These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Save Our Clones Initiative.

First post First post First post
Author
Tolkenmoon
Hogan's Heroes
#61 - 2014-11-15 15:18:56 UTC
Azda Ja wrote:
Tolkenmoon wrote:
Eve is turning into a theme park, clones are going the way of the skill que, they said it would never be longer than a 24hour slot so you could learn all the small skills without having to set the alarm clock. Yes you could put a long skill in at the end to make it longer. They caved in and made it as long as you want.

This game really is getting easy, befor long it will be wow in space.


Quality of life improvements != making the game a themepark.




How is it quality of life improvement?

Eve is supposed to be cold and harsh and you learn from your mistakes. By doing this they are holding your hand, you forget to upgrade your clone and die tough your fault.
Jvpiter
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#62 - 2014-11-15 15:30:35 UTC
Tolkenmoon wrote:
How is it quality of life improvement?

Eve is supposed to be cold and harsh and you learn from your mistakes. By doing this they are holding your hand, you forget to upgrade your clone and die tough your fault.



By your argument everything that takes a single click now should be upgraded to a triple click.


Making things tedious with no compelling choices involved is not gameplay.


What does somebody learn from a pod loss? Don't go in a bubble? Don't go PVP in dangerous space? Don't forget to press the exact same button that drains your wallet of the exact same amount of ISK before you undock?


There has to be some more interesting ideas in your mind than this.

Call me Joe.

Azda Ja
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#63 - 2014-11-15 15:36:32 UTC
Apparently rote learning is preferable to meaningful decision making when designing a good game.

Grrr.

Hicksimus
Torgue
#64 - 2014-11-15 15:41:14 UTC
ITT: More grumpy old men.

There is a special place behind the door for you folks.

Recruitment Officer: What type of a pilot are you? Me: I've been described as a Ray Charles with Parkinsons and a drinking problem.

Lfod Shi
Lfod's Ratting and Salvage
#65 - 2014-11-15 15:43:49 UTC
I got mixed feeling about this but I do lean towards saying bye bye to clone grades. Losing skill points = lot of time lost due to a simple oversight (forgot), excited oversight (gotta get back into battle!), angry oversight (%@#$%!), frustrated oversight (see "angry oversight").

The punishment exceeds the crime, imo.

♪ They'll always be bloodclaws to me ♫

Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#66 - 2014-11-15 15:50:37 UTC
Kate! it's the end of EVE as we know it. I just heard med clones are going away, but now we'll lose our clothes!
Commissar Kate
Kesukka
#67 - 2014-11-15 15:53:18 UTC
Rain6637 wrote:
Kate! it's the end of EVE as we know it. I just heard med clones are going away, but now we'll lose our clothes!


Noooooo!
Nolak Ataru
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#68 - 2014-11-15 16:36:36 UTC
CCP Darwin wrote:
13kr1d1 wrote:
Unezka Turigahl wrote:
Most games have one death and it is meaningless. Eve has two deaths that are both full loot-loss deaths with the possibility for a third XP death if you're forgetful. It stupid. It adds nothing. Good riddance.

And no, I've never personally lost XP. I just know stupid when I see it.


So you don't like the core of Eve gameplay. Don't wander into lowsec, you may not enjoy it.


With the caveat that I'm not a game designer, I do understand the reasoning and I'll share it.

The fundamental issue is that clone grades don't add a choice. When you are pod killed, you aren't presented with an interesting question -- "Should I upgrade my pod? How much should I upgrade it?"

Instead, you either upgrade, and protect your skill points against an inevitable further pod kill, or you don't, and suffer. One choice is so incredibly better than the other that you'll always pick it, unless you happen to forget.

Good game design isn't about punishing mere forgetfulness. It should be about presenting a meaningful choice to a player and letting them pick which way to go, with benefits to offset risk. Clone upgrade costs just don't do that -- they present a choice for which there's only one right answer.


By that logic, are we going to see D-scan be perma-open and always scanning for stuff every second or so whenever you leave highsec?
Azda Ja
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#69 - 2014-11-15 16:55:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Azda Ja
Nolak Ataru wrote:

By that logic, are we going to see D-scan be perma-open and always scanning for stuff every second or so whenever you leave highsec?


You're taking one use of D-Scan and discounting all of the active, meaningful uses it has away with that retort. D-Scan is a far more complex system with interwoven consequences attached to it's proper use (locating targets, POS etc...) than merely remembering to upgrade a clone after getting podded, or upgrading it when you surpass your current clone's limit. They are not comparable mechanics.

EDIT: Isolated relevant quote.

Grrr.

Nolak Ataru
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#70 - 2014-11-15 17:06:19 UTC
Azda Ja wrote:
Nolak Ataru wrote:

By that logic, are we going to see D-scan be perma-open and always scanning for stuff every second or so whenever you leave highsec?


You're taking one use of D-Scan and discounting all of the active, meaningful uses it has away with that retort. D-Scan is a far more complex system with interwoven consequences attached to it's proper use (locating targets, POS etc...) than merely remembering to upgrade a clone after getting podded, or upgrading it when you surpass your current clone's limit. They are not comparable mechanics.

EDIT: Isolated relevant quote.


Forgetting to keep d-scan open in null, low, and WH space will lead to a rapid loss of ship as well as your other concerns.

Jump clone grades provide an isk sink and ensure that skill loss is more of a danger to old toons as the skills can take many months to train (titan V, DD OP V, FC V, etc), which means he can't train anything else in that time period, which means that newer toons have a chance to play "catch up" in that time period, thus reducing the perceived imbalance between 200m SP toons and 10m sp toons.
Angelica Everstar
#71 - 2014-11-15 17:18:53 UTC
DEATH to jump clone cost.

Finally able to use all chars for frigates roams and that sort.



Now we just need Learning Boosters,
As more costly alternative to implants, and more pvp fun Lol

§ Current Bond AE09 1 Trillion / Acc. 4,5t ISK

ƒ Want to become a better trader ?

¢ Pls help support EVEs charities!

@EveEntrepreneur

Yarda Black
The Black Redemption
#72 - 2014-11-15 17:19:50 UTC
Having both extreme skills and a lot of skill-points; I applaud this change. Selfish.... I know.

Still happy about it :P
BrundleMeth
State War Academy
Caldari State
#73 - 2014-11-15 17:20:34 UTC
13kr1d1 wrote:
Why is the original vision of Eve being torn apart?

Things change, Get used to it...
Quote:
It was fine for 10 years.

No it wasn't...
Quote:
Let's not allow this Rhea patch to go through. Post here to save our clones.

Not allow? Yeah right...
Azusa Asara
Asara Corporation
#74 - 2014-11-15 17:22:15 UTC
I for one am quite glad these changes are coming. As a light player of Eve, I have never gotten to the giant Isk making that vets talk about and I "Specialized" my characters skills in order to keep clone costs down.

With the new changes I can freely skill everything into a single character without fear of breaking my bank when they die a few times in a day from pvp.
Mors Manet
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#75 - 2014-11-15 17:41:18 UTC
Are the proposed changes to the clone system an improvement? Too early to say; I'll wait for the full dev analysis to understand their reasoning. It is worth suspending judgment and hearing their vision, since many of the recent improvements are welcome changes: UI updates, bookmark handling, ship/module updates and many others. Perhaps they'll give us some choice in the type/quality/fitting of our pods to provide meaningful decisions on how to avoid being podded!

To many, the depth of EVE is what makes it special: Diplomacy, shifting alliances and pervasive PvP as elements of chaos; Long-term strategy for character careers/skills, faction standings and wealth generation; Mid-term elements including force projection, logistics and production; Short-term implant, booster and ship fitting decisions along with elements of fleet composition and deployment; Real-time combat tactics, energy/heat management and coordinated attacks. Makes for an amazing game.

That said, there's been a fundamental shift lately towards a more forgiving and less complex game environment. This is an unfortunate trend for many players who were originally drawn to EVE by those unique attributes. Perhaps these changes are meant to lure the 'mass market' of console kiddies which can't stomach thinking about anything more complex than mashing random buttons, being killed and then respawning quickly for another mindless zerg. If business realities force the company to cater to such tastes, I'd like to see it done in a way which is less impacting. Perhaps another grafted but distinct element like Dust or an integrated subset of the EVE universe.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for eliminating 'useless' clicks and 'pointless' complexity. PI provides a wealth of opportunity for such improvements. Similarly, the current 'clone' mechanic could certainly be improved. Just saying that 'complex' doesn't necessarily mean 'bad' and that death should retain *very* strong teeth in the EVE universe.

Cheers




Waltaratzor
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
#76 - 2014-11-15 17:48:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Waltaratzor
CCP Darwin wrote:
13kr1d1 wrote:
Unezka Turigahl wrote:
Most games have one death and it is meaningless. Eve has two deaths that are both full loot-loss deaths with the possibility for a third XP death if you're forgetful. It stupid. It adds nothing. Good riddance.

And no, I've never personally lost XP. I just know stupid when I see it.


So you don't like the core of Eve gameplay. Don't wander into lowsec, you may not enjoy it.


With the caveat that I'm not a game designer, I do understand the reasoning and I'll share it.

The fundamental issue is that clone grades don't add a choice. When you are pod killed, you aren't presented with an interesting question -- "Should I upgrade my pod? How much should I upgrade it?"

Instead, you either upgrade, and protect your skill points against an inevitable further pod kill, or you don't, and suffer. One choice is so incredibly better than the other that you'll always pick it, unless you happen to forget.

Good game design isn't about punishing mere forgetfulness. It should be about presenting a meaningful choice to a player and letting them pick which way to go, with benefits to offset risk. Clone upgrade costs just don't do that -- they present a choice for which there's only one right answer.


My only concern is if anything is going to be done to counter the loss of this isk sink. The skyrocketing PLEX prices make me think that isk and stuff has already gotten too easy to acquire and hold on to. Removing more isk sinks will just make things worse.
Thead Enco
Domheimed
#77 - 2014-11-15 18:05:33 UTC
13kr1d1 wrote:
Clones and clone costs have always been a part of Eve. They make sense in the scope of the game. They aren't a problem for anyone to pay off, ever. Anyone who can fly a T3 can pay off medical clones. Why would the empires simply hand out clones for free just cause of feels?

First it was the removal of needed standings for certain game mechanics, now it's clone costs. If we don't halt this now, it'll be learning implants gone next, and then standings will probably go away altogether. Why is the original vision of Eve being torn apart? It was fine for 10 years.

Let's not allow this Rhea patch to go through. Post here to save our clones.


TLDR; Post with your main and Adapt or Die # HTFU
13kr1d1
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#78 - 2014-11-15 18:34:07 UTC  |  Edited by: 13kr1d1
Thead Enco wrote:
13kr1d1 wrote:
Clones and clone costs have always been a part of Eve. They make sense in the scope of the game. They aren't a problem for anyone to pay off, ever. Anyone who can fly a T3 can pay off medical clones. Why would the empires simply hand out clones for free just cause of feels?

First it was the removal of needed standings for certain game mechanics, now it's clone costs. If we don't halt this now, it'll be learning implants gone next, and then standings will probably go away altogether. Why is the original vision of Eve being torn apart? It was fine for 10 years.

Let's not allow this Rhea patch to go through. Post here to save our clones.


TLDR; Post with your main and Adapt or Die # HTFU


You realize that this change is going through because OTHER people couldn't HTFU, adapt or die, nes pas?

Mors Manet wrote:
Are the proposed changes to the clone system an improvement? Too early to say; I'll wait for the full dev analysis to understand their reasoning. It is worth suspending judgment and hearing their vision, since many of the recent improvements are welcome changes: UI updates, bookmark handling, ship/module updates and many others. Perhaps they'll give us some choice in the type/quality/fitting of our pods to provide meaningful decisions on how to avoid being podded!

To many, the depth of EVE is what makes it special: Diplomacy, shifting alliances and pervasive PvP as elements of chaos; Long-term strategy for character careers/skills, faction standings and wealth generation; Mid-term elements including force projection, logistics and production; Short-term implant, booster and ship fitting decisions along with elements of fleet composition and deployment; Real-time combat tactics, energy/heat management and coordinated attacks. Makes for an amazing game.

That said, there's been a fundamental shift lately towards a more forgiving and less complex game environment. This is an unfortunate trend for many players who were originally drawn to EVE by those unique attributes. Perhaps these changes are meant to lure the 'mass market' of console kiddies which can't stomach thinking about anything more complex than mashing random buttons, being killed and then respawning quickly for another mindless zerg. If business realities force the company to cater to such tastes, I'd like to see it done in a way which is less impacting. Perhaps another grafted but distinct element like Dust or an integrated subset of the EVE universe.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for eliminating 'useless' clicks and 'pointless' complexity. PI provides a wealth of opportunity for such improvements. Similarly, the current 'clone' mechanic could certainly be improved. Just saying that 'complex' doesn't necessarily mean 'bad' and that death should retain *very* strong teeth in the EVE universe.

Cheers






Exactly! It felt like a complex living world instead of a theme park ride that's easy in, easy out. I liken it to older PC games of space.

Azusa Asara wrote:
I for one am quite glad these changes are coming. As a light player of Eve, I have never gotten to the giant Isk making that vets talk about and I "Specialized" my characters skills in order to keep clone costs down.

With the new changes I can freely skill everything into a single character without fear of breaking my bank when they die a few times in a day from pvp.


I look at it from the opposite angle. The game should force specialization so that everyone has a place, unless they're actually rich. There's nothing wrong with that. Imagine if people couldn't use clones or spam SP to be self sufficient? The market might actually be meaningful, not just for people wanting to start merc and protectionist corps, but for haulers wanting to be hired by miners, resource processing industrialists who make minerals from ore, and so on. The more self sufficient people are, the weaker the in-game economy is between players, and the more it is you might as well be playing WoW.

Don't kid yourselves. Even the dirtiest pirates from the birth of EVE have been carebears. They use alts to bring them goods at cheap prices and safely, rather than live with consequences of their in game actions on their main, from concord to prices

13kr1d1
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#79 - 2014-11-15 18:44:51 UTC
Nolak Ataru wrote:
CCP Darwin wrote:
13kr1d1 wrote:
Unezka Turigahl wrote:
Most games have one death and it is meaningless. Eve has two deaths that are both full loot-loss deaths with the possibility for a third XP death if you're forgetful. It stupid. It adds nothing. Good riddance.

And no, I've never personally lost XP. I just know stupid when I see it.


So you don't like the core of Eve gameplay. Don't wander into lowsec, you may not enjoy it.


With the caveat that I'm not a game designer, I do understand the reasoning and I'll share it.

The fundamental issue is that clone grades don't add a choice. When you are pod killed, you aren't presented with an interesting question -- "Should I upgrade my pod? How much should I upgrade it?"

Instead, you either upgrade, and protect your skill points against an inevitable further pod kill, or you don't, and suffer. One choice is so incredibly better than the other that you'll always pick it, unless you happen to forget.

Good game design isn't about punishing mere forgetfulness. It should be about presenting a meaningful choice to a player and letting them pick which way to go, with benefits to offset risk. Clone upgrade costs just don't do that -- they present a choice for which there's only one right answer.


By that logic, are we going to see D-scan be perma-open and always scanning for stuff every second or so whenever you leave highsec?


Something I didn't think about that I couldn't agree more with. People that used bot or script programs to upkeep the Dscanner automatically were temp banned and warned not to do that, even though it removes this forced option element in w-space of slapping scan every few seconds. It's a forced option like clone upgrades, and it has as much, if not more ISK impact than a clone upgrade.

And yet people that automated it got temp banned and CCP didn't decide to add auto-scan. I wouldn't like auto-scan introduced to Dscan much f or the same reasons I don't like clone cost going away.

Nolak Ataru wrote:


Forgetting to keep d-scan open in null, low, and WH space will lead to a rapid loss of ship as well as your other concerns.

Jump clone grades provide an isk sink and ensure that skill loss is more of a danger to old toons as the skills can take many months to train (titan V, DD OP V, FC V, etc), which means he can't train anything else in that time period, which means that newer toons have a chance to play "catch up" in that time period, thus reducing the perceived imbalance between 200m SP toons and 10m sp toons.


Good point, and if older players are really dumb and forget clone upgrades, it's their own fault. Something about EvE not catering to the lazy/stupid and being a harsh world.

Don't kid yourselves. Even the dirtiest pirates from the birth of EVE have been carebears. They use alts to bring them goods at cheap prices and safely, rather than live with consequences of their in game actions on their main, from concord to prices

13kr1d1
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#80 - 2014-11-15 18:48:17 UTC  |  Edited by: 13kr1d1
Due to quotation limits:

Azda Ja wrote:
Apparently rote learning is preferable to meaningful decision making when designing a good game.


The concept of "meaningful decision making" sounds so positive because of the words used in it, however, the truth is that it's rhetoric and not substantial. There's no difference between selecting from 5 choices and 2 choices except that it can actually lead to MORE dissatisfaction. Why don't you look up on google why people with more choices are dissatisfied with their choice when they pick something?

More clone choices = more dissatisfied players = more leaving subs.

http://www.ted.com/talks/barry_schwartz_on_the_paradox_of_choice?language=en
http://www.fastcompany.com/3031364/the-future-of-work/why-having-too-many-choices-is-making-you-unhappy
http://www.columbia.edu/~ss957/articles/Choice_is_Demotivating.pdf

I wasn't willing to risk you blindly counter-arguing, so I made the choice to use google for you. Right now, KISS with clones works. We could stand to have better choices in more important venues.

Don't kid yourselves. Even the dirtiest pirates from the birth of EVE have been carebears. They use alts to bring them goods at cheap prices and safely, rather than live with consequences of their in game actions on their main, from concord to prices