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This seem off. Rails vs Arty

Author
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2014-11-11 15:57:58 UTC
I'll come straight to the point.

I can fit up my stabber (with 3 damage mods) and I have a higher DPS with 250 rails vs 650 arty.

Now, I appreciate that 650 isn't the biggest arty - but you try fitting 720mm on a T1 cruiser....

Arty (RFEMP) and warriors: 338 DPS//1544 alpha (12+32)
Rails (CNAM) and warrors: 389 DPS//1242 alpha (18+15)
Rails (CNU) and warrors: 337 DPS//1088 alpha (27+15)

There's not a huge alpha gap, yet bonused arty is doing 86% of unbonused rail DPS.

What gives?

Yes, yes, arty is capless etc...but come on now, let's be sensible - this is a bit whacky.


Similar results can be had with a rupture - with arty edging it by some 4% - keep in mind the rupture is double bonused.


tl:dr: I'm doing more damage with unbonsed rails than bonused arty.


Can we either look at rails or the artys please?
Arronicus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2 - 2014-11-11 16:31:38 UTC
med and small arties are just bad right now. Arty muninns were popular for a bit, till people realized that sentry ishtars did almost the same thing but far better.
Ellendras Silver
CrashCat Corporation
#3 - 2014-11-11 16:37:17 UTC
factor in falloff, optimal, tracking, cap use, damage projection, type of damages you can deal and then compare them again.

by your logic i should make a post about how bad my damage is with auto cannons on my machariel in comparison to the blasters on my vindicator because the difference in raw DPS is HUGE

[u]Carpe noctem[/u]

James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#4 - 2014-11-11 16:38:29 UTC
And large isn't much better, but at least has a respectable alpha in almost every case.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp

afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2014-11-11 16:43:24 UTC
Ellendras Silver wrote:
by your logic i should make a post about how bad my damage is with auto cannons on my machariel in comparison to the blasters on my vindicator because the difference in raw DPS is HUGE



No, it would be like comparing a blaster mach to an AC mach.

Read it again.

Arty STABBER vs rail STABBER
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#6 - 2014-11-11 16:43:36 UTC
Ellendras Silver wrote:
factor in falloff, optimal, tracking, cap use, damage projection, type of damages you can deal and then compare them again.

by your logic i should make a post about how bad my damage is with auto cannons on my machariel in comparison to the blasters on my vindicator because the difference in raw DPS is HUGE


A similar comparison would be acs on a mach vs blasters also on a mach.
Arla Sarain
#7 - 2014-11-11 16:57:53 UTC
Shameless plug:

Claw is useless in the face of pretty much every other ship.
With arties: 250 - way too low alpha per range to bother. 280 - **** tracking, no PG left, too much glass not enough cannon.
With ACs: loldamage for a weapon system that requires you to be within scram and web range with just 2 midslots.


That being said I bet a big chunk of alpha is coming from drones in your calculations.
Compute alpha without drones.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#8 - 2014-11-11 16:59:51 UTC
Fair Comparison:
250mm rails: 309 dps, 921 alpha
720mm arty: 284 dps, 2111 alpha

Fair Comparison:
200mm rails: 294 dps, 670 alpa 14+13
650mm arty: 258 dps 1223 alpha 12+33

(Can't fit a tank with either 720's nor 250's)
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#9 - 2014-11-11 17:01:44 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
Arla Sarain wrote:
That being said I bet a big chunk of alpha is coming from drones in your calculations.
Compute alpha without drones.


DPS: 308 vs 258
Alpha: 920 vs 1222


Edit: The same tank is fittable with 650 vs 250.
Sigras
Conglomo
#10 - 2014-11-11 17:17:54 UTC
Comparing the smallest arty with the largest railgun isnt really fair... you dont really seem to have a problem with arty DPS so much as arty CPU/PG
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#11 - 2014-11-11 18:44:01 UTC
The issue with artillery is fitting, and only fitting. Your dps is lower with arty because arty has slow cycle times but HUGE volley potential. Compare volley on rail gun and then arty. Its almost doubled. Faster RoF is higher dps. Arty isnt about dps but alpha.

My 280 jag does 160dps but hits for 1k. Thats with 3 turrets.

I do agree though, arty is not in the best position, nor the ships that are designed to use it. Small and medium arty needs a 10% PG drop to start. Large is fine imo.
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#12 - 2014-11-11 18:51:29 UTC
Sigras wrote:
Comparing the smallest arty with the largest railgun isnt really fair... you dont really seem to have a problem with arty DPS so much as arty CPU/PG


Yes i agree, but, it points out clearly that arty pg requirements are absurd. The largest rail gun fits the same as the smallest artillery turret with the same tank (as per OP).
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#13 - 2014-11-11 19:23:38 UTC
Keep in mind it's bonused vs unbonused.

The alpha on a thorax with 200s isn't a million miles off the arty boats either (thorax is over 1k)

Point I'm getting at is I don't believe unbonused weapons should get near bonused ones on the same hull
Tappits
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#14 - 2014-11-11 19:27:57 UTC
afkalt wrote:
I'll come straight to the point.
Stuff


Artys dont use cap..
Artys Can pick damage type...
For these 2 things they do less DPS Than Rails..
McChicken Combo HalfMayo
The Happy Meal
#15 - 2014-11-11 20:46:01 UTC
afkalt has a point.

Medium rails do 17% less damage than medium blasters.
Small rails do 39% less damage than small blasters
Large rails do 40% less damage than large blasters.

This has happened because medium rails were buffed a few patches ago, about a year back. They got a 15% damage boost I think? While losing some tracking. It was a bad balance pass and should be reversed.

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afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#16 - 2014-11-11 20:50:56 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
That pass actually did all the medium long range weapons save HML: beam/arty/rails. Iirc all the buffs were equitable.

I might see what happens with beams on the stabber :)


Edit: so with the Middle beams (biggest won't fit with tank) we get 250 DPS/662 alpha @13+7.5

So the bonused arty is better than the fittable unbonused beams. As it ought to be, after all - hull bonuses!!!


Which takes us back to the rails...wtf
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#17 - 2014-11-11 21:42:25 UTC
Even the 720 have better tracking than the 250. Is that taken into account?
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#18 - 2014-11-11 21:50:16 UTC
Missile damage is out of whack.

Volley damage of 3x heavy missile launchers on an unbonused Blackbird is supposed to do 613hp damage but she only does about 200hp beta-damage?

Whaddap with that?

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James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#19 - 2014-11-11 22:03:08 UTC
elitatwo wrote:
Missile damage is out of whack.

Volley damage of 3x heavy missile launchers on an unbonused Blackbird is supposed to do 613hp damage but she only does about 200hp beta-damage?

Whaddap with that?

Its called resists and damage mitigation?

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp

Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#20 - 2014-11-11 22:09:05 UTC
James Baboli wrote:
elitatwo wrote:
Missile damage is out of whack.

Volley damage of 3x heavy missile launchers on an unbonused Blackbird is supposed to do 613hp damage but she only does about 200hp beta-damage?

Whaddap with that?

Its called resists and damage mitigation?


INB4 "but I can't even hit for full alpha on same size target with no resist and not moving."
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