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Gallente Prime
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Jace Sarice
#61 - 2014-11-15 03:23:26 UTC
Regardless of the technicalities, the important part of this topic is the cultural weight that goes along with being Caldari. Whether someone is a full citizen, an honorary citizen, or an immigrant resident - there are expectations if you are going to live in the State outside of the hubs like Jita.
Jvpiter
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#62 - 2014-11-15 04:12:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Jvpiter
And there is no means to enforce these expectations and standards, short of monitoring a person around the clock and recording and analyzing their every thought.


Diversity and rebellion will find a home in any culture, and isn't absent even in seemingly most culturally homogenous areas of The State.


Even within Rome there were those who fancied themselves as Greek.

Call me Joe.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#63 - 2014-11-15 06:18:47 UTC
You don't enforce a culture from the top down, Jvpiter. You enforce it from the bottom up - everyone knows that.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Tyrel Toov
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#64 - 2014-11-15 07:42:39 UTC
Jvpiter wrote:
And there is no means to enforce these expectations and standards, short of monitoring a person around the clock and recording and analyzing their every thought.


Diversity and rebellion will find a home in any culture, and isn't absent even in seemingly most culturally homogenous areas of The State.


Even within Rome there were those who fancied themselves as Greek.

Where is Rome, and what is a Greek?

I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.
Jvpiter
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#65 - 2014-11-15 13:26:18 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
You don't enforce a culture from the top down, Jvpiter. You enforce it from the bottom up - everyone knows that.



Indeed. The strongest sense of cultural solidarity comes out of community and institutions like education and public service.


In spite of a strong cultural bond amongst members of a population, there are those who would be exceptions and will reject the culture partially or outright.


You cannot enforce a culture, period. Perhaps most will conform, but people are too diverse.

Call me Joe.
Jvpiter
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#66 - 2014-11-15 13:32:10 UTC
Tyrel Toov wrote:
Where is Rome, and what is a Greek?


New Eden, such as it is named, is not the first Eden. Or else, why would it be "new"?


From what little I understand, the cultures I mention are nonexistent here, but the dichotomy between them should be a very familiar theme based on what we observe in this corner of the universe.

Call me Joe.
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#67 - 2014-11-15 13:39:11 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
You don't enforce a culture from the top down, Jvpiter. You enforce it from the bottom up - everyone knows that.


The Amarrian Theocracy would go against that notion, it's very much a trickle down of power and influence from a single revered figure. The few keep the majority in line using the sway of religion, it's sustained through the masses by illusion and fear, but it's constant pressure from their superiors that revitalise the hold such rhetoric has.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
Vizage
Capital Allied Industrial Distribution
#68 - 2014-11-15 20:43:36 UTC
Caellach Marellus wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
You don't enforce a culture from the top down, Jvpiter. You enforce it from the bottom up - everyone knows that.


The Amarrian Theocracy would go against that notion, it's very much a trickle down of power and influence from a single revered figure. The few keep the majority in line using the sway of religion, it's sustained through the masses by illusion and fear, but it's constant pressure from their superiors that revitalise the hold such rhetoric has.


Except the culture doesn't stem from the Empress, it stems from the Theology which requires the tacit approval/belief of the people before it can work it's way up.

A figurehead isn't the font of the culture it exists because of it.
Saiden Dia
#69 - 2014-11-15 20:45:52 UTC
Caellach Marellus wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
You don't enforce a culture from the top down, Jvpiter. You enforce it from the bottom up - everyone knows that.


The Amarrian Theocracy would go against that notion, it's very much a trickle down of power and influence from a single revered figure. The few keep the majority in line using the sway of religion, it's sustained through the masses by illusion and fear, but it's constant pressure from their superiors that revitalise the hold such rhetoric has.


When you say that it is "sustained through the masses" you are essentially agreeing with the notion that it is enforced from the bottom up. It is not created that way, orchestrated that way, but it is certainly enforced that way.
Jvpiter
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#70 - 2014-11-15 23:16:38 UTC


Dynamic, living systems are not just one-dimensional caricatures.


Any theocracy has both bottom-up enforcement, because belief permeates the culture and people perpetuate and strengthen these beliefs, and top-down enforcement through some form of totalitarian or authoritarian governing body that will quash dissent and silence rebellion.


Amarrian theology is not simply cultural, which would account for bottom-up conformance.


Religion prescribes how the the Imperial State itself will operate, affecting top-down conformance in a bureaucratic and military sense.


Call me Joe.
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#71 - 2014-11-15 23:16:59 UTC
Saiden Dia wrote:
Caellach Marellus wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
You don't enforce a culture from the top down, Jvpiter. You enforce it from the bottom up - everyone knows that.


The Amarrian Theocracy would go against that notion, it's very much a trickle down of power and influence from a single revered figure. The few keep the majority in line using the sway of religion, it's sustained through the masses by illusion and fear, but it's constant pressure from their superiors that revitalise the hold such rhetoric has.


When you say that it is "sustained through the masses" you are essentially agreeing with the notion that it is enforced from the bottom up. It is not created that way, orchestrated that way, but it is certainly enforced that way.


No, sustained, not enforced. There's a difference.

If they don't have the dogma coming down from above, there's nothing there. The illusion and fear that sustains the masses comes from that dogma.

It's trickle down, but when it hits base level, so long as it's constantly fed in, it self sustains. Remove the source and the whole system collapses, the bottom level however is too big to fail.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
Vizage
Capital Allied Industrial Distribution
#72 - 2014-11-16 00:26:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Vizage
Jvpiter wrote:


Dynamic, living systems are not just one-dimensional caricatures.


Any theocracy has both bottom-up enforcement, because belief permeates the culture and people perpetuate and strengthen these beliefs, and top-down enforcement through some form of totalitarian or authoritarian governing body that will quash dissent and silence rebellion.


Amarrian theology is not simply cultural, which would account for bottom-up conformance.


Religion prescribes how the the Imperial State itself will operate, affecting top-down conformance in a bureaucratic and military sense.




Calling a top-down or bottom-up system a "one dimensional Charicature" is straw man at the best of times. These systems are incredibly complex and adapting models that are defined by their source. That being said a Theocracy is inherently bottom-up as all power stems from the beliefs of the people.

One only needs to ask a simple question to understand where the Theocracy draws is power.

"Would the Amarr empire continue to function if the population of the empire woke up tomorrow and no longer held their religious beliefs? "

The answer is obviously no. The legitimacy of the government and leadership would immediately collapse if people no longer believed in the divine right of the Empress and the Amarr in government.

Top-down systems of government do not require this kind of tacit approval and are usually dictatorial in nature. This is usually indicative of police-states and the like, that can actively enforce a stable sovereignty with or without the approval of those whom they rule.
Jvpiter
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#73 - 2014-11-16 02:52:10 UTC


Vizage,


I find your assessment to be fair. Excellent point.

Call me Joe.
Vizage
Capital Allied Industrial Distribution
#74 - 2014-11-16 02:55:23 UTC
Jvpiter wrote:


Vizage,


I find your assessment to be fair. Excellent point.



By the Maker, you just earned so much respect from me. This place needs more people like you.

Sincerely
-K
Kale Silence
Doomheim
#75 - 2014-11-19 20:11:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Kale Silence
Quote:
Series of Comments regarding citizens of the State and whatever.


Wow. Shocked All this fuss over little ol' me?

Boys! Calm down and make a line! Roll I prefer to be asked in person.

Also, I'm not Caldari. Just sayin'.
Tyrel Toov
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#76 - 2014-11-19 22:43:00 UTC
Kale Silence wrote:
Quote:
Series of Comments regarding citizens of the State and whatever.


Wow. Shocked All this fuss over little ol' me?

Boys! Calm down and make a line! Roll I prefer to be asked in person.

Also, I'm not Caldari. Just sayin'.

Who are you and why do we care if you're Caldari or not?

I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.
Utremi Fasolasi
La Dolce Vita
#77 - 2014-11-20 04:20:10 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
You don't enforce a culture from the top down, Jvpiter. You enforce it from the bottom up - everyone knows that.



I'm no enforcer of Caldari culture but I've done my share of embracing it occasionally from the bottom up, if you get my drift. And occasionally top down too, us Gallente are versatile.

Roleplaying for someone with a kink for Caldari protocol can be a bit mentally exhausting though..
Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#78 - 2014-11-20 05:50:52 UTC
Utremi Fasolasi wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
You don't enforce a culture from the top down, Jvpiter. You enforce it from the bottom up - everyone knows that.



I'm no enforcer of Caldari culture but I've done my share of embracing it occasionally from the bottom up, if you get my drift. And occasionally top down too, us Gallente are versatile.

Roleplaying for someone with a kink for Caldari protocol can be a bit mentally exhausting though..


Lots and lots of paperwork. And also a queue number. And a number of lawyers.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
Tyrel Toov
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#79 - 2014-11-20 05:54:29 UTC
Elmund Egivand wrote:
Utremi Fasolasi wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
You don't enforce a culture from the top down, Jvpiter. You enforce it from the bottom up - everyone knows that.



I'm no enforcer of Caldari culture but I've done my share of embracing it occasionally from the bottom up, if you get my drift. And occasionally top down too, us Gallente are versatile.

Roleplaying for someone with a kink for Caldari protocol can be a bit mentally exhausting though..


Lots and lots of paperwork. And also a queue number. And a number of lawyers.

and done in an emotionless, overly formal, manner.

I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#80 - 2014-11-20 06:58:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Pieter Tuulinen
Tyrel Toov wrote:
Elmund Egivand wrote:
Utremi Fasolasi wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
You don't enforce a culture from the top down, Jvpiter. You enforce it from the bottom up - everyone knows that.



I'm no enforcer of Caldari culture but I've done my share of embracing it occasionally from the bottom up, if you get my drift. And occasionally top down too, us Gallente are versatile.

Roleplaying for someone with a kink for Caldari protocol can be a bit mentally exhausting though..


Lots and lots of paperwork. And also a queue number. And a number of lawyers.

and done in an emotionless, overly formal, manner.

You need to go watch "know your Caldari - an FDU primer" as it seems you have no idea. The Deteis do a reasonable job of pretending to be emotionless but us Civire don't even try.

You know, speaking as an actual enforcer of Caldari culture and all, I like to think I penetrated a fair selection of "targets" in Gallente space.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.