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Musings of a Hisec Miner

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Author
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#41 - 2014-11-12 21:31:44 UTC
Threads like this one are literally the reason CODE. exists.
Iain Cariaba
#42 - 2014-11-12 21:47:22 UTC
Gadget Helmsdottir wrote:
Havenard wrote:
So you hate the New Order cowards, nothing new there. Most players do. Even though I'm not a miner, I too wonder why CCP allows a group which activity is despised by most of the player base to continue to exist across the years. In fact they have banned people for less than that, and if anyone thinks banning is too much of a punishment they always have the resource of "asking them to stop" as its described in detail in the EULA.


Honestly, think of them as the "bad guy" wrestlers. The dudes you love to hate. There might be some decent peeps behind the eye-patch. They're playing a role that belongs in EvE. Real pirates preyed on those who couldn't fight back... and still do. So as much as I don't like the idiocy that is CODE., I don't really have a problem with gankers per se. Gankers do add content to the game, even if it's content some would rather avoid. And at its heart, EvE is about building and destroying. You know where on that line the gankers sit.

If a player or group crosses the line into harassment (see CODE. again), then they should get duly punished. Attacking or ransoming someone that's not armed IS piracy, it IS cowardly, but it CAN be profitable, and it's part of the game lore and mechanics. Working as intended, even if it is unfortunate for some.

--Gadget

You see, you get the wrong impression when you consider CODE. to be pirates. It makes much more sense if you consider them to be the Mob. They come into your place of business, in this case an asteroid belt or trade lane, and tell you to pay a fee, or else. So, you either pay the fee and go about your business, you protect yourself from the Mob, or you get the 'else.'
Havenard
Havenard Corporation
#43 - 2014-11-12 22:01:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Havenard
Iain Cariaba wrote:
You see, you get the wrong impression when you consider CODE. to be pirates. It makes much more sense if you consider them to be the Mob. They come into your place of business, in this case an asteroid belt or trade lane, and tell you to pay a fee, or else. So, you either pay the fee and go about your business, you protect yourself from the Mob, or you get the 'else.'

This is incorrect, because the fee does not grant you protection. According to CODE itself they don't necessarily despise miners, but any form of AFK income activity. They will gank you, with a permit or not, if they believe you are AFK, if they see you using autopilot for hauling, or anything like that.

And its not piracy, its not for profit. They won't gank a hauler for the cargo or any other ship for its bling modules. They will simply do it because you are AFK.
Iain Cariaba
#44 - 2014-11-12 22:04:02 UTC
Havenard wrote:
Iain Cariaba wrote:
You see, you get the wrong impression when you consider CODE. to be pirates. It makes much more sense if you consider them to be the Mob. They come into your place of business, in this case an asteroid belt or trade lane, and tell you to pay a fee, or else. So, you either pay the fee and go about your business, you protect yourself from the Mob, or you get the 'else.'

This is incorrect, because the fee does not grant you protection. According to CODE itself they don't necessarily despise miners, but any form of AFK income activity. They will gank you, with a permit or not, if they believe you are AFK, if they see you using autopilot for hauling, or anything like that.

Of course paying protection to the Mob means they won't come back and demand more money for the same protection.

Same concept.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#45 - 2014-11-12 22:07:13 UTC
Havenard wrote:
Iain Cariaba wrote:
You see, you get the wrong impression when you consider CODE. to be pirates. It makes much more sense if you consider them to be the Mob. They come into your place of business, in this case an asteroid belt or trade lane, and tell you to pay a fee, or else. So, you either pay the fee and go about your business, you protect yourself from the Mob, or you get the 'else.'

This is incorrect, because the fee does not grant you protection. According to CODE itself they don't necessarily despise miners, but any form of AFK income activity. They will gank you, with a permit or not, if they believe you are AFK, if they see you using autopilot for hauling, or anything like that.

And its not piracy, its not for profit. They won't gank a hauler for the cargo or any other ship for its bling modules. They will simply do it because you are AFK.


Isn't a protection racket essentially afk money making? They should gank themselves on that basis!
Havenard
Havenard Corporation
#46 - 2014-11-12 22:07:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Havenard
Iain Cariaba wrote:
Havenard wrote:
Iain Cariaba wrote:
You see, you get the wrong impression when you consider CODE. to be pirates. It makes much more sense if you consider them to be the Mob. They come into your place of business, in this case an asteroid belt or trade lane, and tell you to pay a fee, or else. So, you either pay the fee and go about your business, you protect yourself from the Mob, or you get the 'else.'

This is incorrect, because the fee does not grant you protection. According to CODE itself they don't necessarily despise miners, but any form of AFK income activity. They will gank you, with a permit or not, if they believe you are AFK, if they see you using autopilot for hauling, or anything like that.

Of course paying protection to the Mob means they won't come back and demand more money for the same protection.

Same concept.


Did you read any of it?
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#47 - 2014-11-12 22:08:13 UTC
They are ideological terrorists with a protection racket on the side.
Havenard
Havenard Corporation
#48 - 2014-11-12 22:10:24 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Isn't a protection racket essentially afk money making? They should gank themselves on that basis!

Yeah, and they probably AFK mine too with their alts, they are plain hypocrite in their "beliefs".
Iain Cariaba
#49 - 2014-11-12 22:36:58 UTC
Havenard wrote:
Iain Cariaba wrote:
Havenard wrote:
Iain Cariaba wrote:
You see, you get the wrong impression when you consider CODE. to be pirates. It makes much more sense if you consider them to be the Mob. They come into your place of business, in this case an asteroid belt or trade lane, and tell you to pay a fee, or else. So, you either pay the fee and go about your business, you protect yourself from the Mob, or you get the 'else.'

This is incorrect, because the fee does not grant you protection. According to CODE itself they don't necessarily despise miners, but any form of AFK income activity. They will gank you, with a permit or not, if they believe you are AFK, if they see you using autopilot for hauling, or anything like that.

Of course paying protection to the Mob means they won't come back and demand more money for the same protection.

Same concept.


Did you read any of it?

Do you understand the concept of sarcasm?
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#50 - 2014-11-12 22:40:11 UTC
The whole CODE thing is an attempt at justifying blowing up unarmed ships as something 'noble' in my opinion. It's a giant in-game trolling session using the rules to their most to get away with causing annoyance. They do it very well too so meh, whatever. I lost barges to them and simply bought another each time (isk tanking if you will...). I always made more than I lost so didn't really care, it's when people complain about it that their real fun starts!
Kaerakh
Obscure Joke Implied
#51 - 2014-11-12 23:19:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaerakh
Jsuelieta wrote:

-Snipped to save lives-

What do these stories have to do with each other? Well, nothing really,

Then why post it if it's irrelevant?


but here's a third and final tale before I get into the part of the topic that's more interesting.

[i]Please[/i], my hair is falling out from old age.


After being ganked I've started being a bit more cautious,

Well that's a start.


only piloting a Procurer when mining, keeping a closer eye on local, ect. But I've also started to look closely at the people -in- local, beyond their current criminal status.

You weren't already?


What I've found is people paying out to this New Order

Nice name calling.


to keep from getting bumped and/or ganked in hisec systems while mining. I followed a link to a site, which I won't be providing here,

I love evidence that I have to trust on your word alone exists. It's really the best kind.


and read up on this New Order. What I found really kind of ticked me off, but it did get me thinking about certain things.

Because clearly you weren't if you only recently started using intel tools everyone else has been using sicne the game's inception.


Now I'll get into the interesting part of things:

Half past the better part of infinity.


First, I'm going to get a brief rant out of my system, so if you don't want to particularly se-

Skipped, holy Amarr space Jesus, my character limit jumped up by over a thousand.


So now let's get into something a bit thought provoking on something briefly mentioned within it:

Then maybe your thread should have been led with this?


the idea that EVE is based on industry, rather than straight PVP.

And a dog barks.


There's a reason EVE has corporations rather than guilds or clans,

Yeah, stylistic flavoring. They have the same net effect on the game.


and that's because everything we do as players, be it mining, protecting the miners, being pirates, running missions, hauling freight, producing completed modules and ships, are all industries. Interestingly, CCP has hit the nail on the head on pretty much all of these things, as if you put these things on a planet and made them ground vehicles, you'd actually mirror real life almost perfectly.

Sign me up for the pirate industry. Sounds really cutthroat like Wall Street.


Taking mining as an example, or resource collection as a whole to be even better, if we divide it up into hisec and low/nullsec work, we can compare it accurately to real life resource collections. Hisec mining is much like being a farmer, or it used to be at any rate before people started hating really hard on hisec mining. Being a farmer is fairly safe work, you invest in your land, equipment and seed, sit around a lot while the crops grow, collect them, sell them and repeat. You can generally expect to live day to day and not worry about much. Hisec NPC rats are the minor annoyances that come with the job, such as watering and fertilizing the plants. Then can come disasters, like fires, or if you're into livestock, poachers, wild predators or zealous animal rights activists undoing your hard work and costing you a buttload of money. These are the suicide gankers. But at the end of the day, a farmer in the real world and a miner in EVE are still the start of an endless and essential cycle.

Nice fantasy.


--------------------------------------------------------------Continued in next post-----------------------------------------------------------------------------



Ok, so there's no actual point to the first post. The closest thing to it is that you're trying to paint a pretty picture of miners being these plant eating herbivores that don't want to harm anyone ever never ever. This simply isn't the case. Miners contribute vast amounts of resources to the EVE economy and do what ever possible to never take any of those resources out, which causes inflation. PVP and ganking are the only reliefs to this waterfall of a faucet.

Glad we cleared that up. I'm going to look at your next post.
Kaerakh
Obscure Joke Implied
#52 - 2014-11-12 23:38:48 UTC
Jsuelieta wrote:


-Lives saved.-


, but either way it's all about sitting there and waiting.

Sweet, glad we had to waste a year explaining something everyone knows.


How about the other industries? Well, I've also worked as a long-ha-

We really don't need to know your life story to conclude this. Oh, by the way I'm back up to 2000 characters now.


Even stopping at a rest stop can have someone sneaking in and stealing your crap. The EVE equivalency is pirates and gate camps, which can cause loss of ship, freight, pod and/or extorted ISK. Once again, though, hauling freight is an important and required service in both EVE and reality. Boring as all get out, not at all glamorous, but someone has to do it.

Oh, I completely agree. Someone has to slow down those miners and help kill some mineral production at the source.

Oh, you meant freighters. How bearish of you.


Construction is naturally tied hand-in-hand with mining and hauling-

Glad you figured out 2+2=4.


The biggest difference between reality and EVE in this sense is that someone who specializes in production can often be doing something else at the same time, or not be online at all. It's still a 100% required function, as new players (or at least new characters) appear all the time, and old ones keep getting their stuff blown up and need new. Even if you get all your materials from recycling old product, someone still has to have the skill to make something new from it. Speaking of recycling, garbage collection, or salvaging, falls in line here, as well. Let's face it, a Noctis, or any ship fitted with salvagers or salvager drones, serves the role of a garbage truck.

Glad to see that you look down upon my profession of interstellar grave robbing.

But more on point, you should analyze the fact that you're completely glazing over the need for materials to be destroyed/removed.

Make a 15 post long thread on that topic.


Where to pirates and miner bodyguards come in? Well, pirates are pirates, really, and even that is an industry.

That was a riveting analysis. Wish the rest of your post could be anywhere near so concise.


-Snipped to save lives.-


Now why did I tell you all that, you may ask?

Yes, why?


Well, I tell you because no matter what you're doing, you're part of the cycle.

Gasp!


Even if you do nothing but run missions in hisec from the moment you start to the day the universe implodes, you're part of the cycle, because you buy things.

Redundant statement 1.


You buy ammo for your weapons and new ships.

2


You sell the things you find or reprocess them and put them back into the cycle that way.

3


If you join the game and decide to do nothing but kill miners, you're part of the cycle, creating the demand for the better protections that better stuff can offer and the people to use that stuff, and the very miners you kill are the next step in the chain of supply and demand, because it all starts exactly where it ends, and keeps going for eternity.

4, but more like 4,5,6,7,8,9 as you run on.


Going back to the first story I told about being ganked,

This is getting regressive.


after I thought about it and realized the cycle of industry, I honestly couldn't bring myself to be mad.

This monstrosity of a tl;dr says otherwise.


Getting attacked breaks up the monotony of an incredibly boring task, though one I take up willingly, and at least adds a bit of challenge to the game. To an extent I even agree with a bit of the philosophy of the gankers, specifically that bot-miners are a plague, though not so much those that might AFK, as honestly? I was 'AFK' in my load truck at the quarry. I was reading a book, listening to music, doing just about anything I could to avoid going to sleep while awaiting the time to go move rocks from A to B. It's dull, but essential, work. I don't appreciate the loss of resources for having my ships blown to scrap, but that's the price of admission.

Great.


I saw someone who'd gotten a bunch of ganking groups together and offered blanket protection on a daily-fee basis, and y'know what? That's an industry, too. It's not unlike going through a toll booth on the highway, it's irritating and costs you money, but it's something that's not going anywhere, and the alternative is much less pleasant.


--------------------------------------------------------------Continued in next post-----------------------------------------------------------------------------



Yet again no point. This is like a filibuster.
Schwartzbrot
Havenard Corporation
#53 - 2014-11-12 23:54:01 UTC
Kaerakh wrote:
Yet again no point. This is like a filibuster.


Maybe you could find a point if you stopped avaliating sentences separately and read the text as a whole like you were thought in school. Your attitude is making even less of a point than OP's post.
Kaerakh
Obscure Joke Implied
#54 - 2014-11-12 23:54:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaerakh
Jsuelieta wrote:
To conclude this series of somewhat disjointed thoughts,

Somewhat?


and address the people that just absolutely hate mining and miners for whatever reason,

Because they have a pathological need to do repetitive tasks such as;

devaluing isk(I'm guilty as charged by the way)

devaluing resources

and avoiding risk at all costs because they're special snowflakes?


if you were to remove that aspect from EVE, you would end up with a game that wasn't EVE.

Ah [i]FINALLY[/i] the [b][u]POINT[/u][/b].


No matter what, we all provide content in some way, shape or form for each other, because the game itself provides very little for us.

Want a cookie?


We have to set our own goals and follow our own paths to those goals,

Did you learn that from the trailer?


because if we don't all we've got is a virtual job that we pay someone else for, and honestly if I wanted that I'd play Minecraft.

Isn't that what you already do?


At least here, in EVE, when I go mining, it's a step in the direction of my goal, and the ore I sell helps someone else down their path, and continues along the cycle of industry.

Cool story, I like shooting sleepers and picking over their dead remains so I can go PVP.


From here on is just going to be my thoughts on how mining might be improved to make things a little more interesting and friendly to those who are just starting in the field, rather than being afraid of getting blown up right away the second they take their new mining barge for a spin. I know not everyone will like this part, but it at least offers a bit of concession that we hisec miners expect some degree of safety

Seriously? That big long spiel about anything and everything not even and only barely related was a lead up to this?


First off, addressing rookie systems, let miners get used to things there in a risk-free environment, but remove the profit. Only put ores that can be used for civilian module blueprints, or make Veldspar a rare thing to see in the belts, enough to get starting miners a bit of ISK. On the next step, divide hisec into tiers, a bit like how it is already with what ores are availible. In 1.0-0.9 systems, disable all strip mining and mining foreman modules, let the mining frigates, 'normal' frigates, cruisers, the Veldnaught and whoever else might use normal, relatively inefficient mining lasers reign, also force Orca hangars to remain closed off while in this area. In 0.8-0.7, allow mining barges to use their strip miners, but not exhumers, and permit orcas the use of their hangar, but not mining foreman modules. 0.6-0.5 allow everyone to do their thing normally. This at least allows semi-safe space for everyone to do what they will while tiering hisec so the greater rewards come with greater risk, as the pirates know exactly where to find the big targets without barring anyone passage through any systems. You want better ore? Better get out to lowsec.

Interesting, why couldn't you just say that?


On the PVP side of things, popping a miner in 0.9+ would have to carry some pretty hefty penalties, as these miners are likely not making enough ISK off their work to even cover the cost of insuring their ship. I'm not saying turn PVP off in this space, but certainly cause the 'kill-on-sight' status of CONCORD to last much longer than lower sec space. If penalizing the PvPer is a bit much to swallow, then have a claus in insurance state that loss of a mining ship in, say, 0.7+ grants a new ship of the same type in the nearest station, sans fittings, rather than an ISK payout. At least that way miners just getting their feet wet don't get scared off the game entirely, and still makes those exhumers tasty targets for those that was to suicide gank in hisec. Just an idea, I know most people won't like it, but I figured I'd throw it out there.

You're right, i don't but you could have just had these two paragraphs and been done. Jesus Christ.


My name is Jsuelieta, I am a hisec miner with nullsec goals and supporter of industry in whatever form it may take. If you actually read this through, I thank you for your time and patience.



Ok, so I'm going to give an example of a concise post.

I think you're right that more people need to get out of highsec, but you're so hopelessly wrong about how to do it. This exact same topic has been discussed ad nausueam with little result. Your solution is no better than theirs.
Kaerakh
Obscure Joke Implied
#55 - 2014-11-12 23:56:16 UTC
Schwartzbrot wrote:
Kaerakh wrote:
Yet again no point. This is like a filibuster.


Maybe you could find a point if you stopped avaliating sentences separately and read the text as a whole like you were thought in school. Your attitude is making even less of a point than OP's post.



Glad you don't agree with me, but unlike you I'm not going to tell you to shut up because I don't like what you're saying.
Schwartzbrot
Havenard Corporation
#56 - 2014-11-13 00:05:29 UTC
Kaerakh wrote:
Glad you don't agree with me, but unlike you I'm not going to tell you to shut up because I don't like what you're saying.

Says the guy with the disrespectful behaviour. In case you haven't noticed, you are not expressing any opinion, you are simply denigrating every line OP's said. If you want to retort or disagree at least do it right like everyone else has done so far.
Kaerakh
Obscure Joke Implied
#57 - 2014-11-13 00:10:31 UTC
Schwartzbrot wrote:
Kaerakh wrote:
Glad you don't agree with me, but unlike you I'm not going to tell you to shut up because I don't like what you're saying.

Says the guy with the disrespectful behaviour. In case you haven't noticed, you are not expressing any opinion, you are simply denigrating every line OP's said. If you want to retort or disagree at least do it right like everyone else has done so far.


Great, now that you've had your high horse moment. Perhaps you could respond to my non-existent point? Instead of ironically doing the very thing that you're accusing me of.
Schwartzbrot
Havenard Corporation
#58 - 2014-11-13 00:16:26 UTC
Kaerakh wrote:
Great, now that you've had your high horse moment. Perhaps you could respond to my non-existent point? Instead of ironically doing the very thing that you're accusing me of.


Oh but I'm not, I'm just giving you your well deserved realily check, and that by the way was my response to your nonexistent point.
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#59 - 2014-11-13 00:50:56 UTC
Quote:
3. Ranting is prohibited.

A rant is a post that is often filled with angry and counterproductive comments. A free exchange of ideas is essential to building a strong sense of community and is helpful in development of the game and community. Rants are disruptive, and incite flaming and trolling. Please post your thoughts in a concise and clear manner while avoiding going off on rambling tangents.

Thread closed.

ISD Dorrim Barstorlode

Senior Lead

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department

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