These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

We need an Anti-Drone Module
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Lug Muad'Dib
Funk'in Hole
#61 - 2014-11-17 13:02:02 UTC
ECM work on drones, drones can't shoot, very funny against Worm.. All weapons in eve are "Anti-Drone Module", and you need more ? Roll
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
#62 - 2014-11-17 13:14:00 UTC
Meditril wrote:
Hi CCP and all others,

let's face it, drones are currently the OP platform. With modules now available to raise drone damage and ships which put out crazy drone damages even with Warrior II drones, mitigation of drone damage is almost impossible since your frigate is usually melted by drones before you even managed to lock them up and shoot one of them.

So what we really need is a module which provides some kind of defense against drones. Smart Bombs (except for the large ones) are just doing too less damage to them and have too short range and completely suffer from the fact that is is absolutely risky to use them in high-sec. Therefore here is my proposal:

The Anti-Drone Electro Magnetic Pulse Module:
- It should take a high slot (but doesn't need to be a missile or gun slot)
- Once activated it takes 5 cap per every 5 secs.
- As long it is activated it will attack the nearest drone which is targeting you within a range of 5km.
- Every attack as the chance of 50% to cause the attached drone to suffer from an electric shock which makes it computer system need to restart. This basically means, the drone stops and is deactivated for 10 seconds until reset-procedure is finished.
- Let the module use 20 CPU and 5 Grid.

Numbers etc. are naturally subject to change, but I think such a module would bring back the balance to PVP against drones. Furthermore this would be another useful option for ships with an auxiliary high slot.


You've just invented ECM - albeit with slight differences.
Yours only works on drones.
Yours doesn't require targetting.
Yours is a highslot. (But ewar like this goes in mid slots)

Otherwise it's pretty close.

An unbonused but max skilled ECM mod has 4.5 / 7.5 = 60% chance to jam a hobgoblin II, and takes 28.5 cap / 20s, and has far more than 5km range.

I don't judge people by their race, religion, color, size, age, gender, or ethnicity. I judge them by their grammar, spelling, syntax, punctuation, clarity of expression, and logical consistency.
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#63 - 2014-11-17 13:34:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Ralph King-Griffin
13kr1d1 wrote:
Since when did shooting drones become an effective tactic against T2 drones with your tracking issues because of their close orbit, while they can just spam out additional drones to replace losses, while you're taking 500-1000 damage a volley from their drones?

always, since always.
yeah its a pain in the arse, but it works.

comment #6
baltec1 wrote:
Shoot them with your dronesBlink

/thread

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
13kr1d1
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#64 - 2014-11-17 17:34:14 UTC  |  Edited by: 13kr1d1
Spugg Galdon wrote:
13kr1d1 wrote:
Base stats for an Aco II are 204 hull, 228 armor, 48 shield.



Micro Smartbomb 1:
25 damage.
10s cycle.
2000m range.
20cpu/5pg

Small smartbomb 1:
50 damage
10s cycle.
3000m range.
30cpu/8pg

Warrior II (*5):
100 damage.
4s cycle.
156/108/120 hp.
NO FITTING COST.


Crunch the numbers and tell us how to make Smartbombs worth the fitting cost, or lower fitting cost, while having the DPS to kill off drones before your frigate gets murdered by high volley/dps, while it also counters replacement drones, while it also doesn't make SB OP in ship to ship fights, while it also skirts the security status issues of an AoE weapon, and we might, might, have something.




Technically, A micro smartbomb does 125 damage percycle to a full flight of drones and a small smartbomb does 250 damage per cycle to a full flight of drones. You know, because of area of effect and all that. So I think smartbombs are actually in a good place right now. They're just a bit too tough to fit in most instances



Which is why bufing SBs could make them the only thing you see on frigs. Enough one hit damage output = fitted onto frigs who become literal suicide bombers running into the middle of the enemy with SB on.

And yes, it' AoE damage, that's inconsequential to the fact that it's low damage PER drone. 125 sounds impressive until you realize that it takes 1920 damage to kill all the drones. That's over 10 cycles/over 100 seconds.

I actually erred in calculating warrior II damage, it's not 100 damage for the 5 drones, it's 156 damage. They have a 4 second cycle. They can do 25 cycles in 100 seconds. That's 3900 damage. So, unless you're plated or extended 2000 extra hp, tell me who pops first, the frig or the drones?

[edited to point out that this is the baseline stuff, completely disregards hull bonus stats for damage, tracking, etc, all of which boost or maximize DPS from those drones, not to mention racial drone spec, which improves damage again]

Add onto this the fact that the ship itself still has guns, and can replace any lost drones you're actually trying to fire at and kill, and managing to use SB and turrets/missiles to kill drones attacking you is Sisyphean at best. The only time I've seen frigates able to "kill drones" is when they're moving quickly and being shot by low tracking medium or heavy drones. The tracking on light drones is too good, the damage is too good, etc.

The idea that you're actively killing drones means that the ship which launched them has THAT much more hps without having fitted modules, it has that damage output without fitting guns, and it can then stack guns and defenses on it's own. Thats why you see tristans doing everything, from neut/nos to shield tank on an armor tank racial ship.

Quote:
This might be because the Tristan is a well balanced and flexible ship, it still gets outdpsed or tanked by most other tech 1 frigates, and because there are a lot of alternate fits available for it


You just contradicted yourself. The Tristan shouldn't get outdone by other T1 frigs if it's well balanced and flexible. And if it is well balanced and flexible, then other T1 frigs must be inferior, as the sentence implies that Tristan is well balanced and flexible in contrast to other T1 frigs. How does it get outdpsed and outtanked because there are a lot of alternate fits available for it?

Don't kid yourselves. Even the dirtiest pirates from the birth of EVE have been carebears. They use alts to bring them goods at cheap prices and safely, rather than live with consequences of their in game actions on their main, from concord to prices
Phaade
Know-Nothings
#65 - 2014-11-17 18:22:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Phaade
Quote:
Phaade wrote:
[Drones are disgustingly overpowered.

They have been for a long time.

Please let me switch between large, medium, and small guns or missiles on the fly. Let their tracking not matter, let my position on the field be irrelevant to my target.

Fly an algos and tell me drones are fine. Please.


Says you, I have about 4 years worth of sparing with non-drones pilots that says otherwise, and yes I am smart enough to know the differences between our sparring into structure between friends and real PvP fights till someone goes pop.

In real PvP action my son and 6 of his friends I know that play the PvP side of this game have never lost a true one on one fight with a drones boat, so maybe there is a trick out there that you need to learn yet.

It is 11/16 at 5:00 in the afternoon here on the west coast of the US and a simple look at the top ten killers on the Battle Clinic kill board says you are wrong as well. Of those only 3 of them have more than 5 kills using a drones ship. Add in the pilot with 3 kills in an Ishtar and you get 4 of the top 10 that even fly drones ships. Even for those 4 characters the kills using drones ships are a very small portion of their totals. If drones are so OP how come the top ten killers on the Battle Clinic board are not using them?

So you may be tempted to argue that those are solo kills and you are talking about fleet engagement. My response to that is to ask the simple question, are the drones truly OP or just OP in the fleet engagements that you have been in?

And last is the most obvious of all, if drones are so OP why are you complaining about them instead of joining the party and using them?



LOL!!

The best part of this drivel is that your son "has never lost a 1v1 fight to a drone boat." Your son does not PVP, or lies excessively.

You really use killboards as a tool to demonstrate balance? Further proving your utter lack of pvp knowledge because clearly the most elite PvPers in all of Eve engage in station games, or sit on bubbles in gate camps in Nullsec. That 99% isk efficiency spells ELITE.

Drones on a drone ship are only a small portion of their dps? What? You must be kidding. Are you aware of a neut tristan / neut Vexor? You realize that Vexors can do perfect dps to frigates, and cruisers? Dominix / Myrm / Ishtar can as well...

I am speaking of solo kills; a large portion of my pvp activity is solo. I have plenty of experience in this regard, particularly involving frigates and cruisers. Drones are, however, broken in both solo and in fleet scenarios.

Why do I not jump on the OP bandwagon? I dont know call it a matter of character. I explicitly do not use overpowered things in any game because winning with a giant advantage is hollow.

You are like one of those highschool baseball coaches that thinks they know the game because they watched coaching videos.

I will gladly kill your son and any one of his six friends that play, solo, with a drone ship.
Zavand Crendraven
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#66 - 2014-11-17 19:12:12 UTC
13kr1d1 wrote:
I actually erred in calculating warrior II damage, it's not 100 damage for the 5 drones, it's 156 damage. They have a 4 second cycle. They can do 25 cycles in 100 seconds. That's 3900 damage. So, unless you're plated or extended 2000 extra hp, tell me who pops first, the frig or the drones?

[edited to point out that this is the baseline stuff, completely disregards hull bonus stats for damage, tracking, etc, all of which boost or maximize DPS from those drones, not to mention racial drone spec, which improves damage again]

pls do tell me how u got those numbers because when i fit a tristan with T2 hobgoblins and 2x DDAs with all Vs i get 146dps which just happens to be 10dps less than the dmg u said u got from warriors
Schneevva
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#67 - 2014-11-17 19:50:39 UTC
Quote:
You just contradicted yourself. The Tristan shouldn't get outdone by other T1 frigs if it's well balanced and flexible. And if it is well balanced and flexible, then other T1 frigs must be inferior, as the sentence implies that Tristan is well balanced and flexible in contrast to other T1 frigs. How does it get outdpsed and outtanked because there are a lot of alternate fits available for it?


This whole paragraph is a big pile of dumb. It's like you think that if a ship is balanced it can't be worse than anything else, like, what? Tristan versus incursus, depending on the exact scenario/fittings etc, can go either way. Even though, numerically, in most things, the Incursus is just better.
13kr1d1
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#68 - 2014-11-17 21:17:12 UTC
Zavand Crendraven wrote:
13kr1d1 wrote:
I actually erred in calculating warrior II damage, it's not 100 damage for the 5 drones, it's 156 damage. They have a 4 second cycle. They can do 25 cycles in 100 seconds. That's 3900 damage. So, unless you're plated or extended 2000 extra hp, tell me who pops first, the frig or the drones?

[edited to point out that this is the baseline stuff, completely disregards hull bonus stats for damage, tracking, etc, all of which boost or maximize DPS from those drones, not to mention racial drone spec, which improves damage again]

pls do tell me how u got those numbers because when i fit a tristan with T2 hobgoblins and 2x DDAs with all Vs i get 146dps which just happens to be 10dps less than the dmg u said u got from warriors


You didn't read it properly.

Warrior II's do 20 damage, and have a 1.56 damage modifier. Hence, 5 war II's do 156 damage.

Don't kid yourselves. Even the dirtiest pirates from the birth of EVE have been carebears. They use alts to bring them goods at cheap prices and safely, rather than live with consequences of their in game actions on their main, from concord to prices
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#69 - 2014-11-18 04:22:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Donnachadh
Phaade wrote:
LOL!!

The best part of this drivel is that your son "has never lost a 1v1 fight to a drone boat." Your son does not PVP, or lies excessively.

Better go back and read that again cause you obviously did not read it the first time. I quote myself here and please go check this "have never lost a true one on one fight with a drones boat," I did not say he has NEVER lost a fight with a drones ship that is your interpretation.

Maybe he is better at picking the fights he goes into, or those he flys away from? After sparring with me and drones for 4 years maybe he has a few tricks up his sleeve that you have never figured out, maybe he is just plain lucky I do not know for sure. What I do know is that because you CANNOT do something does not mean it CANNOT be done.

Phaade wrote:
[quote]You really use killboards as a tool to demonstrate balance?

No I use kill boards because there is no other tool to use. We can all post whatever we want and there is no way to prove or dis-prove any of it. A kill board on the other hand takes data directly from the game and as such it is the only real tool we have that takes personal opinion out of the equation. In every form of human activity the best always use the best tools. pro football players use the best gear, pro racers use the best car/boat/motorcycle, pro mechanics use the best tools. If drones were as OP as you and others claim they are they would clearly be the "best tools" in the game for killing other players and they would have a significantly larger presence on the kill boards of the top ten killers in all of EVE. These are simple facts of human nature, one does not need to be an "expert" to understand them.

Phaade wrote:
Drones on a drone ship are only a small portion of their dps? What? You must be kidding.

Wondering where in the hell you came up with this drivel because I never posted it and I never would since drones are the major damage output of all drones ships in the game, hint here, that is why they call them "Drones ships".

Phaade wrote:
You realize that Vexors can do perfect dps to frigates, and cruisers? Dominix / Myrm / Ishtar can as well...

You know what every other ship that uses guns in all of their forms do perfect hits as well so that must mean that they are OP? The guns on drones use the same formula that all other guns in EVE use to determine damage applied to the target. Do they get full damage hits, of course they do, do they get wrecking hits? of course they do, do they miss of course they do but then that just makes them the same as all of the other guns in the game.
13kr1d1
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#70 - 2014-11-18 04:44:36 UTC
You can throw out medium drones if you face another cruiser. You can throw out light drones if you see a frigate, especially if its a tackler.

You can't swap medium turrets or heavy missiles for small turrets or RLMLs at the click of a button depending on who you're fighting.

Don't kid yourselves. Even the dirtiest pirates from the birth of EVE have been carebears. They use alts to bring them goods at cheap prices and safely, rather than live with consequences of their in game actions on their main, from concord to prices
WhyYouHeffToBeMad IsOnlyGame
#71 - 2014-11-18 07:27:05 UTC
try joining a corp (or militia) that doesn't fail and then fit an actual tank on your frigate and learn how to fight.

Everything's a game if you make it one - Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci

CCP: Continously Crying Playerbase - Frostys Virpio
13kr1d1
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#72 - 2014-11-18 23:33:59 UTC  |  Edited by: 13kr1d1
Quiet.

When the game encourages only a few viable build styles, it's shallow. In PvP when you're dealing with turret ship vs turret ship, it's completely viable to use alternatives to hp buffer to protect yourself in 1v1 and your side in gang/fleet fights. These things range from speed and range holding, to active tanks with GJ use and conservation/protection, to neuting/nosing the other team, to using ewar.

Practically speaking, none of these are viable against drone ships, and as we've already established, they do a LOT of damage, especially that ishtard.

I say, tone down the drone damage and tracking hull bonuses to 2%, and boost up the damage on hull bonus for turrets from 0% to 2%. Then the ship is less reliant on drones, or, alternatively, means it needs to bring both drones and guns to bear on enemy targets, while meaning the drones themselves are less OP, especially in the ishtard's hands.

How can you be opposed to that?

Don't kid yourselves. Even the dirtiest pirates from the birth of EVE have been carebears. They use alts to bring them goods at cheap prices and safely, rather than live with consequences of their in game actions on their main, from concord to prices
Gadget Helmsdottir
Gadget's Workshop
#73 - 2014-11-19 03:00:08 UTC
13kr1d1 wrote:
Quiet.

When the game encourages only a few viable build styles, it's shallow. In PvP when you're dealing with turret ship vs turret ship, it's completely viable to use alternatives to hp buffer to protect yourself in 1v1 and your side in gang/fleet fights. These things range from speed and range holding, to active tanks with GJ use and conservation/protection, to neuting/nosing the other team, to using ewar.

Practically speaking, none of these are viable against drone ships, and as we've already established, they do a LOT of damage, especially that ishtard.

I say, tone down the drone damage and tracking hull bonuses to 2%, and boost up the damage on hull bonus for turrets from 0% to 2%. Then the ship is less reliant on drones, or, alternatively, means it needs to bring both drones and guns to bear on enemy targets, while meaning the drones themselves are less OP, especially in the ishtard's hands.

How can you be opposed to that?



That's more along the lines of what people have been saying. Nerf the drone boats... not the drones. Drones on a regular ship are just supplemental, and many don't even carry combat drones, opting for utility. Those that do, understand that the drones are a limited resource. Your 25m3 drone bay will quickly be empty if your drones are shot down. And no refills unless you can launch and use a depot... of course if you could do that, then ya coud switch turrets to something else.... maybe something smaller with more tracking?

Still, I don't think that every droneboat needs to be hammered (unless you're an Ishtar), but I wouldn't mind a revisit someday. Maybe droneboats could go along the lines of super-powering a much smaller amount of drones with big bonuses to the drone usage but just as large cuts to bay and bandwidth. This way, shooting down a drone will make more of a difference.

--Gadget

Work smarter, not harder. --Scrooge McDuck, an eminent old-Earth economist

Given an hour to save New Eden, how would respected scientist, Albertus Eisenstein compose his thoughts? "Fifty-five minutes to define the problem; save the galaxy in five."
Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
#74 - 2014-11-19 03:05:40 UTC
ECM - Drone Control Jammer

If successful any drones of the targeted ship go idle for the duration of the module.

Would be perfectly fitting for Caldari to have those.

Sovereignty and Population

New Mining Mechanics
Jenshae Chiroptera
#75 - 2014-11-19 03:16:37 UTC
Ceawlin Cobon-Han wrote:
... though no-one is whining about missiles.


It would be good to be fast enough to out run missiles (... or make them a little slower and fire a little more frequently)

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.
clbo
Arcane Circle
#76 - 2014-11-19 04:06:45 UTC  |  Edited by: clbo
Meditril wrote:
Bl1SkR1N wrote:
Anti drone missiles maybe?


Missiles would be restricted to missile boats which I wanted to avoid. We have a lot of ships with a "spare" high slot for which I just wanted to give another use while solving the "drone problem" at the same time :-)



You don't say... so no missiles because you don't like those and if possible this one slot wonder should fit exactly in that empty slot of yours because "drone problem" don't really warrant the use of even one weapon slot. I guess having a sensor dampener script that decreased drone control range isn't innovating enough for EVE Online, the internet spaceship game.

Also, I'm sorry to burst your bubble but "using high-slots for even more damage" gets you at the same place as using drones on a weapon bonused ship while "mobility" comes at the price of leaving the main weapon system on grid.

There is no "proper counter module" to being so bad that you can't get a Ishtar fleet to warp off grid and loose their drones. Actually there's more than one, but I do understand that scanning is hard and flying frigates is for... well not for you because when you go elitepvp vindicator camping on the station undock you can't ever go back.