EVE General Discussion

Seems to me, that you are talking out of your ass. Are we even playing the same game?

Zerging? So a kitchen sink blob, where one only needs to be able to press F1 is not zerging? Narh, you are right. This has never happened in EVE. Removing clone costs will mean that ONLY NOW, blobs are introduced to EVE.

If anything, getting vets into smaller ships and enjoying smaller scale PvP, means exactly the opposite. Less blobs and hotdrops. More roaming around in smaller 10M ISK ships, that you won't have any issue losing or getting podded in. This change will mean more PvP, which is exactly what EVE needs to stay healthy. PvP is the ONLY thing EVE got going for itself. Without that, it is a very weak and clunky MMO, that really doesn't have anything that some other MMO doesn't do ten times better.

Yes, obviously will new players have a disadvantage than older players, like in ANY game. There exist no game, where older players doesn't have an advantage. Even with the same tools, older player will have an advantage based on experience alone. So tell me, how will this be any different from any other game out there? Having newbies flying around and actually getting some action (newbies will for the most part only fly small cheap ships) is much better, compared with newbies flying around space, not finding a single engagement and then leaves EVE cause they think the game is boring.

Everquest. PVP got so fricktarded they completely removed it in EQ2.

Now, back under your bridge, Troll. No more Twinkies for you!.

You would be right if EVE had a leveling of WoW, but it doesn't. High level SP character in EVE is not the same as high level character in WoW. You are simply not carrying all your "gear" with you on a high level in order for you to be able to stomp on any lower level character. All ships in EVE, especially subcaps, have their respective counter even in the same class, no matter how expensive the ship is and how expensive the fit is.... and yes - no matter how much SP you got.

And yeah,... my experience from Red Moon Rising is totally useful in an environment where we had several intensive balancing changes and a lot of new ships introduced over the years (all while disregarding the fact that I have little to none experience flying many of the ships).


Regarding the "barrier", the limit as it exists now simply pushes older players to use bigger ships. You are kind of right about the barrier - except that it isn't about the cost of the ship or the clone... it's about the price difference between ships and the clones where both can be easily paid but it's simply more logical to use bigger ships than smaller ones, if you have an expensive clone. And you have to remember, except for the "dueling" mechanics (which I've personally never used), players are not limited to ship classes when engaging in PvP whatsoever. Do you really think that newer players in smaller ships are safer with most of the vets flying, say, HACs instead of at least trying to make the fight interesting by using the same ship class as the targeted opponent? Do you think that there is a barrier now that prevents older players from sitting in an AC Hurricane and roflstomping a bunch of newbies in Rifters with little to no risk whatsoever? And do you really think that vets in smaller ships are safer than in HACs?

Regarding "zerging" (or blobbing, as we call it on this side of Azeroth), you have missed the point entirely. It's more logical that the mechanic which pushes vets to use ships that outclass their opponents encourages blobbing more than having vets fly smaller ships that can be dealt with 1v1 and even easily outclassed by a new player.

Besides, removing clone costs would encourage more PvP and produce more ship explosions in nullsec (where bubbles are, which are primary pod killers) and thus more fun and activity, for vets or new players.

EQ2 had open world pvp and it was great for a long time. Then SOE started tinkering with it. Nerfing this and that, while trying to chase after mythical newbees that were supposedly being scared away because the game was too harsh. OFC the new players never materialized despite SOE's efforts. Eventually SOE completely killed EQ2 pvp by introducing numerous instances, removing the death penalty, preventing level locking, making travel too easy, and ofc battlegrounds.

So yea you could equate CCP's moves in EVE to what SOE did in EQ2. OFC CCP isn't nearly as bad as SOE, but still the nerfing of the death penalty is a step in the wrong direction.

The "cry" that it will introduce more pvp is always how the death penalty is attacked in mmo's. The nerfing/removal of the death penalty only leads to bad pvp, pvp that is meaningless.

As for vets v. new players, what you ignore is that experience matters. Sure, a new player can kill an older player, but all things being equal, older players have more experience playing game - so even if everything was equaled out, the vets have the advantage. There is no new player pvp experience in this game. There is no safe area where new players can go to learn pvp in their own time playing against other new players. The best advice folk can give to a new player is go to low sec and lose 20 frigs. Well guess what? Nobody likes being a tool, losing over and over again. Pushing vets (or at least allowing them) into smaller ships, where they will directly compete against newer players who can only afford smaller ships hurts newer players.

Every time a new player loses a ship it is a big chunk of their net worth. Vets dont have that barrier because of the abundance of isk in the game. Clone costs equaled the playing field. Before a vet jumped into a small ship to go fight some other small ship he had to think was it worth it. Sure he might still say f-k it, and give it a go, but at least he has to risk something.

OFC being against the clone changes is not the popular position. CCP is giving out candy, and who doesnt like candy? But whenever somebody gives you something for free you should always ask is it good for you in the long run. Ask yourself, why is CCP suddenly doing this now? Clone costs have always been unpopular, so why now? The answer is simple - CCP is trying desperately to stem the tide of unsubs caused by its own previous actions by going for the low hanging fruits. CCP is trading short term benefit for long term problems. I strongly suspect that CCP knows that Clone costs benefit the game over the long term, and that's why they kept them as long as they did. If the game was healthy CCP wouldnt be touching clone costs.

I dont see where you got the idea that i was proposing a safe area for newbees to learn. Never said that. What I did say is absolutely correct and not contradictory. There is no safe area in eve for new players to learn pvp. Thus, if we want new players to actually come to eve, we need to balance the game such that they are not doomed to be cannon fodder for vets. The death penalty was one of the few tools in eve against vets repeatedly sticking it to new players. As imperfect as it is, the clone costs added risk to vets which they had to consider when engaging in small ship combat. Without the clone costs, there is no real risk to the vet. And sure its harsh for a new player to lose his coercer - but the risk should not be one-sided; the vet should also have risk. And you are simply wrong about clone costs hits a vet the same as a new player; they clearly hurt vets more, but if thats the issue - then lower clone costs for new players but leave the clone costs in place for vets.

Well, just a thought that came to me, havent really thought it all out yet, but let's agree that clone costs are rather high, tho certainly not unaffordable for vets. Clone costs for newer pilots can and perhaps should be relatively higher as a base percentage of their wealth or income.

That said, some folks are claiming that clone costs add nothing to the game, and do not bring about "reasonable choices" for players. But, consider this:

Clone costs are not prohibitive to gameplay, yet they are a bit of a dent in the wallet of a noob. I propose that the very fact that it hits the noob relatively more harshly then the vets is a good thing. It teaches people early on that you're going to die and going to lose $hit when it happens. The most liberating day of my Eve career was that day I no longer was afraid to get popped. Let clone costs be an educational feature to the noobs, and the tradeoff is it is rather incidental to the vets.

As for meaningful choices, clone costs provide meaningful choices to the iskless noobs. Pay out of your meager earnings to upgrade a clone, or go without that added padding to your skills, or perhaps alter your playstyle for a while as you save up to upgrade that clone (as if they were RLY expensive.) How is that not "meaningful choice?"

Dont see how you figure getting vets to fly smaller ships will led to less blobing. If anything it should lead to larger fleets since more ships are cheaper and essentially throw away. And zerging is not the same thing as blobing. At least to me, Zerging has always been dying and jumping right back into the fight without concern for death, which is a direct consequence of having a low death penalty.

You are kinda sort of right about eve only having pvp as its reason for being (the real world market would be my addition to your statement). But you are wrong about what makes Eve's pvp special. The mechanics of eve pvp at their basic level are pretty awful - approach, click in space, orbit, auto-shoot, there is simply nothing special about it. In truth, what makes eve pvp interesting is the meta game that goes with it. The real eve pvp is about the choices that folk make and the risks that they run in making those choices. Here, CCP is gutting the risk involved for the choices that vets make in engaging in pvp. By severally reducing the risk involved, ccp makes pvp less meaningful and therefore devalues what makes eve itself interesting.

Aha! Soooo, rather than getting rid of clones, perhaps we should go the opposite route and make them even MORE expensive, to the point that it IS a "meaningful decision!"

Making them more expensive doesn't change anything, from the current scenario. Vets will still only undock in hulls that makes sense for that pod price tag, and newbies will still have a tax on death.

I have said this before, risk should be tied to the ships and not the pod. There should not be a tax that regulates, based on the age of the character. Especially because, an older character doesn't mean a stronger character. It only means it has more skills and can fly more stuff. There is always an upper limit on the skills, meaning that at some point the vet and the newbie will be at the same skill level for that specific ship.

Ships that are stronger should be more expensive to lose, as well as, maybe more hulls needs to have skill loss introduced to them (looking at you caps and subcaps). Personally, I think we all should just for the most parts fly frigates and cruisers, and all the bigger ships are more rare sights, since the risk tied to losing them are much higher. But let's face it, a change like this would have people up in arms. I wouldn't be surprised if you guys were some of them.

But hey, I'm just a solo frigate pilot. No one wants my world.