

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Teleil Zoomers
Royal Sphynx Ltd
#55 - 2014-11-17 14:33:11 UTC
faster is easier. thats what i take away from your wall of splurge
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#56 - 2014-11-17 14:36:38 UTC
Teleil Zoomers wrote:
faster is easier. thats what i take away from your wall of splurge


I am sure the important points you make will be taken into consideration.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
MooMooDachshundCow
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#57 - 2014-11-17 14:52:14 UTC
As a primary scanner I agree with this idea. There's really no reason not to make core probes a bit faster that I can think of. You still have to do the same exact everything you just spend less time waiting on the beep booop boop scanny wave.

All this does is help wormholers get from "I want content" to "oh look - there's some content" faster.

Furthermore, by encouraging people to scan further down their chains, you're helping to bring more activity to wormholes, so the ancillary is hopefully more active pilots in space.

Who would oppose this and why? I can scan dozens of wormholes on a good day, and this change would mean we could spend more time actually doing whatever it was we were scanning for.

I'm not saying to make wormholes automatically show up or anything. They're not being turned into gates.

As an aside, I actually oppose the discovery scanner functioning - I preferred it before when you had to scan to even know there were sigs there, but things change. I think that anything that increases interaction and activity in WH space is good, and lowering the bar slightly to help people get into it is also acceptable.

This isn't a fundamental change, just a quality of life improvement.

Keep the good creative juices flowing, Epicurus.

Yeah, well, it's just like my opinion, man.
King Fu Hostile
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#58 - 2014-11-17 14:58:14 UTC
I update the mapper, warp around and make bookmarks and ignore sigs while the probes cycle, shortening the cycle time wouldn't decrease my total scan time/system. I understand your point, but the couple of minutes the cycles add up to just isn't asignificant time sink. It's not like you just sit there and wait for the cycle to finish.
MooMooDachshundCow
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#59 - 2014-11-17 15:11:34 UTC  |  Edited by: MooMooDachshundCow
King Fu Hostile wrote:
It's not like you just sit there and wait for the cycle to finish.


Actually, I'm pretty sure that's exactly what happens. Unless it's a wormhole and you have to warp to it and BM and everything, it's just "move - resize - scan - wait - wait - wait - wait - repeat"

I'm considering making a video to prove my point, but I'm not much of a videographer.

In any case, I'll be paying closer attention to this aspect over the next couple of days, and perhaps my opinion will change. However, I've been scanning everyday since before Odyssey, and have a perfect scan alt, so there may be some ranges in SP and human skills.

Yeah, well, it's just like my opinion, man.
Ab'del Abu
Atlantis Ascendant
#60 - 2014-11-17 15:21:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Ab'del Abu
epicurus ataraxia wrote:


I am not at a pc at the moment, do sisters combat probes show the same speed boost?



I just came around to testing this now. Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be a difference between combat and core scanner probes, so that theory is #fail sorry xD

On topic: I can understand why you'd want to have the results faster/immediately, sometimes I find the delay annoying too. I usually spend the time between scans with warping around/bookmarking stuff and giving input to our mapping tool. So bottom line only few time is actually "wasted".

There are indeed reasons pro keeping the delay. For example, you can't just spam-scan around, but are forced to make a sensible decision on how to position your probes.