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[Rhea] Introducing the Bowhead

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baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1101 - 2014-11-14 17:48:06 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Daniel Plain wrote:

please stop strawmanning me. if the proposed ship will be as gankable as it is outlined in the op, the ~best results~ will be achieved by not using it.


You get a 450k ehp tank with a very basic fit. This is 2.6 times larger than a cargo expanded obelisk and is 83k more ehp than a bulkhead fitted obelisk.

If you are in the ship building business then it is going to be safer to transport your products in a bowhead than a t1 freighter. T2 producers will likely make the bowhead their ship of choice for transportation to market.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#1102 - 2014-11-14 17:48:50 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:

This bowhead was created in response to repeated and frequent requests from incursion runners to be able to move multiple ships around highsec....they currently can be moved individually with essentially complete safety. This ship was created to meet that need - not to now create a new risk of freighter ganking similar to that faced in Uedama and Niarja.


Yet again...not just incursion runners.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1103 - 2014-11-14 17:51:53 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:

Wrong. As has been pointed out repeatedly properly set up fleets with capital triage logi are essentially unkillable by weaker fleets. The fights are little more than one sided massacres. The titans of the stronger side have absolutely no risk of blowing up. And the yet the game survives - because there is no requirement that every time a ship undocks it faces material chance of destruction. Example - thousands of hours of flying and I have never lost an incursion battleship. Why? Because even a minimal level of precaution makes them virtually unkillable. Same for Goon titans in Deklein - even a minimal level of precaution and they are close to unkillable.

This bowhead was created in response to repeated and frequent requests from incursion runners to be able to move multiple ships around highsec....they currently can be moved individually with essentially complete safety. This ship was created to meet that need - not to now create a new risk of freighter ganking similar to that faced in Uedama and Niarja.

You are conflating "difficult" with "impossible." Case in point: B-RB saw the death of 75 titans, despite significant numbers of triage and supercarriers supporting these titans. Titans just don't have the sort of invincibility that you think they do. You're talking about a thing whose domain knowledge you increasingly prove that you lack. For your own sake, please discontinue. You're making things up based on a story you've told yourself, and anyone with any real domain knowledge in the matter can instantly tell you're out of your element.

Also, the game does not provide this difficulty to its players by dint of the existence of the hull — it's the efforts of players that have made the difficulty increase. Trying to discount the hundreds of thousands of manhours of work that has gone into building our empire as mere inevitability is, frankly, insulting. You do not get to enjoy the fruits of our labors just because we've made them theoretically possible inside of your own myopic worldview.

No ship currently enjoys invincibility — not even the mighty titan. Bowheads do not get special treatment just because the one use case brought about by official communications was due to a certain group.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Valterra Craven
#1104 - 2014-11-14 17:52:54 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Valterra Craven wrote:

Put another way, had those changes had any real affect then the amount of people in here asking for more HP on the bowhead would be drastically reduced


Go and look at what M0o got up to a decade ago.

Then go look up what gankers were using as gank ships 5 years ago.

You will find there has been a huge change over time.


Right, but his argument was not in relation to what MOo were doing (which if memory serves was in low sec/null sec space). He was talking about recent changes to crimewatch etc that related to hi sec affairs. You are correct there has been a huge change in the game over time, since it was first released. However to say that any change has had a real curbing affect on ganking would need to be backed up with data, and everything I've seen suggests this hasn't happened. The fact that gankers just adapted to whatever change has come like using different ships merely proves that while the game has changed, the order of business has not. And until it does, people are still going to complain about it.
Dreiden Kisada
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1105 - 2014-11-14 17:53:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Dreiden Kisada
Veers Belvar wrote:


Incursion ships die too. Freighters die. Sure titans die - but extremely rarely, and almost always due to gross stupidity. With triage carrier support, they virtually NEVER die. And that's fine. The game doesn't require every ship to be at significant risk of dying whenever it flies. So if Goonswarm titans can mosey around Deklein and NEVER die...that's fine for the game. Same thing if Bowheads would be able to mosey around highsec and NEVER die, the game would be perfectly fine. In no way does Eve require ships to constantly be at risk.



Yes, ships with large EHP buffers supported by triage carriers are nearly unkillable.

That shows more about triage carrier's rep ability than it does anything else.

Edit: To be clear, it'd be really hard to kill a Bowhead if it was supported by triage carriers too. Since you apparently lack any understanding of game mechanics.
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#1106 - 2014-11-14 17:53:10 UTC
Querns wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:
Querns wrote:
There are plenty of uses for the ship outside of the "I need to be able to haul extremely expensive battleships" niche in highsec. The ability to haul fitted ships is just more versatile than this. Trying to pretend that the extreme edge case being less viable when a perfect storm of circumstance arises somehow makes the ship worthless is a pretty terrible position from which to argue.

i am eager to hear of use cases where you would need to haul rigged hulls in hisec so badly that you invest ten digits and a month of training time into it.

Investing a month of training time? The bulk of the training time for the Bowhead is Advanced Spaceship Command 5, a skill which has significant overlap with Freighters, Jump Freighters, and is a gateway to all capital ships. Pretending that it's some sort of burden shouldered only by the Bowhead aspirant is disingenuous.

Also, 1b is hardly a large amount of money. PLEX are a doghair from this value right now. And if you use a little bit of brainpower to limit your exposure, you can safely move around the universe while fearing no gank bogey man.

As for use cases, here's some:

  • Mercenaries transporting large numbers of ships-of-the-line to stage towards a new target.
  • A common way for corporations and alliances to provide ships for their members is to pre-fit them and put them up on contracts. The Bowhead allows them to move the ships easily should the staging point for the corporation/alliance change.
  • Consolidation of personal assets.


With a little creativity, a lot of things come out of the woodwork.

none of the use cases require hauling rigged ships, in fact the first two decidedly favor hauling packaged hulls and assembling in place. as for consolidating items, like i said, i have quite a few hulls lying around myself, but when given the choice of training for, buying and flying the ship (and then selling it once i'm done), i would rather spend a few hours moving them manually and be done.
i will not comment on the cost issue, this is something every EVE player (with a median wallet of 2bil) can decide for himself.

I should buy an Ishtar.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1107 - 2014-11-14 17:54:50 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Valterra Craven wrote:


Right, but his argument was not in relation to what MOo were doing (which if memory serves was in low sec/null sec space)..


No, yours argument is.

Also no, M0o operated in high sec in their most destructive phase.
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#1108 - 2014-11-14 17:55:19 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:
Querns wrote:
There are plenty of uses for the ship outside of the "I need to be able to haul extremely expensive battleships" niche in highsec. The ability to haul fitted ships is just more versatile than this. Trying to pretend that the extreme edge case being less viable when a perfect storm of circumstance arises somehow makes the ship worthless is a pretty terrible position from which to argue.

i am eager to hear of use cases where you would need to haul rigged hulls in hisec so badly that you invest ten digits and a month of training time into it.


Transporting three battleships, two logi boats, a command ship, a hauler with ammo and a scout frigate for incursion running is a little over twice as fast using a bowhead than manually transporting them. (ship list taken from a poster earlier in the thread that stated that incursion runners own these ships. Time was calculated over having to move 30 jumps of an average of 50au)


two times longer (assuming you have one char) and infinitely more safe.

I should buy an Ishtar.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1109 - 2014-11-14 17:57:30 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:



two times longer (assuming you have one char) and infinitely more safe.


If people fit several billion to their ships like they say then no, they are at more risk because the battleship they are flying is much easier to gank than a bowhead.
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#1110 - 2014-11-14 18:00:48 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:



two times longer (assuming you have one char) and infinitely more safe.


If people fit several billion to their ships like they say then no, they are at more risk because the battleship they are flying is much easier to gank than a bowhead.

it is easier to gank once you know which one of the 200 machs passing through is the shiny one. as for the 'accessory' ships, their chance of being ganked is essentially 0 unless they are buried in a giant cargo-coffin with a 'kick me' sign on the rear.

I should buy an Ishtar.
Valterra Craven
#1111 - 2014-11-14 18:01:08 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Valterra Craven wrote:


Right, but his argument was not in relation to what MOo were doing (which if memory serves was in low sec/null sec space)..


No, yours argument is.


If his argument wasn't in relation to hi sec ganking then what relevance would it have in a discussion talking about the HP level of a ship in relation to hi sec ganking?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1112 - 2014-11-14 18:05:08 UTC
Valterra Craven wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Valterra Craven wrote:


Right, but his argument was not in relation to what MOo were doing (which if memory serves was in low sec/null sec space)..


No, yours argument is.


If his argument wasn't in relation to hi sec ganking then what relevance would it have in a discussion talking about the HP level of a ship in relation to hi sec ganking?


Are you trying at this point to not understand what anyone is saying?

I am responding to YOUR argument that ganking hasn't gone down due to changes.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1113 - 2014-11-14 18:07:46 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Daniel Plain wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:



two times longer (assuming you have one char) and infinitely more safe.


If people fit several billion to their ships like they say then no, they are at more risk because the battleship they are flying is much easier to gank than a bowhead.

it is easier to gank once you know which one of the 200 machs passing through is the shiny one. as for the 'accessory' ships, their chance of being ganked is essentially 0 unless they are buried in a giant cargo-coffin with a 'kick me' sign on the rear.


There arn't 200 machs running through a system at any one point. Each and every pirate battleship will be scanned and if gank worthy, blown up in the next system. You are lying to yourself if you think its safer.
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#1114 - 2014-11-14 18:10:53 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:



two times longer (assuming you have one char) and infinitely more safe.


If people fit several billion to their ships like they say then no, they are at more risk because the battleship they are flying is much easier to gank than a bowhead.

it is easier to gank once you know which one of the 200 machs passing through is the shiny one. as for the 'accessory' ships, their chance of being ganked is essentially 0 unless they are buried in a giant cargo-coffin with a 'kick me' sign on the rear.


There arn;t 200 mack running through a system at any one point. Each and every pirate battleship will be scanned and if gank worthy, blown up in the next system. You are lying to yourself if you think its safer.

i prefer to always be honest, with myself at least. as for being ganked, you should ask people who actually run incursions. so far, they seem to be quite fine despite the permanent scanning (and so are my mission alts).

I should buy an Ishtar.
Valterra Craven
#1115 - 2014-11-14 18:13:44 UTC
baltec1 wrote:


I am responding to YOUR argument that ganking hasn't gone down due to changes.


Ok, then lets go off that basis. Relative to amount of players that existed back then compared to now, what data do you have that shows that ganking has gone down? I basically asked him the same question I'm now asking you. Again, I'm not saying you are wrong, just that I haven't seen anything to suggest that this is the case.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1116 - 2014-11-14 18:16:29 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:

i prefer to always be honest, with myself at least. as for being ganked, you should ask people who actually run incursions. so far, they seem to be quite fine despite the permanent scanning (and so are my mission alts).


So why is it that you are in a fit about a ship with near three times the tank of your battleship? If you only have a single mach and you stick it in your bowhead with a basic t2 tank with t1 rigs it will cost the gankers a lot more to gank you than they could possibly earn. With a max tanked bowhead with logi support they would require more firepower than is needed to alpha a neuted chimera. That simply does not exist in high sec.
Anonymous Forumposter
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1117 - 2014-11-14 18:19:10 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
So why is it that you are in a fit about a ship with near three times the tank of your battleship? If you only have a single mach and you stick it in your bowhead with a basic t2 tank with t1 rigs it will cost the gankers a lot more to gank you than they could possibly earn. With a max tanked bowhead with logi support they would require more firepower than is needed to alpha a neuted chimera. That simply does not exist in high sec.


People seem to be continually neglecting to factor in that a ganked mach has 0% chance of dropping a mach hull in their comparisons thereby leaving only the modules as potential loot.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1118 - 2014-11-14 18:19:56 UTC
Valterra Craven wrote:
baltec1 wrote:


I am responding to YOUR argument that ganking hasn't gone down due to changes.


Ok, then lets go off that basis. Relative to amount of players that existed back then compared to now, what data do you have that shows that ganking has gone down? I basically asked him the same question I'm now asking you. Again, I'm not saying you are wrong, just that I haven't seen anything to suggest that this is the case.


M0o killed thousands of ships in choke systems over the span of a few days in high sec to the point where CCP had to step in and teleported their fleet to the far corners of null sec.

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1119 - 2014-11-14 18:20:43 UTC
Anonymous Forumposter wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
So why is it that you are in a fit about a ship with near three times the tank of your battleship? If you only have a single mach and you stick it in your bowhead with a basic t2 tank with t1 rigs it will cost the gankers a lot more to gank you than they could possibly earn. With a max tanked bowhead with logi support they would require more firepower than is needed to alpha a neuted chimera. That simply does not exist in high sec.


People seem to be continually neglecting to factor in that a ganked mach has 0% chance of dropping a mach hull in their comparisons thereby leaving only the modules as potential loot.


When the mods are worth several times the value of the hull that point doesn't matter.
Valterra Craven
#1120 - 2014-11-14 18:20:53 UTC
baltec1 wrote:


M0o killed thousands of ships in choke systems over the span of a few days in high sec to the point where CCP had to step in and teleported their fleet to the far corners of null sec.



And how does that differ from events like hulkageddon?