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[Rhea] Introducing the Bowhead

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Dwissi
Miners Delight Reborn
#1601 - 2014-11-24 15:27:30 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Dwissi wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Why would we not have it apply?


Simply to prevent this '...It may find applications in other parts of space (especially because of the reduced jump fatigue), but we aren't really worried about hitting anything outside of the high-sec application.' Your and other peoples statement should worry CCP by now that its application will be to circumvent the jump changes.

Edit: The usage of 'we' as a player not being part of CCP actually made me think a bit...


We would still use it without the bonus so removing it does nothing.



Excellent - so we others can take that as an agreement then - no jump fatigue bonus required :)

Proud designer of glasses for geeky dovakins

Before someone complains again: grr everyone

Greed is the death of loyalty
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1602 - 2014-11-24 15:40:54 UTC
Dwissi wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Dwissi wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Why would we not have it apply?


Simply to prevent this '...It may find applications in other parts of space (especially because of the reduced jump fatigue), but we aren't really worried about hitting anything outside of the high-sec application.' Your and other peoples statement should worry CCP by now that its application will be to circumvent the jump changes.

Edit: The usage of 'we' as a player not being part of CCP actually made me think a bit...


We would still use it without the bonus so removing it does nothing.



Excellent - so we others can take that as an agreement then - no jump fatigue bonus required :)


I wonder, why are you so desperate for this ship to not be used outside of incursion running?
Myrkul Nightshade
Doomheim
#1603 - 2014-11-24 16:11:44 UTC

Why not keep the jump fatige bonus, and let the community decide what they want to use the ship for?

It's one thing to design a ship with a purpose in mind. It's another thing to try and bar that ship from serving any purpose other than the one you explicitly intended. That's doesn't appear to be the philosophy of Eve.
Dwissi
Miners Delight Reborn
#1604 - 2014-11-24 16:17:49 UTC
Myrkul Nightshade wrote:

Why not keep the jump fatige bonus, and let the community decide what they want to use the ship for?

It's one thing to design a ship with a purpose in mind. It's another thing to try and bar that ship from serving any purpose other than the one you explicitly intended. That's doesn't appear to be the philosophy of Eve.


Because the ship with fatigue bonus will just eliminate certain aspects of the jump changes - which isn't the purpose of it. I read and watched the thread a long time and more and more it went into the usual direction: change stuff to the good of null players mainly. Capitals are restricted as well can't be used in high sec - so having it the other way round for certain ships isn't a bad thing either.

Proud designer of glasses for geeky dovakins

Before someone complains again: grr everyone

Greed is the death of loyalty
Barton Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1605 - 2014-11-24 20:08:31 UTC
baltec1 wrote:

Because as we showed earlier if you have a large number of ships using the bowhead is faster. You also cannot scan the fits of the ships inside the hold so nobody but you will know how they are fitted.


Unable to scan is a questionable concept as the blockade runners show. Also you are basically saying that freighters should have only 150-300k m3 cargo (3x bs vs bowhead and 3x dst vs freighter), because you can "show" that 30 freighters with 10 logi can be close to being safe as a dst mwdcloaking trough highsec.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1606 - 2014-11-24 21:12:19 UTC
Dwissi wrote:
Myrkul Nightshade wrote:

Why not keep the jump fatige bonus, and let the community decide what they want to use the ship for?

It's one thing to design a ship with a purpose in mind. It's another thing to try and bar that ship from serving any purpose other than the one you explicitly intended. That's doesn't appear to be the philosophy of Eve.


Because the ship with fatigue bonus will just eliminate certain aspects of the jump changes - which isn't the purpose of it. I read and watched the thread a long time and more and more it went into the usual direction: change stuff to the good of null players mainly. Capitals are restricted as well can't be used in high sec - so having it the other way round for certain ships isn't a bad thing either.


We didn't ask for any changes. Also given that this ship is not a combat capital but a freighter it make perfect sense for it to act like freighters which are not restricted in any way.
Dwissi
Miners Delight Reborn
#1607 - 2014-11-24 22:06:38 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Dwissi wrote:
Myrkul Nightshade wrote:

Why not keep the jump fatige bonus, and let the community decide what they want to use the ship for?

It's one thing to design a ship with a purpose in mind. It's another thing to try and bar that ship from serving any purpose other than the one you explicitly intended. That's doesn't appear to be the philosophy of Eve.


Because the ship with fatigue bonus will just eliminate certain aspects of the jump changes - which isn't the purpose of it. I read and watched the thread a long time and more and more it went into the usual direction: change stuff to the good of null players mainly. Capitals are restricted as well can't be used in high sec - so having it the other way round for certain ships isn't a bad thing either.


We didn't ask for any changes. Also given that this ship is not a combat capital but a freighter it make perfect sense for it to act like freighters which are not restricted in any way.


The word perfect is wrong - it doesnt make perfect sense when it has more value as an alternative to avoid jump fatigue than as a high sec ship. But it of course makes perfect sense for what you would like to have as null player. And thats again why it does not make perfect sense at all. Without a bonus it will immediately only be interesting for the intended target group - mainly high sec dwellers.

Proud designer of glasses for geeky dovakins

Before someone complains again: grr everyone

Greed is the death of loyalty
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1608 - 2014-11-25 00:06:45 UTC
Dwissi wrote:
Because the ship with fatigue bonus will just eliminate certain aspects of the jump changes - which isn't the purpose of it. I read and watched the thread a long time and more and more it went into the usual direction: change stuff to the good of null players mainly. Capitals are restricted as well can't be used in high sec - so having it the other way round for certain ships isn't a bad thing either.

Except it won't. We already discussed this many pages back. It does nothing that can't be done already more efficiently in another ship.
Dwissi
Miners Delight Reborn
#1609 - 2014-11-25 06:17:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Dwissi
Rowells wrote:
Dwissi wrote:
Because the ship with fatigue bonus will just eliminate certain aspects of the jump changes - which isn't the purpose of it. I read and watched the thread a long time and more and more it went into the usual direction: change stuff to the good of null players mainly. Capitals are restricted as well can't be used in high sec - so having it the other way round for certain ships isn't a bad thing either.

Except it won't. We already discussed this many pages back. It does nothing that can't be done already more efficiently in another ship.


Which is why no bonus would not change a thing if you would be right about it - but the reactions to the suggestion show already the opposite

Proud designer of glasses for geeky dovakins

Before someone complains again: grr everyone

Greed is the death of loyalty
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1610 - 2014-11-25 07:20:08 UTC
Dwissi wrote:
Which is why no bonus would not change a thing if you would be right about it - but the reactions to the suggestion show already the opposite

So, because this bonus will not enact the single scenario you have come up with, we need to stomp out any other potential uses before they happen? Because of a single scenario?

The reactions are more because of your terrible arguments. People disagreeing with you does not make you right.
Dwissi
Miners Delight Reborn
#1611 - 2014-11-25 09:59:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Dwissi
Rowells wrote:
Dwissi wrote:
Which is why no bonus would not change a thing if you would be right about it - but the reactions to the suggestion show already the opposite

So, because this bonus will not enact the single scenario you have come up with, we need to stomp out any other potential uses before they happen? Because of a single scenario?

The reactions are more because of your terrible arguments. People disagreeing with you does not make you right.


I don't need to be right - i am simply stating one opinion in the pool of many. Removing the jump fatigue bonus will not change the ship itself but simply ensure that its main usage will not be as a null sec ship to circumvent other mechanics. Any other scenario you could think of remains untouched. And so far all the disagreement comes from the same coalition group only ;)

Proud designer of glasses for geeky dovakins

Before someone complains again: grr everyone

Greed is the death of loyalty
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#1612 - 2014-11-25 10:43:59 UTC
Dwissi wrote:

I don't need to be right - i am simply stating one opinion in the pool of many. Removing the jump fatigue bonus will not change the ship itself but simply ensure that its main usage will not be as a null sec ship to circumvent other mechanics. Any other scenario you could think of remains untouched. And so far all the disagreement comes from the same coalition group only ;)

The jump fatigue bonus will remain no matter how much you argue against it.
It may go away in the future or lessen when all industrial ships lose it. But as an Industrial ship it gets the same jump benefit as the rest do.

I may disagree with people like Baltec over tank because they are obviously simply looking for easy ganks and null sec use and want high sec to suffer, but that doesn't mean I'm going to try and ruin any null sec use for it when it's a standard role bonus.
Dwissi
Miners Delight Reborn
#1613 - 2014-11-25 11:56:50 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Dwissi wrote:

I don't need to be right - i am simply stating one opinion in the pool of many. Removing the jump fatigue bonus will not change the ship itself but simply ensure that its main usage will not be as a null sec ship to circumvent other mechanics. Any other scenario you could think of remains untouched. And so far all the disagreement comes from the same coalition group only ;)

The jump fatigue bonus will remain no matter how much you argue against it.
It may go away in the future or lessen when all industrial ships lose it. But as an Industrial ship it gets the same jump benefit as the rest do.

I may disagree with people like Baltec over tank because they are obviously simply looking for easy ganks and null sec use and want high sec to suffer, but that doesn't mean I'm going to try and ruin any null sec use for it when it's a standard role bonus.



Its an ORE ship - not a standard industrial. There are 5 other ORE ships that don't have that bonus as well - the barges. Noctis , Orca and Rorqual are the only ones that have that bonus as well. Its actually debatable if they should have it at all as well.

Proud designer of glasses for geeky dovakins

Before someone complains again: grr everyone

Greed is the death of loyalty
Marcus Tedric
Zebra Corp
Goonswarm Federation
#1614 - 2014-11-25 12:30:04 UTC
Myrkul Nightshade wrote:
I've been wondering about this. It still seems like, if you want to move ships around fast, you would dissassemble them, and then put both them and their modules into a normal freighter. ...................


As noted before - you don't need a Bowhead to do this, it can be done now.

All you need to do is Courier Contracts for fitted ships. The Bowhead's only 'extra' is that you can carry 3 x BS instead of 2.

That said, the Bowhead will make things 'easier', as now you can simply load up from one Ship Hanger and deliver to another - possibly all the ships for a campaign, or a selection for different purposes - all without the extra hassle of contracts.

The Bowhead's introduction may, however, pressage a future change to contracts.......Blink

Don't soil your panties, you guys made a good point, we'll look at the numbers again. - CCP Ytterbium
Jean Luc Lemmont
Carebears on Fire
#1615 - 2014-11-25 14:06:43 UTC
Marcus Tedric wrote:
Myrkul Nightshade wrote:
I've been wondering about this. It still seems like, if you want to move ships around fast, you would dissassemble them, and then put both them and their modules into a normal freighter. ...................


As noted before - you don't need a Bowhead to do this, it can be done now.

All you need to do is Courier Contracts for fitted ships. The Bowhead's only 'extra' is that you can carry 3 x BS instead of 2.

That said, the Bowhead will make things 'easier', as now you can simply load up from one Ship Hanger and deliver to another - possibly all the ships for a campaign, or a selection for different purposes - all without the extra hassle of contracts.

The Bowhead's introduction may, however, pressage a future change to contracts.......Blink



Speaking as a former alliance logistics manager, assembled ship courier contracts need to be a thing. Like yesterday.

Will I get banned for boxing!?!?!

This thread has degenerated to the point it's become like two bald men fighting over a comb. -- Doc Fury

It's bonuses, not boni, you cretins.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1616 - 2014-11-25 16:48:40 UTC
Dwissi wrote:
Rowells wrote:
Dwissi wrote:
Which is why no bonus would not change a thing if you would be right about it - but the reactions to the suggestion show already the opposite

So, because this bonus will not enact the single scenario you have come up with, we need to stomp out any other potential uses before they happen? Because of a single scenario?

The reactions are more because of your terrible arguments. People disagreeing with you does not make you right.


I don't need to be right - i am simply stating one opinion in the pool of many. Removing the jump fatigue bonus will not change the ship itself but simply ensure that its main usage will not be as a null sec ship to circumvent other mechanics. Any other scenario you could think of remains untouched. And so far all the disagreement comes from the same coalition group only ;)


If you get rid of the jump fatigue bonus we will still make heavy use of the ship because it is better than a carrier at the job of moving fleet assets around. I still don't understand why you want to stamp out this ship being used by null players when it is in null that the need for such a ship is at its greatest.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1617 - 2014-11-25 17:43:23 UTC
Dwissi wrote:
Rowells wrote:
Dwissi wrote:
Which is why no bonus would not change a thing if you would be right about it - but the reactions to the suggestion show already the opposite

So, because this bonus will not enact the single scenario you have come up with, we need to stomp out any other potential uses before they happen? Because of a single scenario?

The reactions are more because of your terrible arguments. People disagreeing with you does not make you right.


I don't need to be right - i am simply stating one opinion in the pool of many. Removing the jump fatigue bonus will not change the ship itself but simply ensure that its main usage will not be as a null sec ship to circumvent other mechanics. Any other scenario you could think of remains untouched. And so far all the disagreement comes from the same coalition group only ;)
I've explained this at least twice to you, no matter how you try to look at it, it does not circumvent any of the jump changes whatsoever. It doesnt carry any more ships or equipment than existing ships. So your argument that it will circumvent certain changes holds nothing.

And again, just because you didnt think of the scenario yourself doesnt mean someone will find use in it. So that means its not untouched.
Dwissi
Miners Delight Reborn
#1618 - 2014-11-25 20:47:39 UTC
Rowells wrote:
Dwissi wrote:
Rowells wrote:
Dwissi wrote:
Which is why no bonus would not change a thing if you would be right about it - but the reactions to the suggestion show already the opposite

So, because this bonus will not enact the single scenario you have come up with, we need to stomp out any other potential uses before they happen? Because of a single scenario?

The reactions are more because of your terrible arguments. People disagreeing with you does not make you right.


I don't need to be right - i am simply stating one opinion in the pool of many. Removing the jump fatigue bonus will not change the ship itself but simply ensure that its main usage will not be as a null sec ship to circumvent other mechanics. Any other scenario you could think of remains untouched. And so far all the disagreement comes from the same coalition group only ;)
I've explained this at least twice to you, no matter how you try to look at it, it does not circumvent any of the jump changes whatsoever. It doesnt carry any more ships or equipment than existing ships. So your argument that it will circumvent certain changes holds nothing.

And again, just because you didnt think of the scenario yourself doesnt mean someone will find use in it. So that means its not untouched.


You did not explain anything - you stated your opinion - which i simply dont share.

Proud designer of glasses for geeky dovakins

Before someone complains again: grr everyone

Greed is the death of loyalty
Lady Rift
His Majesty's Privateers
#1619 - 2014-11-25 21:53:37 UTC
Dwissi wrote:
Rowells wrote:
Dwissi wrote:
Rowells wrote:
Dwissi wrote:
Which is why no bonus would not change a thing if you would be right about it - but the reactions to the suggestion show already the opposite

So, because this bonus will not enact the single scenario you have come up with, we need to stomp out any other potential uses before they happen? Because of a single scenario?

The reactions are more because of your terrible arguments. People disagreeing with you does not make you right.


I don't need to be right - i am simply stating one opinion in the pool of many. Removing the jump fatigue bonus will not change the ship itself but simply ensure that its main usage will not be as a null sec ship to circumvent other mechanics. Any other scenario you could think of remains untouched. And so far all the disagreement comes from the same coalition group only ;)
I've explained this at least twice to you, no matter how you try to look at it, it does not circumvent any of the jump changes whatsoever. It doesnt carry any more ships or equipment than existing ships. So your argument that it will circumvent certain changes holds nothing.

And again, just because you didnt think of the scenario yourself doesnt mean someone will find use in it. So that means its not untouched.


You did not explain anything - you stated your opinion - which i simply dont share.



what does this ship do that a freighter cant with courier contracts?
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1620 - 2014-11-25 23:00:44 UTC
Dwissi wrote:
Rowells wrote:
Dwissi wrote:
Rowells wrote:
Dwissi wrote:
Which is why no bonus would not change a thing if you would be right about it - but the reactions to the suggestion show already the opposite

So, because this bonus will not enact the single scenario you have come up with, we need to stomp out any other potential uses before they happen? Because of a single scenario?

The reactions are more because of your terrible arguments. People disagreeing with you does not make you right.


I don't need to be right - i am simply stating one opinion in the pool of many. Removing the jump fatigue bonus will not change the ship itself but simply ensure that its main usage will not be as a null sec ship to circumvent other mechanics. Any other scenario you could think of remains untouched. And so far all the disagreement comes from the same coalition group only ;)
I've explained this at least twice to you, no matter how you try to look at it, it does not circumvent any of the jump changes whatsoever. It doesnt carry any more ships or equipment than existing ships. So your argument that it will circumvent certain changes holds nothing.

And again, just because you didnt think of the scenario yourself doesnt mean someone will find use in it. So that means its not untouched.


You did not explain anything - you stated your opinion - which i simply dont share.

I have explained numerous times in this thread, and others have as well. And I explained to you already, what does this ship do so well that any other ship can't do already?