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[Rhea] Introducing the Bowhead

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Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#1081 - 2014-11-14 17:30:33 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:
Querns wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:

2. ganking: given the above, there is a very good reason to make this hull virtually ungankable.

I disagree.

it's always cool to disagree without stating your reasons. it makes you seem edgy and cool.


No cargo ship should ever be virtually ungankable right out of the box. If you want that level of security then you must put in the effort to do it yourself.

if that is true, then this ship will not find any use to speak of, at least not in hisec.

I should buy an Ishtar.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1082 - 2014-11-14 17:31:53 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
Querns wrote:
The disconnect here is that the calls for seven digit EHP and other forms of invincibility assume a position where attempting to evade or out-think the gankers in question is never broached. In a pure PvP game such as Eve: Online, you must keep death in mind at all times. There is no safety. You are prey at all times until you choose to become a predator, and even then you're only not prey if you are at the top of your game.


I see. Funny how in nullsec they have these ships called "titans" that are unkillable by pretty much anything except other titans and dreads. And when they are part of a large fleet with triage carriers, run by lets just say, Goonswarm Federation, they are virtually unkillable at all.

So we already have virtually invincible ships in nullsec, and the game somehow seems to be surviving. If incursion runners get a very tough to gank ship in highsec (replicating the virtual impossibility of ganking cloak + mwd + travel fit incursion battletships currently), that seems unlikely to somehow break the game.


Solo titans are far from invincible. They are infact entirely helpless if caught by a small gang of subcaps armed with neuts and a hic/dic.
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#1083 - 2014-11-14 17:31:58 UTC
Querns wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
Querns wrote:
The disconnect here is that the calls for seven digit EHP and other forms of invincibility assume a position where attempting to evade or out-think the gankers in question is never broached. In a pure PvP game such as Eve: Online, you must keep death in mind at all times. There is no safety. You are prey at all times until you choose to become a predator, and even then you're only not prey if you are at the top of your game.


I see. Funny how in nullsec they have these ships called "titans" that are unkillable by pretty much anything except other titans and dreads. And when they are part of a large fleet with triage carriers, run by lets just say, Goonswarm Federation, they are virtually unkillable at all.

So we already have virtually invincible ships in nullsec, and the game somehow seems to be surviving. If incursion runners get a very tough to gank ship in highsec (replicating the virtual impossibility of ganking cloak + mwd + travel fit incursion battletships currently), that seems unlikely to somehow break the game.

See, now you're just making things up. Titans die all the time.

Case in point: A small corporation, LowSechnaya Sholupen, killed a Northern Coalitiondot titan very recently. There are 11 people on the mail, and the bulk of the DPS was applied via simple dreadnought. Northern Coalitiondot currently controls more space than we do.

Your views on eve are, frankly, extremely myopic, and your failure to actually understand the reality of the situation casts quite a bit of doubt over your ability to think objectively outside of your own vignette.



Incursion ships die too. Freighters die. Sure titans die - but extremely rarely, and almost always due to gross stupidity. With triage carrier support, they virtually NEVER die. And that's fine. The game doesn't require every ship to be at significant risk of dying whenever it flies. So if Goonswarm titans can mosey around Deklein and NEVER die...that's fine for the game. Same thing if Bowheads would be able to mosey around highsec and NEVER die, the game would be perfectly fine. In no way does Eve require ships to constantly be at risk.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1084 - 2014-11-14 17:32:44 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:
Querns wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:

2. ganking: given the above, there is a very good reason to make this hull virtually ungankable.

I disagree.

it's always cool to disagree without stating your reasons. it makes you seem edgy and cool.


No cargo ship should ever be virtually ungankable right out of the box. If you want that level of security then you must put in the effort to do it yourself.

if that is true, then this ship will not find any use to speak of, at least not in hisec.

There are plenty of uses for the ship outside of the "I need to be able to haul extremely expensive battleships" niche in highsec. The ability to haul fitted ships is just more versatile than this. Trying to pretend that the extreme edge case being less viable when a perfect storm of circumstance arises somehow makes the ship worthless is a pretty terrible position from which to argue.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#1085 - 2014-11-14 17:33:29 UTC
its not just incursion runners that are going to be using these.

this makes moving assembled ships easier for everyone. but it should not make it free and easy. if you want to load it up with everything at once, then accept some risk or get some help FFS. If you dislike risk and friends as much as veers, then sure, keep putting in the work cloaky-mwd-ing about.

Ppl will use these, even if not every incursion runner will.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1086 - 2014-11-14 17:33:38 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:
Querns wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:

2. ganking: given the above, there is a very good reason to make this hull virtually ungankable.

I disagree.

it's always cool to disagree without stating your reasons. it makes you seem edgy and cool.


No cargo ship should ever be virtually ungankable right out of the box. If you want that level of security then you must put in the effort to do it yourself.

if that is true, then this ship will not find any use to speak of, at least not in hisec.


It can sport a 700k ehp tank and when escorted by several logis is virtually ungankable. The very fact that people fly freighters with cargo expanders shows that they will fly this ship.
Valterra Craven
#1087 - 2014-11-14 17:34:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Valterra Craven
War Kitten wrote:


I did *say* that the modification to crimewatch was a nerf to hisec criminality, but that was not my point. It was just to establish the fact that CCP visited hisec crime mechanics recently. You can argue that all you like about whether it is a nerf or not until you're blue in the face - it is not my point, as I've stated a few times now.



Ok, so if the main point of your post was just to establish that CCP made changes to a system and didn't make everyone completely safe in the process, then why not just say that changes were made? What purpose does it serve to make statements that you can't back up with actual data to support your main point? I understand why you think this is just me arguing, but I'm honestly trying to show you that as it relates to ganking and the bowhead that there is still a problem even after those changes were made.

Put another way, had those changes had any real affect then the amount of people in here asking for more HP on the bowhead would be drastically reduced. It would make no sense for someone to ask for a ship to be made safer to fly if the environment was already safe enough. The problem is that code/goons/etc have basically industrialized ganking.

Think about from this perspective, the goons have a habit about discovering things that aren't balanced and abusing those mechanics in order to get CCP to change them. I'm not saying this is a bad thing, but I see the ganking mechanics as no different. People are abusing game mechanics and its created a lot of frustration from enough people that its going to keep coming up until real changes happen. I don't agree with the mentality that hi sec should be %100 safe, but on the other hand I don't think people should be allowed to gank others to the degree in which they are currently. Very specific targeted attacks for hampering logistics is one thing, but to the degree that ganks occur now and the seemingly indiscriminate nature of the attacks suggest that this is not what is actually happening in practice.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1088 - 2014-11-14 17:34:27 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:

In no way does Eve require ships to constantly be at risk.

This is a fundamental misunderstanding of the very foundations of the entire game. This is, quite literally, anathema to the very underpinnings of the game's existence.

There's no better way to express this. It's objective truth; no amount of wordsmithery will change this indisputable fact.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1089 - 2014-11-14 17:35:50 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:


Incursion ships die too. Freighters die. Sure titans die - but extremely rarely, and almost always due to gross stupidity. With triage carrier support, they virtually NEVER die. And that's fine. The game doesn't require every ship to be at significant risk of dying whenever it flies. So if Goonswarm titans can mosey around Deklein and NEVER die...that's fine for the game. Same thing if Bowheads would be able to mosey around highsec and NEVER die, the game would be perfectly fine. In no way does Eve require ships to constantly be at risk.


We lost one in Dek the other week.
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#1090 - 2014-11-14 17:35:52 UTC
Querns wrote:
There are plenty of uses for the ship outside of the "I need to be able to haul extremely expensive battleships" niche in highsec. The ability to haul fitted ships is just more versatile than this. Trying to pretend that the extreme edge case being less viable when a perfect storm of circumstance arises somehow makes the ship worthless is a pretty terrible position from which to argue.

i am eager to hear of use cases where you would need to haul rigged hulls in hisec so badly that you invest ten digits and a month of training time into it.

I should buy an Ishtar.
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#1091 - 2014-11-14 17:37:25 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
It can sport a 700k ehp tank and when escorted by several logis is virtually ungankable. The very fact that people fly freighters with cargo expanders shows that they will fly this ship.

it is also completely useless to disprove my point because it assumes access to several chars (who may as well fly the ships you are hauling).

I should buy an Ishtar.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1092 - 2014-11-14 17:38:03 UTC
Valterra Craven wrote:

Put another way, had those changes had any real affect then the amount of people in here asking for more HP on the bowhead would be drastically reduced


Go and look at what M0o got up to a decade ago.

Then go look up what gankers were using as gank ships 5 years ago.

You will find there has been a huge change over time.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1093 - 2014-11-14 17:39:26 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
It can sport a 700k ehp tank and when escorted by several logis is virtually ungankable. The very fact that people fly freighters with cargo expanders shows that they will fly this ship.

it is also completely useless to disprove my point because it assumes access to several chars (who may as well fly the ships you are hauling).


Welcome to EVE.

In order to gank these things at all we need entire fleets of people working together. Why is it so bad for the industrial pilots to work together for the best results too?
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#1094 - 2014-11-14 17:41:13 UTC
Querns wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:

In no way does Eve require ships to constantly be at risk.

This is a fundamental misunderstanding of the very foundations of the entire game. This is, quite literally, anathema to the very underpinnings of the game's existence.

There's no better way to express this. It's objective truth; no amount of wordsmithery will change this indisputable fact.


Wrong. As has been pointed out repeatedly properly set up fleets with capital triage logi are essentially unkillable by weaker fleets. The fights are little more than one sided massacres. The titans of the stronger side have absolutely no risk of blowing up. And the yet the game survives - because there is no requirement that every time a ship undocks it faces material chance of destruction. Example - thousands of hours of flying and I have never lost an incursion battleship. Why? Because even a minimal level of precaution makes them virtually unkillable. Same for Goon titans in Deklein - even a minimal level of precaution and they are close to unkillable.

This bowhead was created in response to repeated and frequent requests from incursion runners to be able to move multiple ships around highsec....they currently can be moved individually with essentially complete safety. This ship was created to meet that need - not to now create a new risk of freighter ganking similar to that faced in Uedama and Niarja.
Yume Ookami
Cognitive Disonance
#1095 - 2014-11-14 17:41:28 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:
Querns wrote:
There are plenty of uses for the ship outside of the "I need to be able to haul extremely expensive battleships" niche in highsec. The ability to haul fitted ships is just more versatile than this. Trying to pretend that the extreme edge case being less viable when a perfect storm of circumstance arises somehow makes the ship worthless is a pretty terrible position from which to argue.

i am eager to hear of use cases where you would need to haul rigged hulls in hisec so badly that you invest ten digits and a month of training time into it.


again a starting character should be able to train for the bowhead in maybe a day if you have to train 2 skills to level 3.
now i never claimed that the support skills would be there, but a day of training max is hardly a month.
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#1096 - 2014-11-14 17:42:29 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
It can sport a 700k ehp tank and when escorted by several logis is virtually ungankable. The very fact that people fly freighters with cargo expanders shows that they will fly this ship.

it is also completely useless to disprove my point because it assumes access to several chars (who may as well fly the ships you are hauling).


Welcome to EVE.

In order to gank these things at all we need entire fleets of people working together. Why is it so bad for the industrial pilots to work together for the best results too?

please stop strawmanning me. if the proposed ship will be as gankable as it is outlined in the op, the ~best results~ will be achieved by not using it.

I should buy an Ishtar.
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#1097 - 2014-11-14 17:43:25 UTC
Yume Ookami wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:
Querns wrote:
There are plenty of uses for the ship outside of the "I need to be able to haul extremely expensive battleships" niche in highsec. The ability to haul fitted ships is just more versatile than this. Trying to pretend that the extreme edge case being less viable when a perfect storm of circumstance arises somehow makes the ship worthless is a pretty terrible position from which to argue.

i am eager to hear of use cases where you would need to haul rigged hulls in hisec so badly that you invest ten digits and a month of training time into it.


again a starting character should be able to train for the bowhead in maybe a day if you have to train 2 skills to level 3.
now i never claimed that the support skills would be there, but a day of training max is hardly a month.

advanced spaceship command V.

I should buy an Ishtar.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1098 - 2014-11-14 17:44:07 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:
Querns wrote:
There are plenty of uses for the ship outside of the "I need to be able to haul extremely expensive battleships" niche in highsec. The ability to haul fitted ships is just more versatile than this. Trying to pretend that the extreme edge case being less viable when a perfect storm of circumstance arises somehow makes the ship worthless is a pretty terrible position from which to argue.

i am eager to hear of use cases where you would need to haul rigged hulls in hisec so badly that you invest ten digits and a month of training time into it.


Transporting three battleships, two logi boats, a command ship, a hauler with ammo and a scout frigate for incursion running is a little over twice as fast using a bowhead than manually transporting them. (ship list taken from a poster earlier in the thread that stated that incursion runners own these ships. Time was calculated over having to move 30 jumps of an average of 50au)
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1099 - 2014-11-14 17:44:56 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:
Querns wrote:
There are plenty of uses for the ship outside of the "I need to be able to haul extremely expensive battleships" niche in highsec. The ability to haul fitted ships is just more versatile than this. Trying to pretend that the extreme edge case being less viable when a perfect storm of circumstance arises somehow makes the ship worthless is a pretty terrible position from which to argue.

i am eager to hear of use cases where you would need to haul rigged hulls in hisec so badly that you invest ten digits and a month of training time into it.

Investing a month of training time? The bulk of the training time for the Bowhead is Advanced Spaceship Command 5, a skill which has significant overlap with Freighters, Jump Freighters, and is a gateway to all capital ships. Pretending that it's some sort of burden shouldered only by the Bowhead aspirant is disingenuous.

Also, 1b is hardly a large amount of money. PLEX are a doghair from this value right now. And if you use a little bit of brainpower to limit your exposure, you can safely move around the universe while fearing no gank bogey man.

As for use cases, here's some:

  • Mercenaries transporting large numbers of ships-of-the-line to stage towards a new target.
  • A common way for corporations and alliances to provide ships for their members is to pre-fit them and put them up on contracts. The Bowhead allows them to move the ships easily should the staging point for the corporation/alliance change.
  • Consolidation of personal assets.


With a little creativity, a lot of things come out of the woodwork.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Yume Ookami
Cognitive Disonance
#1100 - 2014-11-14 17:46:32 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:
Yume Ookami wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:
Querns wrote:
There are plenty of uses for the ship outside of the "I need to be able to haul extremely expensive battleships" niche in highsec. The ability to haul fitted ships is just more versatile than this. Trying to pretend that the extreme edge case being less viable when a perfect storm of circumstance arises somehow makes the ship worthless is a pretty terrible position from which to argue.

i am eager to hear of use cases where you would need to haul rigged hulls in hisec so badly that you invest ten digits and a month of training time into it.


again a starting character should be able to train for the bowhead in maybe a day if you have to train 2 skills to level 3.
now i never claimed that the support skills would be there, but a day of training max is hardly a month.

advanced spaceship command V.


ok i forgot about ASC V but if you have a freighter pilot already or a BS pilot then it is not a long train.