These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Wormholes

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
Previous page12
 

Stealth Bomber Defensive Fleets in C1-C3
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
MooMooDachshundCow
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#21 - 2014-11-20 18:47:24 UTC
Niskin wrote:
Agata Black wrote:
I'd like to point out in any case that if you do decide to use bombers as a defensive measure to any degree you should consider the new Red Giant systems effect. A C3 Red Giant grants +58% to bomb damage now so 15 guys could hurt as almost 24. Making one of those your corp's home could bring some more weight to new members using bombers if you do decide to use them either as support or main fleet so it's something to consider.

I wish you good luck in your endeavors.


Doesn't that break the calculation for the number of bombs to use without blowing up your own bombs? I think you could do more with less but there would still be a hard cap on how much damage you could do in one coordinated launch.


Quite astute. I believe you're right, and that if a normal "wave" of bombers is limited to 7, in a red giant the limit is probably 4. Of course, the second wave can me launched just a few seconds after the first, so if you have more than 4 bombers you can still use all of them, just gotta break into more waves probably.

Yeah, well, it's just like my opinion, man.
Delt0r Garsk
Shits N Giggles
#22 - 2014-11-20 21:05:10 UTC
If you want to live in WH space, being versatile with ships and fleets is a must. Bombers have their place. But don't neglect t1 cruisers and even BC and BS. Once you have core skills, most of these ships can be flown well.

Also bombers are going to useless for any PvE. In fact once you get to PvE it is hard to not want to go for t3s really. Even in a c2.

AKA the scientist.

Death and Glory!

Well fun is also good.
Xen Solarus
Furious Destruction and Salvage
#23 - 2014-11-21 10:32:40 UTC
Used to be fun for a bomber squadron to hit a fleet as they came in through an entrance. Now everyone decloaks at larger distances, not so much.

Personally considering the wormhole peference to go T3 I can't see bombers having all that much effect for defensive purposes, especially with logi included. Still quite fun to try to get kills with minimal risk of losses to your side, assuming your bombing correctly.

Post with your main, like a BOSS!

And no, i don't live in highsec.  As if that would make your opinion any less wrong.  
Aeryn Maricadie
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2014-11-23 03:47:16 UTC



Probably right as you would need to be lucky -
A Guardian sporting 19 radar against the lockbreaker 12.5 its only about a 65% chance - but ECM is just percentages and luck.

[/quote]
Try 65 for a proper guardian fit w/boosts
Aeryn Maricadie
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2014-11-23 05:36:35 UTC
Justin Zaine wrote:
Good day fellow wormholers,

I've done the WH thing for almost as long as I've been playing Eve, and have been solo for much of that time. I love flying SB's, Recons and other cloakies and have done a lot of fleeting with BB in the past. However, I'm at a point in my career where I've taken an interest in starting my own corp and have begun to consider the possibilities of applying the tactics I've learned with these outside entities to life in a WH, and it is for that reason that i'm here today - I'd like to discuss the practicality of defensive SB fleets in C1 - C3 holes.

Lets face it - We can't all have 20 mil SP or more dedicated to flying T3's and other common WH PVP ships. Some of us like mining, some of us do research or PI, and sometimes it just isn't feasible to spend months upon months training for a PVP ship you may only use a handful of times, if ever.

Enter the Stealth Bomber. In a little over a month, assuming you haven't already trained your preferred Frig skill to level five, you can fit and fly a decent SB that does relatively high DPS for a ship that has a relatively low training commitment. Whether you're tearing down POCO's to put up your own, camping a hole to blap industrials, ganking site runners or defending your POS against an invading fleet, the answer to all of these questions seems to be a simple "Add Bombers." - In my opinion, they are an extremely well-rounded ship, and as anyone who has flown with Bomber's Bar in the past will tell you, they can be extremely deadly in numbers. Yes, there have been recent changes to them, both good and bad, but with the new Frigate holes and the WH content being released with Rhea, I see a bright future for these ships.

In light of that...Is confronting your enemies with a Bomber fleet a suitable tactic? What can a fleet of bombers actually do to repel a siege in the low-end wormholes? Am I wrong to be extremely tempted to use Bombers as a base line for PVP in any WH corp I might start in the future, or to recommend that new or industrial-based pilots make a strong effort to train for a Bomber as soon as they can?

If you guys can provide insight, I'd very much appreciate it.

Edit: To be clear, I'm referring to fleets of 10-15 bombers.


For one, anyone who lives in a Wormhole ought to have Covert Ops to lvl 4 anyway for the sake of Scanning.
Anyone that can fly a decent cruiser (250 dps, 65% resist avg w/decent buffer) is wasted in a bomber. That said if a fleet is already engaging and has some target painters on the primary a couple of bombs could definetly help break through reps.

Using Torps in a fleet engagement against cruisers is pretty much a bad idea.
Delt0r Garsk
Shits N Giggles
#26 - 2014-11-24 12:41:24 UTC
This is not the case. A few bombers with torps can and has been highly effective in some fleet engagements depending on what else is around of course. We have used them in the past to great effect. A lot of fleets still don't bring proper support . So can't handle frigates and with battleship level DPS against battleships and 50-60km range on torps, they can work really well with good pilots.

AKA the scientist.

Death and Glory!

Well fun is also good.
Jez Amatin
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2014-11-24 12:59:37 UTC
Delt0r Garsk wrote:
This is not the case. A few bombers with torps can and has been highly effective in some fleet engagements depending on what else is around of course.


That is still a lot of ifs n buts in there... I think the main point is peeps shouldn't go into wormholes thinking they can defend against an organised fleet comp with bombers. For quick easy ganks, or harrassing pos shoots by bombing drones sure.

But if i had 15 dudes in fleet i would push to get a proper fleet comp (aka. cruisers + logi). As an example, we mauled a few miners during the weekend and debated the coward ninja option (bombers) vs the balls deep ( cruisers). In the end we shipped up to cruisers and logi, pwned the miners and their defence fleet didnt fancy the brawl. So we moonwalked out with 3bil+ in pods, skiffs and a hulk, and a few token threats to boot Pirate

I'm not sure we would have had the same success in bombers.
Jackson Olacar
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#28 - 2014-11-25 01:34:57 UTC
Justin Zaine wrote:
Enter the Stealth Bomber. In a little over a month, assuming you haven't already trained your preferred Frig skill to level five, you can fit and fly a decent SB that does relatively high DPS for a ship that has a relatively low training commitment.


Or you could spend that month training up a decent t1 cruiser/logi. Granted, and Augoror isn't a Guardian. Nor is a Stabber a Loki, but a newer corp could make quite a bit of isk and get some good fights just diving right into core skills and the t1 equivalents of their more longer term goals.
Ilaister
Binary Aesthetics
#29 - 2014-11-25 01:43:28 UTC
The thing with bombers is that there are so few ships you fly where you load your pod in, head out into the depths of w-space, see one and think 'I'm ****** if he does xxx'.

Whatever I'm in. Solo or group. BS or T3. T1 Frig or Covops with a single drone for DPS. I always love seeing bombers decloak on me. They pop like corn.
Aeryn Maricadie
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2014-11-25 03:04:00 UTC
Delt0r Garsk wrote:
This is not the case. A few bombers with torps can and has been highly effective in some fleet engagements depending on what else is around of course. We have used them in the past to great effect. A lot of fleets still don't bring proper support . So can't handle frigates and with battleship level DPS against battleships and 50-60km range on torps, they can work really well with good pilots.

Yes torpedo Boats vs Battleships are very good. Torpedo boats vs cruisers are NOT. A 250 Dps cruiser will apply more damage to another cruiser than an 800 dps Torpedo boat will. The reason why this makes Torpedoes a bad option in wormhole space is that cruisers are the mainstay of Wormhole fleets (due to mass limitations).

Now in the likely Scenario of your Pos being bashed in a C4 and below the enemy will probably bring lots of attack battlecruisers. While Torpedoes would be effective against those targets, bombing runs would be way better since they could alpha the things off the field in one suprise attack especially if you combine it with a couple of people manning PoS guns.

Back to the OP's question. Yes bombers can do alot in WH's, yes people who otherwise would not train any other combat ships ought to at least fly a bomber, and yes in some particular instances putting people in bombers instead of dps ships could be handy. Should you build your defense fleet around bombers? No, they are a supplement.
Aquila Sagitta
Blue-Fire
#31 - 2014-11-25 03:22:18 UTC
Aeryn Maricadie wrote:
Delt0r Garsk wrote:
This is not the case. A few bombers with torps can and has been highly effective in some fleet engagements depending on what else is around of course. We have used them in the past to great effect. A lot of fleets still don't bring proper support . So can't handle frigates and with battleship level DPS against battleships and 50-60km range on torps, they can work really well with good pilots.

Yes torpedo Boats vs Battleships are very good. Torpedo boats vs cruisers are NOT. A 250 Dps cruiser will apply more damage to another cruiser than an 800 dps Torpedo boat will.


To play devils advocate... A maxed skill bomber pilot using strong crash + rigors can hit shield cruiser for full damage and armor for nearly full damage. Thats 6-700 dps. However the amount of pilots with max skills dedicated to bombers is gonna be fairly low. IF you had 10+ dedicated bomber pilots I think you could do some cool things. Chances of that happening are fairly low tho P

Blue-Fire Best Fire
Aeryn Maricadie
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#32 - 2014-11-25 04:06:43 UTC


Quote:
To play devils advocate... A maxed skill bomber pilot using strong crash + rigors can hit shield cruiser for full damage and armor for nearly full damage. Thats 6-700 dps. However the amount of pilots with max skills dedicated to bombers is gonna be fairly low. IF you had 10+ dedicated bomber pilots I think you could do some cool things. Chances of that happening are fairly low tho P
[/quote]

We can both play that game, how well can they hit sig tanked Loki's with skirmish warfare links, whichever booster affects sig radius, and full Halo sets?P

Anyway I was basing what I said off of a Purifier/Hound w/ rage torps and full skills and 3 Bcu's vs sig 150 (the large end of cruisers). But I see now that Faction Torps (Caldari) give 711 Dps but only lose about 1/2 damage to sig instead of almost 3/4, so about 350 dps assuming Full skills and they are moving less than 320 M/S (at that point they would start speed tanking instead of Sig tanking). The SP necessary would get much better dps out of a cruiser.

Shield Fleets don't seem that common, I've never even heard of one outside a wormhole that didn't have shield bonuses.
Delt0r Garsk
Shits N Giggles
#33 - 2014-11-25 11:25:28 UTC
I was never claiming bombers are always good in fleet engagements, but it is not true that they never are. For example a C5 pulsar is a 85% or something sig bloom. Bombs and torps are way more effective that you would otherwise expect against cruisers. Also you always have painters for DPS bombers.

Bombers vers cruisers is not so bad in that cruisers can't really get you if you fly right. But if they have a few AF, or cepters then bombers are going to pop fast. Or a anti frig fit cruiser or two.

Thing is these days a pos bash in a WH is almost certainly going to be Ishtars. Bombers should probably stay cloaked, or limit it to harassment only. Properly flown Ishtars are pretty resilient to bombers.

AKA the scientist.

Death and Glory!

Well fun is also good.
Previous page12