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Save Our Clones Initiative.

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Liz Laser
Blood Tribe Inc
#521 - 2014-11-25 02:28:58 UTC
13kr1d1 wrote:
Desimus Maximus wrote:
Clones are a barrier for pvp. Want to see pvp action quadruple overnight? Remove all penalties to being podded. No skillpoint loss, no implant loss.

Implants are a huge reason for avoiding pvp at all costs. Jump Clones are key here. You have an armor clone.. a shield clone.. a travel clone.. an ecm clone... etc etc.. Building up clones over time with high-end implants. Allowing players to keep implants will allow timid players to experience pvp with less worry. You can still lose your shiny ships that will still make for great KMs but implant KMs have always made me cringe because you know that player is gonna rage quit and avoid pvp if/when they finally log in again.



Ship cost is a barrier to PvP as well. We need to reduce it by 90% or something. Right?

Liz Laser wrote:
13kr1d1 wrote:
Unezka Turigahl wrote:
Most games have one death and it is meaningless. Eve has two deaths that are both full loot-loss deaths with the possibility for a third XP death if you're forgetful. It stupid. It adds nothing. Good riddance.

And no, I've never personally lost XP. I just know stupid when I see it.


So you don't like the core of Eve gameplay. Don't wander into lowsec, you may not enjoy it.


Fixating on one single game mechanic and then suggesting that it represents "the core of Eve gameplay" is rhetorical nonsense.

I don't care what they do with clones, but we'll all be better off without ridiculous posturing.


An ironic post. The core of EvE is a game where choices matter, and can cost you. You're free not to upgrade your clone, as you're free not to buy insurance.

Hey, why aren't you guys whining about insurance, since there's no real reason to buy anything less than full payout? Buying anything less is just a bad financial decision if you expect to lose your ship. Why do we even have grades of insurance when you either want bare minimum for hi-sec carebearing or full on platinum for active PvP?

In the interest of reducing mechanics which you feel have no value or are a waste, start with mid-grades of insurance.

What about all those modules/rigs that are useless except as newbie traps, like small energy ambit extension? Are they valid content or should we be removing them as mechanically flawed?


No one is whining, but you. I'm perfectly content to let the developers develop their game. You're the one whining that they're doing it wrong.
Ssabat Thraxx
DUST Expeditionary Team
Good Sax
#522 - 2014-11-25 02:38:42 UTC
Liz Laser wrote:
No one is whining, but you. I'm perfectly content to let the developers develop their game. You're the one whining that they're doing it wrong.


So it's your contention that CCP can do no wrong or make no mistakes?

\m/ O.o \m/

"You're a freak ..." - Solecist Project
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#523 - 2014-11-25 02:55:17 UTC
Ssabat Thraxx wrote:
Liz Laser wrote:
No one is whining, but you. I'm perfectly content to let the developers develop their game. You're the one whining that they're doing it wrong.


So it's your contention that CCP can do no wrong or make no mistakes?

Given the context of the single decision being the focus here that doesn't seem like a fair conclusion.
Nat Silverguard
Aideron Robotics
Aideron Robotics.
#524 - 2014-11-25 03:10:51 UTC
Ssabat Thraxx wrote:
Nat Silverguard wrote:
Algathas wrote:


For some the mechanic is meaningless, for others it is content. If you find it meaningful to cause as much damage to your opponent as possible, per unit of time, then you would want to kill their pod knowing that their pod has value. For each pod you kill, you know that is 1 less ship they can buy to come back and attack you with. In addition, some people are able to ransom pods because they have value. By removing the ability to damage an enemy's wallet by pod killing, it makes PVP less damaging to the opponent, therefore less meaningful. just because YOU don't find something meaningful, doesn't mean it is not..



Hey Mr. Bittervet, since you are very disgruntled about this change and about to leave EvE, can i haz your stuffz? Lol


That's gotta be the most original thing I've seen all day.... Roll




it might be, but my desire to have your "useless" stuff is definetly sincere and my feelings towards this is geniune. Smile

Just Add Water
Ssabat Thraxx
DUST Expeditionary Team
Good Sax
#525 - 2014-11-25 03:13:52 UTC
Nat Silverguard wrote:
Ssabat Thraxx wrote:
Nat Silverguard wrote:
Algathas wrote:


For some the mechanic is meaningless, for others it is content. If you find it meaningful to cause as much damage to your opponent as possible, per unit of time, then you would want to kill their pod knowing that their pod has value. For each pod you kill, you know that is 1 less ship they can buy to come back and attack you with. In addition, some people are able to ransom pods because they have value. By removing the ability to damage an enemy's wallet by pod killing, it makes PVP less damaging to the opponent, therefore less meaningful. just because YOU don't find something meaningful, doesn't mean it is not..



Hey Mr. Bittervet, since you are very disgruntled about this change and about to leave EvE, can i haz your stuffz? Lol


That's gotta be the most original thing I've seen all day.... Roll




it might be, but my desire to have your "useless" stuff is definetly sincere and my feelings towards this is geniune. Smile


Fair enough Lol

\m/ O.o \m/

"You're a freak ..." - Solecist Project
Jvpiter
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#526 - 2014-11-25 05:28:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Jvpiter
Algathas wrote:
Yes, destroying my enemies is content, while having no reason to avoid death removes content.


A pod is by definition incapable of any offensive capabilties or loading any modules and is 100% designed to warp out and escape. I'm sure shooting a ship like that is glorious content to you. I don't disagree, but obviously in this case CCP feels this is a type of content worth slaughtering in order to stimulate content generated by people undocking in ships.


I tend to agree with them. Ship vs. ship is better content than ship vs. pod. What you personally feel enjoyment out of is very qualitative and not a good basis on its own for a discussion, wouldn't you agree?




Medalyn Isis wrote:
Some peoples minds can only see one step ahead. So for them the choice seems obvious, less clone cost equals more fun pvping. It is similar to the people who think the minerals they mine are free. Trying to make the understand the nuances of a change as you did above is like trying to get blood from a stone, ie they are never going to understand it.

Hopefully CCP will come to the right decision on their own.


For a significant number of people mining is more of an AFK activity than anything else in EVE. That, combined with a low SP barrier of entry allows some people to earn ISK while literally doing something IRL else at the same time.


To these people, the minerals they mine are free. As infuriating as that may seem to you, there is no other EVE activity they can participate in and earn ISK in the same manner.


It is very simplistic of you to claim that CCP only sees "one step ahead". I think the overwhelming number of people would argue that CCP is able to see many, many steps farther ahead than you possibly can. If you have an argument that doesn't utilize the hysterical "EVE is being EQ" or slippery slope exaggerations, feel free to offer them up.

Call me Joe.
Drunken Bum
#527 - 2014-11-25 05:34:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Drunken Bum
This is truly an example of gamers crying about anything they possibly can. This change is good. Go ***** about the new UI already.

Edit: I hope they remove insurance next to give you nerds something else to cry about.

After the patch we're giving the market some gentle supply restriction, like tying one wrist to the bedpost loosely with soft silk rope. Just enough to make things a bit more exciting for the market, not enough to make a safeword necessary.  -Fozzie
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#528 - 2014-11-25 06:22:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Sabriz Adoudel
I don't agree with this post.

I think clone costs add a little to the game, in that they are an ISK sink that primarily affects experienced players (who are usually wealthy players).

BUT: The Crius industry changes amounted to a much larger, much better targetted ISK sink. Rather than hitting the 60 million SP people for a small tax and the 200 million SP people with a large one, this ISK sink hits expensive ships and so is much more precisely targetted.

It gets rid of the psychological barrier to involvement in PVP in cheap ships, which is also a good thing.


As for the last post - I would be happy if they did kill off insurance (but kept it for newbs for a little while, perhaps until you have had 250m in total income in your wallet ever).

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Leannor
State War Academy
Caldari State
#529 - 2014-11-25 09:43:29 UTC
personally, insurance is the worst thing about the game, always has been.

Should work like 'actual' insurance. Monthly fee, fee adjusted on frequency (maybe even situation) of loss. The more you loose, the more quickly you loose it, the higher the monthly (or weekly) premiums go. Cancellation of policy permitted, for a calculate buy-out fee.

Working in the insurance industry myself, would happy to help draw up a logic and pricing scale for CCP if they were interested in having real-world domestic style insuarnce.

(Ok, obviosuly, industrial insurance is a little different 'again', but either way, EVE insurance is pathetic).

"Lykouleon wrote:

STOP TOUCHING ICONIC SHIP PARTS"
Ssabat Thraxx
DUST Expeditionary Team
Good Sax
#530 - 2014-11-25 10:17:52 UTC
Jvpiter wrote:
A pod is by definition incapable of any offensive capabilties or loading any modules and is 100% designed to warp out and escape. I'm sure shooting a ship like that is glorious content to you.


It IS glorious when you look at that KM and see they had a few B's invested in that pod. Big smile

Quote:

I don't disagree, but obviously in this case CCP feels this is a type of content worth slaughtering in order to stimulate content generated by people undocking in ships.


I see the notion that this will encourage ppl to undock quite a bit in this thread, is it a valid assumption? Idk how much a rly high grade med clone costs, but from numbers Ive seen mentioned here, I think assuming 50M for the sake of argument is fair (feel free to correct me if wrong.) Is it even reasonable to think that 50M isk is any kind of hardship for someone with 100m SP? I think the whole argument is bogus.

Quote:

What you personally feel enjoyment out of is very qualitative and not a good basis on its own for a discussion, wouldn't you agree?


I thought the whole point of this discussion and any other non OOG topic on these forums inherently revolves around what we, they consumers, do or do not enjoy about this product, for the purposes of the sellers of said product retaining it's current customer base and attracting new customers. No?

Quote:

It is very simplistic of you to claim that CCP only sees "one step ahead". I think the overwhelming number of people would argue that CCP is able to see many, many steps farther ahead than you possibly can. If you have an argument that doesn't utilize the hysterical "EVE is being EQ" or slippery slope exaggerations, feel free to offer them up.


Citation needed? How far ahead did CCP see as they sunk 10 years and untold wads of cash developing WoD only to eventually scrap the project altogether? Were you around for the Incarna fiasco and "Monoclegate?" I think CCP is overall a pretty awesome company, and they DO get a lot of things right, but I think it very simplistic of you to state that they are "able to see many, many steps farther ahead" than someone who plays their game.


\m/ O.o \m/

"You're a freak ..." - Solecist Project
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#531 - 2014-11-25 11:08:08 UTC
Ssabat Thraxx wrote:

I see the notion that this will encourage ppl to undock quite a bit in this thread, is it a valid assumption? Idk how much a rly high grade med clone costs, but from numbers Ive seen mentioned here, I think assuming 50M for the sake of argument is fair (feel free to correct me if wrong.) Is it even reasonable to think that 50M isk is any kind of hardship for someone with 100m SP? I think the whole argument is bogus.

Please explain to me how 100 mil SP earns money faster.
This is not WoW where higher levels make 1000000 times more gold.
This is EVE, once you are over about 10 Mil Sp unless you have put it into really odd places you should have access to one of the decent income methods. Once you have said income method, things don't really improve much from there for 99.9% of players.
Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#532 - 2014-11-25 11:10:18 UTC
Jvpiter wrote:
Medalyn Isis wrote:
Some peoples minds can only see one step ahead. So for them the choice seems obvious, less clone cost equals more fun pvping. It is similar to the people who think the minerals they mine are free. Trying to make the understand the nuances of a change as you did above is like trying to get blood from a stone, ie they are never going to understand it.

Hopefully CCP will come to the right decision on their own.
For a significant number of people mining is more of an AFK activity than anything else in EVE. That, combined with a low SP barrier of entry allows some people to earn ISK while literally doing something IRL else at the same time.

To these people, the minerals they mine are free. As infuriating as that may seem to you, there is no other EVE activity they can participate in and earn ISK in the same manner.

*facepalm*

That still doesn't mean the minerals that they mine are free.
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#533 - 2014-11-25 11:10:43 UTC
when I was out in full force doing cap escalations, I was flying about... 12 bil in ships/modules, another 10 in pods. that's not sustainable.

Help, I can't download EVE

President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub

PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
Leannor
State War Academy
Caldari State
#534 - 2014-11-25 11:31:25 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Ssabat Thraxx wrote:

I see the notion that this will encourage ppl to undock quite a bit in this thread, is it a valid assumption? Idk how much a rly high grade med clone costs, but from numbers Ive seen mentioned here, I think assuming 50M for the sake of argument is fair (feel free to correct me if wrong.) Is it even reasonable to think that 50M isk is any kind of hardship for someone with 100m SP? I think the whole argument is bogus.

Please explain to me how 100 mil SP earns money faster.
This is not WoW where higher levels make 1000000 times more gold.
This is EVE, once you are over about 10 Mil Sp unless you have put it into really odd places you should have access to one of the decent income methods. Once you have said income method, things don't really improve much from there for 99.9% of players.


eaxctly ... SP and income do not correlate once over say 10mill SP. It's contacts, placing, and RL intelegance, and RL Time that make isk. And, the other obvious one ... ISK makes ISK.

I know far to many mature old high SP people who are constantly poor. Far more than rich high SP players.

[edit, yeah, covert posting at work, I can't spell or correct typos lol]

"Lykouleon wrote:

STOP TOUCHING ICONIC SHIP PARTS"
Arune Malieka
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#535 - 2014-11-25 13:31:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Arune Malieka
Algathas wrote:
Sakura Nihil wrote:
The problem what that argument is that when you exchange ISK for a ship, modules, rigs, etc., you get some inherent value from the ISK you spend. The more ISK you spend, you generally get a better ship, more DPS, better tank, etc.

The ISK you spend on clones is nothing more than a penalty for getting killed, because you were out in space doing something risky rather than spinning your ship in-station. Paying more ISK on a clone doesn't give you any advantages that you'd get from a ship or modules.

In short, I'm fine with them removing this mechanic. Just because it's been this way for a decade doesn't mean it needs to stay the same.


You are only looking at it from a defender's or loser's point of view. From an attacker's or winner's point of view, podding someone and having them have a penalty for loss makes perfect sense. You want to inflict damage on your enemy so you pod them knowing they have to buy a new clone (or lose SP). Every battle has a winner and a loser, which means there is always a side in every battle that can benefit from podding someone and making them pay for a clone. You can also chose to ransom them or let them go and not inflict that damage.

Under the new rules it would be advantageous punish someone by not podding them and making them fly all the way back from wherever they came from to get a new ship. Except oh wait! since pods are free they can just self destruct and get a free ride home anyway.

So under the new rules, you are taking choice away from the winner/attacker. Now the winner has no choice to A) kill the pod to do more damage. B) ransom the pod because they want to save their clone, or c) let them go. Under the new rules they get a free ride home no matter what.

And before you go on about implants. Really look at how many pods actually have implants in null. The vast majority of pods I have killed have no implants , which taking away medical clones will not change (not perfect statistical analysis I know, but I have podded a lot of people). Most pods that DO have implants are very cheap ones worth only a few mil. Then there is the rare pod worth a lot. So from the attacker's standpoint, for the majority of pods with no implants, you at least know you did some damage to them either by some isk or annoyance. For the ones that have implants, you know they can afford the loss.


Are you going to ransom them for the paltry sum of somewhat less than what their clone is actually worth? Because From the sounds of it, those are simply choices of "Do i want to be this kind of *******, or...."

If you really wanted to ransom them, you would have ransomed them long before you blew up their ship. Because their ship is where the real money is at. That fully meta 5 nightmare is what truly needed to be gone, the podding is just that tiny treat of "I'm such a jerk" that comes with it. But you aren't going to ransom them for what.... less than 5 mil worth of isk? Unless they are a super vet the pay out you'd be getting would be ****, if they even paid out. 5 isn't very much. The whole point of them removing it was "When people start asking for a mechanic to be automatic, thats when you know there is an issue."

people weren't really even complaining about clone costs [ which get ridiculous once you get into the 60,000,000 sp range by the way. I cringe at the thought that one day my lambda grade will have to be switched for an Rho grade. My poor wallet.] they were complaining about the fact that it didn't feel like there was any option but for you to pay for those clone costs. Even on the side of the attacker, that person you are shooting has no choice, NONE, as to whether that person should upgrade their clone or not. not upgrading your clone is the equivelant of being suicidal in EVE.

Seriously, if someone told you a story of a time they got podded, and one of their lines was "I was so pissed off I didn't even upgrade my clone" Tell me you wouldn't look at that person as if they were psychotic.

Do I understand where you are coming from? Sure. From the attacking point of view, it does add the savory sweetness of seasoning to the already present isk tears that your opponent is crying. But at the end of the day, all it is is annoying. I'm more annoyed at the fact that you blew up my fully fitted megathron. I sure can't wait to come out and kill yo-OH **** *hurries back to station*

Edit: I see it as clones being a lot like quick time events in games like modern warfare. Can you choose to not do the quick time event? Sure. But if you don't do the quick time event, you won't win the game so....
Ssabat Thraxx
DUST Expeditionary Team
Good Sax
#536 - 2014-11-25 13:52:08 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Ssabat Thraxx wrote:

I see the notion that this will encourage ppl to undock quite a bit in this thread, is it a valid assumption? Idk how much a rly high grade med clone costs, but from numbers Ive seen mentioned here, I think assuming 50M for the sake of argument is fair (feel free to correct me if wrong.) Is it even reasonable to think that 50M isk is any kind of hardship for someone with 100m SP? I think the whole argument is bogus.

Please explain to me how 100 mil SP earns money faster.
This is not WoW where higher levels make 1000000 times more gold.
This is EVE, once you are over about 10 Mil Sp unless you have put it into really odd places you should have access to one of the decent income methods. Once you have said income method, things don't really improve much from there for 99.9% of players.


Oh idk, you certainly have a wider variety of manners with which to make isk when you have that many SP, but I'll acept for the sake of argument that it's not more SP = more isk.

That said, Ive got like 40M SP, and it's been a very long time since 50M was more than trivial for me, and I don't think Im unique in that respect.

\m/ O.o \m/

"You're a freak ..." - Solecist Project
Algathas
Swamp Panthers
SONS of BANE
#537 - 2014-11-25 20:15:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Algathas
Arune Malieka wrote:
Algathas wrote:
Sakura Nihil wrote:
The problem what that argument is that when you exchange ISK for a ship, modules, rigs, etc., you get some inherent value from the ISK you spend. The more ISK you spend, you generally get a better ship, more DPS, better tank, etc.

The ISK you spend on clones is nothing more than a penalty for getting killed, because you were out in space doing something risky rather than spinning your ship in-station. Paying more ISK on a clone doesn't give you any advantages that you'd get from a ship or modules.

In short, I'm fine with them removing this mechanic. Just because it's been this way for a decade doesn't mean it needs to stay the same.


You are only looking at it from a defender's or loser's point of view. From an attacker's or winner's point of view, podding someone and having them have a penalty for loss makes perfect sense. You want to inflict damage on your enemy so you pod them knowing they have to buy a new clone (or lose SP). Every battle has a winner and a loser, which means there is always a side in every battle that can benefit from podding someone and making them pay for a clone. You can also chose to ransom them or let them go and not inflict that damage.

Under the new rules it would be advantageous punish someone by not podding them and making them fly all the way back from wherever they came from to get a new ship. Except oh wait! since pods are free they can just self destruct and get a free ride home anyway.

So under the new rules, you are taking choice away from the winner/attacker. Now the winner has no choice to A) kill the pod to do more damage. B) ransom the pod because they want to save their clone, or c) let them go. Under the new rules they get a free ride home no matter what.

And before you go on about implants. Really look at how many pods actually have implants in null. The vast majority of pods I have killed have no implants , which taking away medical clones will not change (not perfect statistical analysis I know, but I have podded a lot of people). Most pods that DO have implants are very cheap ones worth only a few mil. Then there is the rare pod worth a lot. So from the attacker's standpoint, for the majority of pods with no implants, you at least know you did some damage to them either by some isk or annoyance. For the ones that have implants, you know they can afford the loss.


Are you going to ransom them for the paltry sum of somewhat less than what their clone is actually worth? Because From the sounds of it, those are simply choices of "Do i want to be this kind of *******, or...."

If you really wanted to ransom them, you would have ransomed them long before you blew up their ship. Because their ship is where the real money is at. That fully meta 5 nightmare is what truly needed to be gone, the podding is just that tiny treat of "I'm such a jerk" that comes with it. But you aren't going to ransom them for what.... less than 5 mil worth of isk? Unless they are a super vet the pay out you'd be getting would be ****, if they even paid out. 5 isn't very much. The whole point of them removing it was "When people start asking for a mechanic to be automatic, thats when you know there is an issue."

people weren't really even complaining about clone costs [ which get ridiculous once you get into the 60,000,000 sp range by the way. I cringe at the thought that one day my lambda grade will have to be switched for an Rho grade. My poor wallet.] they were complaining about the fact that it didn't feel like there was any option but for you to pay for those clone costs. Even on the side of the attacker, that person you are shooting has no choice, NONE, as to whether that person should upgrade their clone or not. not upgrading your clone is the equivelant of being suicidal in EVE.

Seriously, if someone told you a story of a time they got podded, and one of their lines was "I was so pissed off I didn't even upgrade my clone" Tell me you wouldn't look at that person as if they were psychotic.

Do I understand where you are coming from? Sure. From the attacking point of view, it does add the savory sweetness of seasoning to the already present isk tears that your opponent is crying. But at the end of the day, all it is is annoying. I'm more annoyed at the fact that you blew up my fully fitted megathron. I sure can't wait to come out and kill yo-OH **** *hurries back to station*

Edit: I see it as clones being a lot like quick time events in games like modern warfare. Can you choose to not do the quick time event? Sure. But if you don't do the quick time event, you won't win the game so....


I don't really care about the money either, what I care about is taking away a penalty for being podded altogether. If having people buy a new clone is not the way to go, then fine. But don't remove the clones until a new mechanic that's better is made to replace it. Removing it altogether without something to replace it is worse than leaving it alone and doing nothing. At least with clones, we have choice on one side of the equation. Taking them away completely removes choice and gameplay from both sides.
Adunh Slavy
#538 - 2014-11-25 20:26:29 UTC

It’s been a long time coming, but CCP has finally wised up on this point. This should free up a lot of inhibitions, my own included.

If anyone still wants pod pop to cost them money, please send me the ISK you would have had to pay or go buy a battle ship and self-destruct. If these options are not to your liking, then you don’t have much of a point, do ya?

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt
Arune Malieka
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#539 - 2014-11-25 20:32:00 UTC
Algathas wrote:


I don't really care about the money either, what I care about is taking away a penalty for being podded altogether. If having people buy a new clone is not the way to go, then fine. But don't remove the clones until a new mechanic that's better is made to replace it. Removing it altogether without something to replace it is worse than leaving it alone and doing nothing. At least with clones, we have choice on one side of the equation. Taking them away completely removes choice and gameplay from both sides.


I can agree with this, but they haven't announced what system they are thinking of implementing. For me i'd rather they not take away clone grades because there are plenty of other ideas they could use. Like perhaps have it so that lower grade clones train faster but high grade clones keep you from losing SP. I don't know, something to make clones a bit more interesting and actually something to use.
Lil' Brudder Too
Pistols for Pandas
#540 - 2014-11-25 20:59:46 UTC
Following the logic of most of this thread....

It is annoying and painful to have to train all these skills to fly T2 ships...lets just delete the skill requirements for all T2 ships/modules, afterall, thats the only way to make it fair for the new players who don't have as many skillpoints as the old players.

New Icon SiSi feedback thread that got wholly ignored!

An example of that a good ship icon set looks like.