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Save Our Clones Initiative.

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Kaaeliaa
Tyrannos Sunset
#161 - 2014-11-16 18:48:54 UTC
I think the best option at this point is to report OP for dumbassery and move on.

"Do not lift the veil. Do not show the door. Do not split the dream."
Carmen Electra
AlcoDOTTE
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#162 - 2014-11-16 18:53:39 UTC
Kaaeliaa wrote:
I think the best option at this point is to report OP for dumbassery and move on.

Vote ISD Carmen

Bacon makes us stronger
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#163 - 2014-11-16 18:54:41 UTC
man this thread is all kinds of satisfying. I don't even feel hungry anymore.

Help, I can't download EVE

President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub

PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
Kaaeliaa
Tyrannos Sunset
#164 - 2014-11-16 18:56:34 UTC
Carmen Electra wrote:
Kaaeliaa wrote:
I think the best option at this point is to report OP for dumbassery and move on.

Vote ISD Carmen


ISD?

P'sh. You're Carmen Electra. Aim higher.

#CarmenForPresident2014

"Do not lift the veil. Do not show the door. Do not split the dream."
Commissar Kate
Kesukka
#165 - 2014-11-16 19:01:30 UTC
CCP Darwin wrote:
13kr1d1 wrote:
Unezka Turigahl wrote:
Most games have one death and it is meaningless. Eve has two deaths that are both full loot-loss deaths with the possibility for a third XP death if you're forgetful. It stupid. It adds nothing. Good riddance.

And no, I've never personally lost XP. I just know stupid when I see it.


So you don't like the core of Eve gameplay. Don't wander into lowsec, you may not enjoy it.


With the caveat that I'm not a game designer, I do understand the reasoning and I'll share it.

The fundamental issue is that clone grades don't add a choice. When you are pod killed, you aren't presented with an interesting question -- "Should I upgrade my pod? How much should I upgrade it?"

Instead, you either upgrade, and protect your skill points against an inevitable further pod kill, or you don't, and suffer. One choice is so incredibly better than the other that you'll always pick it, unless you happen to forget.

Good game design isn't about punishing mere forgetfulness. It should be about presenting a meaningful choice to a player and letting them pick which way to go, with benefits to offset risk. Clone upgrade costs just don't do that -- they present a choice for which there's only one right answer.



Even the art guy knows whats up.

Also IB4TL

-k8

My Fanclub
Kaaeliaa
Tyrannos Sunset
#166 - 2014-11-16 19:02:47 UTC
And Kate for VP. <3

"Do not lift the veil. Do not show the door. Do not split the dream."
Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
#167 - 2014-11-16 19:08:42 UTC
This change is great, I'm totally rethinking how to compress my accounts to keep this guy because I'm such a space-poor peasant.

A professional astro-bastard was not available so they sent me.
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#168 - 2014-11-16 19:18:19 UTC
because lack of choice is what I started unsubbing and consolidating over.

Help, I can't download EVE

President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub

PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
13kr1d1
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#169 - 2014-11-16 19:20:19 UTC  |  Edited by: 13kr1d1
Carmen Electra wrote:
13kr1d1 wrote:
You're paying for SP greed.

What the hell is SP greed?


Wanting to catch-em-all with your ships flying and then complaining that your short sightedness ends up costing you millions of ISK for a clone update, when you can grind a billion in a few hours in nullsec anyway with all that SP backing you.

Ryomaru Reaper wrote:
I never said that it might drive away new players, I said it's easier to come into, and try different things. In this game a 3 month player is still a new player, by definition.

I actually meant that with the new system in place, people can try different fits, different tactics, without losing alot of progression in their skill training. It provides for a more fluid and dynamic gameplay, instead of a static type one, build this and that, and that's the best it can do.

When this will be in the update, you dont have to constantly lookup fits anymore, and just experiment. A stagnant game, is a soon to be dead game. Which CCP is doing a marvelous job at not doing, they're not making this game stagnant, and this game will continue. Kudos CCP.

If you want to keep this system of clone-cost-and-penalization alive, essentially you're wishing for Eve to stop existing as a growing and expanding game, ultimately keeping it stagnant.




I ran the unmbers for you.
28,000
45,500
66,500
91,000
126,000
175,000

This graduated cost encompasses from 1 million to 6 million skill points. Thats more than enough SP to specialize fully into T2 frigs or ewar and T2 and so on.


Rain6637 wrote:
because lack of choice is what I started unsubbing and consolidating over.


Blame your alliance for forcing you to gather 100 million SP and costing you more ISK every time you get podded. You had a choice when going for more SP that was going to cost you more ISK if you got podded.

Don't kid yourselves. Even the dirtiest pirates from the birth of EVE have been carebears. They use alts to bring them goods at cheap prices and safely, rather than live with consequences of their in game actions on their main, from concord to prices
Ryomaru Reaper
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#170 - 2014-11-16 19:23:52 UTC
Don't really matter what the numbers are, or what specialization you are. I never spoke about specialization into a certain aspect, I always have had the jack-of-all-trades mindset, and thus that response wasn't what I was looking for.
13kr1d1
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#171 - 2014-11-16 19:27:39 UTC
Ryomaru Reaper wrote:
Don't really matter what the numbers are, or what specialization you are. I never spoke about specialization into a certain aspect, I always have had the jack-of-all-trades mindset, and thus that response wasn't what I was looking for.



That's good for you, but in a few months you'll probably just start using an alt anyway to do specific things instead of trying to do it all on one character. Thats what everyone does eventually.

Don't kid yourselves. Even the dirtiest pirates from the birth of EVE have been carebears. They use alts to bring them goods at cheap prices and safely, rather than live with consequences of their in game actions on their main, from concord to prices
Jvpiter
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#172 - 2014-11-16 19:30:46 UTC
13kr1d1 wrote:

I ran the unmbers for you.
28,000
45,500
66,500
91,000
126,000
175,000

This graduated cost encompasses from 1 million to 6 million skill points. Thats more than enough SP to specialize fully into T2 frigs or ewar and T2 and so on.




So if people want to try other things in this vast game, you recommend they make new accounts and new pilots in order to escape the exponential costs of SP accumulation.


Your hypocrisy, I am quoting it. This is what you said in another thread.

13kr1d1 wrote:

1. An alt is another account. So you're saying pay more money to actually play the game, or maybe to carebear by avoiding risk by throwing real world money at the situation?




It feels good to be so right. I feel like that all the time.

Call me Joe.
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#173 - 2014-11-16 19:33:47 UTC
CCP Darwin wrote:
13kr1d1 wrote:
Unezka Turigahl wrote:
Most games have one death and it is meaningless. Eve has two deaths that are both full loot-loss deaths with the possibility for a third XP death if you're forgetful. It stupid. It adds nothing. Good riddance.

And no, I've never personally lost XP. I just know stupid when I see it.


So you don't like the core of Eve gameplay. Don't wander into lowsec, you may not enjoy it.


With the caveat that I'm not a game designer, I do understand the reasoning and I'll share it.

The fundamental issue is that clone grades don't add a choice. When you are pod killed, you aren't presented with an interesting question -- "Should I upgrade my pod? How much should I upgrade it?"

Instead, you either upgrade, and protect your skill points against an inevitable further pod kill, or you don't, and suffer. One choice is so incredibly better than the other that you'll always pick it, unless you happen to forget.

Good game design isn't about punishing mere forgetfulness. It should be about presenting a meaningful choice to a player and letting them pick which way to go, with benefits to offset risk. Clone upgrade costs just don't do that -- they present a choice for which there's only one right answer.

I agree the choice to get a new clone is obvious, and not good game design. But that is not the interesting choice presented by the current clones and the upgrade cost.

The meaningful choices involve what I do to avoid the cost. The cost of medical clones weighs on my other choices in the game. How I fit ships, what fights I get into, who's fleets I'm willing to join, and so on. By removing clone costs, you are removing a factor in my decision making process.

Now, on the other hand, other choices start presenting themselves. For example, I'll be more willing to go try silly stupid things, just to see what happens. Personally, I think these new choices will be better, and make for a better game. But please be aware to the others side, as I explained above.

Know a Frozen fan? Check this out

Frozen fanfiction
Jvpiter
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#174 - 2014-11-16 19:35:40 UTC
Vincent Athena wrote:

I agree the choice to get a new clone is obvious, and not good game design. But that is not the interesting choice presented by the current clones and the upgrade cost.

The meaningful choices involve what I do to avoid the cost. The cost of medical clones weighs on my other choices in the game. How I fit ships, what fights I get into, who's fleets I'm willing to join, and so on. By removing clone costs, you are removing a factor in my decision making process.

Now, on the other hand, other choices start presenting themselves. For example, I'll be more willing to go try silly stupid things, just to see what happens. Personally, I think these new choices will be better, and make for a better game. But please be aware to the others side, as I explained above.



Spoken like a pilot who's never been in and around Bubbles.


Call me Joe.
Ryomaru Reaper
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#175 - 2014-11-16 19:51:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Ryomaru Reaper
13kr1d1 wrote:
Ryomaru Reaper wrote:
Don't really matter what the numbers are, or what specialization you are. I never spoke about specialization into a certain aspect, I always have had the jack-of-all-trades mindset, and thus that response wasn't what I was looking for.



That's good for you, but in a few months you'll probably just start using an alt anyway to do specific things instead of trying to do it all on one character. Thats what everyone does eventually.


Might be so, might not be so. I can choose to do what to play like, and if I want to be a jack of all trades, I can do that. That's up to me, that's a option I've been given.

What you are trying to do, is limit other player their options, to the point of that you actually NEED to make alts. That however is not what players are here for, they are here to play how they'd like.

Not how you are trying to plan out for them, and how they are supposed to play like.

Let the planning and progressing the game further, be done by CCP, the rightfull owners, of this game.

In which they are doing a fab job, by themselves, without the need for negative impacts on the game, by flawed ideas, from players.
13kr1d1
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#176 - 2014-11-16 20:22:51 UTC
Ryomaru Reaper wrote:
To be honest and I am quite the new player, but isn't having 25mill SP a choice as well, if you want to be a jack-of-all-trades, that's a choice.

Also having clones reworked, this way, it's easier for new players to come in, and try different things, and not be penalized as harsh. It makes way for people like me to enjoy the journey of learning that is Eve, instead of brutally be killed everytime, and stopping progression.

I think CCP has made a amazing choice to this, and thank the company for this amazing game.


I agree that it's your choice, but then you have to live with the consequences of trade-offs. I can make a PvP specced character out of the box, so to speak, and immediately be baseline ready for getting into missions or PvP tussles. I can make a Corp management specced character, and START with corp at V, meaning I'm instantly a high power character for the world of corp running. Admittedly, people will probably just use alts to carebear round the issues of trust and reliability for other players, but the tools in game ARE there for anyone to make a lot of ISKdoing what they like doing from the start of the game.

I feel like players' expectations have become so large compared to what is reasonable. I'm a JOAT myself and often I wish I'd just spent more time investing purely in PvP skills rather than branching off into mining and corp management and all those things. That doesn't make the system bad, or my choices bad, but it teaches me what I really enjoy doing.

What you may find is that in your effort to "do it all", you'll come up short in the near-term future.

The game's just built around having really good skill allocation to do anything particularly well. Want to scan competently, and reap results from your scans? You need high scanning and hacking skills. Want to reap good results from mining? You've got a ton of skills to learn related to ore specific reprocessing and mining and ship piloting. Same goes for PvP. Everything "takes a long time", so if you try to do it all, it's going to multiply that time, and that's just a core element of the game.

Most people will tell you that you need at least T2 weapons to PvP. I don't quite agree, a small gang of T1 fitted ships can work easily for chewing up a smaller number of enemy frigs with that volley damage. However, truly neck and neck PvP competition is going to require more skill specialization.


Don't kid yourselves. Even the dirtiest pirates from the birth of EVE have been carebears. They use alts to bring them goods at cheap prices and safely, rather than live with consequences of their in game actions on their main, from concord to prices
Ryomaru Reaper
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#177 - 2014-11-16 20:31:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Ryomaru Reaper
13kr1d1 wrote:
Ryomaru Reaper wrote:
To be honest and I am quite the new player, but isn't having 25mill SP a choice as well, if you want to be a jack-of-all-trades, that's a choice.

Also having clones reworked, this way, it's easier for new players to come in, and try different things, and not be penalized as harsh. It makes way for people like me to enjoy the journey of learning that is Eve, instead of brutally be killed everytime, and stopping progression.

I think CCP has made a amazing choice to this, and thank the company for this amazing game.


I agree that it's your choice, but then you have to live with the consequences of trade-offs. I can make a PvP specced character out of the box, so to speak, and immediately be baseline ready for getting into missions or PvP tussles. I can make a Corp management specced character, and START with corp at V, meaning I'm instantly a high power character for the world of corp running. Admittedly, people will probably just use alts to carebear round the issues of trust and reliability for other players, but the tools in game ARE there for anyone to make a lot of ISKdoing what they like doing from the start of the game.

I feel like players' expectations have become so large compared to what is reasonable. I'm a JOAT myself and often I wish I'd just spent more time investing purely in PvP skills rather than branching off into mining and corp management and all those things. That doesn't make the system bad, or my choices bad, but it teaches me what I really enjoy doing.

What you may find is that in your effort to "do it all", you'll come up short in the near-term future.

The game's just built around having really good skill allocation to do anything particularly well. Want to scan competently, and reap results from your scans? You need high scanning and hacking skills. Want to reap good results from mining? You've got a ton of skills to learn related to ore specific reprocessing and mining and ship piloting. Same goes for PvP. Everything "takes a long time", so if you try to do it all, it's going to multiply that time, and that's just a core element of the game.

Most people will tell you that you need at least T2 weapons to PvP. I don't quite agree, a small gang of T1 fitted ships can work easily for chewing up a smaller number of enemy frigs with that volley damage. However, truly neck and neck PvP competition is going to require more skill specialization.




Never did I state time was an issue here, nor do I think it is. And saying being a one-character JOAT is a problem because of having no specialization, is only one opinion. Nowhere does this game state, that this game is build around managing alts, nor did any of my clan-mates, in which atleast 2 are players that have played for 10 years.

And they would agree with me, that being a jack-of-all-trades can be good, and not a problem if you want to invest time.

Time is only a problem, for the instant gratification playerbase, which I do not belong to, and never will be.

I am here for the long run, not some 30 minute timed pvp battle, which is less enjoyable at times.

Your posts consist mostly of opinion based "evidence", which is no evidence at all. There's only one problem here, and that is people trying to make problems out of things that aren't one.

Nothing more, nothing less.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#178 - 2014-11-16 20:43:02 UTC
People actually defending the clone mechanics...
13kr1d1
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#179 - 2014-11-16 20:56:17 UTC  |  Edited by: 13kr1d1
Jvpiter wrote:
13kr1d1 wrote:

I ran the unmbers for you.
28,000
45,500
66,500
91,000
126,000
175,000

This graduated cost encompasses from 1 million to 6 million skill points. Thats more than enough SP to specialize fully into T2 frigs or ewar and T2 and so on.




So if people want to try other things in this vast game, you recommend they make new accounts and new pilots in order to escape the exponential costs of SP accumulation.


Your hypocrisy, I am quoting it. This is what you said in another thread.

13kr1d1 wrote:

1. An alt is another account. So you're saying pay more money to actually play the game, or maybe to carebear by avoiding risk by throwing real world money at the situation?




It feels good to be so right. I feel like that all the time.



Your post is ironic considering that what's being stated is accepting the costs or consequences of actions or choices. How do you think that makes you right, or makes me a hypocrite? I'd like to understand the logic in this.


Ryomaru Reaper wrote:


Never did I state time was an issue here, nor do I think it is. And saying being a one-character JOAT is a problem because of having no specialization, is only one opinion. Nowhere does this game state, that this game is build around managing alts, nor did any of my clan-mates, in which atleast 2 are players that have played for 10 years.

And they would agree with me, that being a jack-of-all-trades can be good, and not a problem if you want to invest time.

Time is only a problem, for the instant gratification playerbase, which I do not belong to, and never will be.

I am here for the long run, not some 30 minute timed pvp battle, which is less enjoyable at times.

Your posts consist mostly of opinion based "evidence", which is no evidence at all. There's only one problem here, and that is people trying to make problems out of things that aren't one.

Nothing more, nothing less.


Then why are you against clone upgrades, if time isnt a poblem, and you don't belong to the instant gratification playerbase, since, you know, clone costs is more time/more isk and less instant gratification?

Don't kid yourselves. Even the dirtiest pirates from the birth of EVE have been carebears. They use alts to bring them goods at cheap prices and safely, rather than live with consequences of their in game actions on their main, from concord to prices
Some Rando
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#180 - 2014-11-16 20:58:06 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
People actually defending the clone mechanics...

To be fair it's only like one guy and his alts writing a terrible novel.

CCP has no sense of humour.