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[Rhea] Introducing the Bowhead

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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#1041 - 2014-11-14 04:37:10 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
The reality is that the only group in highsec that actually needs to move 3 battleships around at once is incursion runners, and most of them with either have vindi+mach+nm or vindi+nm+scimi+basi,

Either way the hull value alone is getting close to 2 bil....and lots of highsec players will be sticking their expensive mods in as well, so we could easily be looking at 10 bil+ inside. I'm just hoping we don't start seeing these blowing up the same way we see jump freighters blowing up.

Personally I'm gonna wait a couple of months to see the ganking level before I even consider flying this.

As I said a number of pages back, if players stick 10 bil of Modules in this also expect to get Ganked. Based on current EHP numbers the bare hulls 'shouldn't' be worth ganking by a standard ABC gank, and are close in break even for a Catalyst gank which at about 50-60 needed is starting to get to the point they will be bumping each other out of effective range for small blasters possibly.
It certainly shouldn't have it's EHP nerfed though or it becomes an auto profit for any real use that it would actually see in highsec, rather than this mythical pilot needing to move multiple T1 hulls who can't simply package them. And more fitting options would be nice. It would be interesting to see indy ships actually given plenty of fitting & slots to use. After all if someone wants to use it as bait with smart bombs, it should be allowed. The artificial restriction on all Indy ships on fitting is a large part of what hurts them and forces the base EHP numbers to be so high.
Burl en Daire
M.O.M.S. Corp
#1042 - 2014-11-14 04:48:16 UTC
Sorry for the noob question, can a fitted ship in the ship maintenance array be used? If I am in a pod can I fly up to the Bowhead and enter the ship or can it be jettisoned for me to get into?

Yesterday's weirdness is tomorrow's reason why. Hunter S. Thompson
Ix Method
Doomheim
#1043 - 2014-11-14 07:35:33 UTC
Any news on courier contracting goodness?

Travelling at the speed of love.
Anonymous Forumposter
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1044 - 2014-11-14 07:44:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Anonymous Forumposter
Ix Method wrote:
Any news on courier contracting goodness?

Not yet.

Things people are waiting for answers to:

1) Will this ship cause modifications to plastic wrapping ships in courier contracts?
- a) Will we be able to haul plastic wrapped ships in the Bowhead?
- b) Will plastic wrapped ships still be courier-able via freighters and other ships

2) SMA or SMB?
- a) Will this ship have a Ship Maintenance Array (P.O.S. Module that holds both packaged and unpackaged ships and also allows you to assemble ships inside it.)?
- b) or a Ship Maintenance Bay (Like every other ship that holds ships)

3) Will we be able to board and load ships to/from this vessel in space?

4) Will we be able to refit ships in space using this ship?



If you're also interested in the answers to these questions, please like this post!
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1045 - 2014-11-14 08:41:56 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
The reality is that the only group in highsec that actually needs to move 3 battleships around at once is incursion runners, and most of them with either have vindi+mach+nm or vindi+nm+scimi+basi,

Either way the hull value alone is getting close to 2 bil....and lots of highsec players will be sticking their expensive mods in as well, so we could easily be looking at 10 bil+ inside. I'm just hoping we don't start seeing these blowing up the same way we see jump freighters blowing up.

Personally I'm gonna wait a couple of months to see the ganking level before I even consider flying this.



Nope. We do need to move our high end combat ships from one contract zone to the other. And out Ships are as expensive as incursion shiny fleets (usually ranging form 3 bil to 7 bil).

But we do not whine as much... and in fact I think we were never ever ganked because we use brains. (Move modules in a blockade runner )

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Nya Kittenheart
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1046 - 2014-11-14 09:36:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Nya Kittenheart
Quote:
-The ship should be in the Interbus line


-Which line is not the concern it's just that the skill progression doesn't feel natural for a hauler alt compared to the Rorqual and the Orca .It would make much sense to use Capital industrial ship for the first bonus and Capital ship for the other .

Quote:
-Not the role of the ship

-You can deny that this ship is some sort of Orca's big brother, and will be used in the same way.Some incursion community make great use of this bay to haul the necessary ore to complete some of their sites.It would be nice to add one.

Quote:
-Warp speed for a tugboat? Doesn't seem realistic and comparable to other T1 freighters or Orca.

-Why not a 10 % bonus would give a max warspeed of 2.2 tie this to capital ship skill and you have a nice trade off skill vs warspeed. it would remove the need of an High grade Ascendancy set to get decent use of the ship and reduce the bill if u get ganked + podded.

Quote:
-That will sure limit availability and won't add much to regular Industrialist players in Eve. So no.

Underestimating the amount of LP stored by incursionners:) + as they will be the main users once again it would make sense , worst case you have to farm incursion to farm the LP ,we have seen less profitable way to farm ...

Quote:
-Why more CPU? Since suicide ganking we shouldn't discuss and now is not even an issue.

As specified a bit more CPU to fit 2 x t2 Hardener or to 2 x t2 invul because they aren't only Catalyst and Talos roaming in space ^^


To Kagura Nikon :

I'd be please that you do not tie whining to "incursionners" as we are mostly complete strangers to ganking problems mostly because we don't move our BS faction fitted ...
This whole thread as been derailed on the freighter subject + i doubt any sane incursionners would fit BS faction fitted in that hull.
But you can deny the entry Bill for doing a proper use of this ship is quite hight !
-HULL (2b)+3 rigs (700M)+3 BS (2.2 B)+warpspeed implants because freaking slow (2B) +2 other + 6 % implants (hull+ agi) = 7.4 B to do max use of the hull is not pocket money even for an incursionnerOops
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#1047 - 2014-11-14 10:07:57 UTC
The bowhead as a tool to do indirect mass projection in null seems fine to me. Given that i can only mass-transport frigates, I don't see the problem... Its a nice way of mitigating the jump fatigue changes for those willing to fight in small ships instead of supercaps.

I always thought that fatigue should scale depending of the mass of the ship you bridge. Well, this is a nice indirect realization of that thought.

Signature Tanking Best Tanking

[Ex-F] CEO - Eve-guides.fr

Ultimate Citadel Guide - 2016 EVE Career Chart
Bagrat Skalski
Koinuun Kotei
#1048 - 2014-11-14 10:44:12 UTC
In a ship so huge, why there would be no drone bay? Shocked

Small drone bay would even make this ship capable of repairing other ships outside the maintenance bay. Or even limited self defence.

Why only hauling other ships?? In a hull like that, there should be secondary and tertiary activity build in for a limited small scale support.

Custom ship skins, character creator style "repaint". Bring it!
Anonymous Forumposter
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1049 - 2014-11-14 10:51:31 UTC
Bagrat Skalski wrote:
In a ship so huge, why there would be no drone bay? Shocked

Small drone bay would even make this ship capable of repairing other ships outside the maintenance bay. Or even limited self defence.

Why only hauling other ships?? In a hull like that, there should be secondary and tertiary activity build in for a limited small scale support.


I suspect the reasons they aren't adding a drone bay is "Because none of the other freighters have them."

The role as an in space depot is already the secondary/tertiary activity built into this ship designed to move ships from one station to another.
Dwissi
Miners Delight Reborn
#1050 - 2014-11-14 11:47:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Dwissi
So far the usage of the bowhead has only been stated as incursion usage - which is far too limited. Any ship in Eve can and is used for many different purposes . So specializing this just for incursion runners is plain out wrong. The industry changes in Crius forced industrialist to rethink how they establish themselves - it has become much more dynamic due to system cost index. The bowhead fills this role as well. Entire mining fleets being moved by a indy corporation into a new area of operations is another use case for the new ship - any kind of moving a fleet to a new ops area basically qualifies for this.

As with any freighter related business this ship doesn't really introduce any new challenges. Serious players will not move solo around with a freighter right now and they will not with this new ship either - unless they are too homophobic to play along with other players or are plain out 'advice resistant'.

CCP -please do not continue to make the game more and more a solo game - we have enough offline games for that. Not each and every ship type has to be defined in a way that it only requires a single person to 'get the job done'. Moving large amounts of valuable assets has to be risky when done solo.

Proud designer of glasses for geeky dovakins

Before someone complains again: grr everyone

Greed is the death of loyalty
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
#1051 - 2014-11-14 12:09:31 UTC
Valterra Craven wrote:
War Kitten wrote:


You're making my point for me and don't even realize it in your rush to argue - follow along closely this time....

CCP did not try to remove hisec criminality, they only nerfed/tweaked/adjusted/whatever'd** it. Had they wanted to remove criminal behavior in hisec, the crimewatch revamp would've been a really opportune time to do it.


** - feel free to insert whatever term you feel is most genuine here - again, it is not relevant to the point unless you use "removed", and then you'd be being disingenuous again.



*Sigh* Why is it so hard to be civil to others when trying to make a point?

As to your point, I've already stated numerous times that I don't believe high sec should be completely safe and I don't think criminality should be completely removed from the game. What I have said is that the balance for this activity is STILL not there and in my opinion needs work. So considering that I already agreed with the point you're trying to make and that I made it long before you even posted this response, it appears that you are the one that is arguing for the sake of it.


You're the one that took issue with my point when you misunderstood it. If you agree, then why are *you* arguing with *me*? My post wasn't even addressing you, it was addressing others that feel hisec should be safe, and I didn't quote anyone.

If you want to be civil, perhaps you could back down occasionally and take ownership when you're in the wrong instead of bull-headedly arguing just for the sake of arguing.

You picked this argument, you misunderstood and now you try and put it on me? Yeah, that's civil.



I don't judge people by their race, religion, color, size, age, gender, or ethnicity. I judge them by their grammar, spelling, syntax, punctuation, clarity of expression, and logical consistency.
Marcus Tedric
Zebra Corp
Goonswarm Federation
#1052 - 2014-11-14 12:17:03 UTC
Does there remain the possibility that CCP will clarify the SMA vs SMB query? The OP still says 'Array' - and they are different.

Don't soil your panties, you guys made a good point, we'll look at the numbers again. - CCP Ytterbium
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
#1053 - 2014-11-14 12:25:50 UTC
I like the solo pilot argument for balance versus a gang. It makes so much sense!

I like soloing too - we need a ship that is capable of ganking freighters solo in hisec. I will gladly pay the hull price equivalent of the ship I intend to gank so it will also be isk balanced.

Now how many solo freighter pilots think this is a good idea? It fits your need for isk equality and solo capability. Come on, step right up and either support the idea or admit you're being selfish in that you really only want *your* solo capability enhanced, not everyone's.

I don't judge people by their race, religion, color, size, age, gender, or ethnicity. I judge them by their grammar, spelling, syntax, punctuation, clarity of expression, and logical consistency.
Ix Method
Doomheim
#1054 - 2014-11-14 12:29:29 UTC
Bagrat Skalski wrote:
In a ship so huge, why there would be no drone bay? Shocked

Small drone bay would even make this ship capable of repairing other ships outside the maintenance bay. Or even limited self defence.

Why only hauling other ships?? In a hull like that, there should be secondary and tertiary activity build in for a limited small scale support.

Another way to 'break free of the empires', etc, etc.

A 25/75 bay for Logi Drones might be a nice touch without meaningfully improving its defence. But then I guess you could say the same for a high for an Improved Cloak, in the end you could lump all sorts of **** onto this for all kinds of reasons.

Travelling at the speed of love.
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
#1055 - 2014-11-14 12:36:29 UTC
Ix Method wrote:
Bagrat Skalski wrote:
In a ship so huge, why there would be no drone bay? Shocked

Small drone bay would even make this ship capable of repairing other ships outside the maintenance bay. Or even limited self defence.

Why only hauling other ships?? In a hull like that, there should be secondary and tertiary activity build in for a limited small scale support.

Another way to 'break free of the empires', etc, etc.

A 25/75 bay for Logi Drones might be a nice touch without meaningfully improving its defence. But then I guess you could say the same for a high for an Improved Cloak, in the end you could lump all sorts of **** onto this for all kinds of reasons.


Oooh, that gave me an idea (not a sarcastic one either)...

The Bowhead could be allowed to repair other ships and make it a floating garage. Ships in the SMB could be right-click repaired by the pilot - including module overheat damage.

I don't judge people by their race, religion, color, size, age, gender, or ethnicity. I judge them by their grammar, spelling, syntax, punctuation, clarity of expression, and logical consistency.
S'No Flake
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1056 - 2014-11-14 13:43:17 UTC
Masao Kurata wrote:
Bertucio wrote:
This does make me wonder if the real design goal of the Bowhead is just to provide more cannon fodder for gankers? Since as it stands now - unless you fly with it in a fleet or dual account play and have some kind of logistics, you're going to have to say bye bye to your Bowhead everytime a group of 20 cheap dessies and their CODE? leader want to gank it in hi-sec.


35 destroyers if you tank it properly. And if you're flying solo. If you're caught at all with your 10 second warps. If the fc can even get 35 gankers. Who by the way have to all have perfect skills for this calculation.

And if nobody makes any mistakes. And if there is no interference reducing the effective firepower of the fleet. And if you ignore the huge red circle of death on your star map from the activity of such a large, well trained gank fleet.


It's called isboxer :)
There are entire fleets of them.
Some ganking in HS. Some flying SBs in 0.0, some doing incursions with 30 something pirate battleships.
Valterra Craven
#1057 - 2014-11-14 14:51:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Valterra Craven
War Kitten wrote:

My post wasn't even addressing you, it was addressing others that feel hisec should be safe, and I didn't quote anyone.



No, your original post did not quote me. But when I asked you to back up your claims, every other post you made after did:

War Kitten wrote:
Valterra Craven wrote:
War Kitten wrote:
For those of you that think hisec should be safe, ponder this...

CCP recently revamped how the crimewatch criminal flagging system works. Can flipping disappeared, and hisec combat in general took a pretty big nerf with the new suspect flag making criminals vulnerable to all. If you commit a crime in hisec, everyone can shoot at you now - not just the person you stole from.


Given the nature of the beast I'm not sure that you can factually make this claim. I'm not per se saying you are wrong, just that I don't believe their is enough evidence to make that claim. I see plenty of bait blinky yellows around minnie systems that have lots of traffic in it. All crimewatch has done is condition people not to be stupid enough to shoot those blinky players given the way the mechanics of assistance are so foolishly laid out.


The quirks of crimewatch's implementation are secondary to my point. Don't be obtuse.

If CCP intended hisec to be safe, they would have made it so by now.



Now, the original point you made was that due to all of the changes over the years that high sec ganking and and other activities have been drastically cut down. My point was that I could see no evidence of this, nor did you provide any data to back your assertion up. All of this other tangential business aside, are you going to try to provide the data or aren't you? Keep in mind that while CCP does have a history of making changes, those changes don't necessarily work out the way they intend them too. Given the amount of people in this thread saying that the bowhead should have more HP so that it is not easy to gank and given all of the anecdotal evidence to the contrary of your point, I don't believe you can back up you argument.
Jean Luc Lemmont
Carebears on Fire
#1058 - 2014-11-14 15:06:43 UTC
War Kitten wrote:
Ix Method wrote:
Bagrat Skalski wrote:
In a ship so huge, why there would be no drone bay? Shocked

Small drone bay would even make this ship capable of repairing other ships outside the maintenance bay. Or even limited self defence.

Why only hauling other ships?? In a hull like that, there should be secondary and tertiary activity build in for a limited small scale support.

Another way to 'break free of the empires', etc, etc.

A 25/75 bay for Logi Drones might be a nice touch without meaningfully improving its defence. But then I guess you could say the same for a high for an Improved Cloak, in the end you could lump all sorts of **** onto this for all kinds of reasons.


Oooh, that gave me an idea (not a sarcastic one either)...

The Bowhead could be allowed to repair other ships and make it a floating garage. Ships in the SMB could be right-click repaired by the pilot - including module overheat damage.


If this goes through I will do two things.

A) Immediately invest every scrap of liquid ISK I havbe in Nanite Paste.
B) Have your children.

Will I get banned for boxing!?!?!

This thread has degenerated to the point it's become like two bald men fighting over a comb. -- Doc Fury

It's bonuses, not boni, you cretins.
SFM Hobb3s
Perkone
Caldari State
#1059 - 2014-11-14 15:09:30 UTC
For a ship designed specifically for hisec use, I'm surprised it even has a jump drive. Considering that everyone has been arguing why the ship that absolutely needed it, the Nestor, doesn't have one.
Anonymous Forumposter
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1060 - 2014-11-14 15:10:24 UTC
SFM Hobb3s wrote:
For a ship designed specifically for hisec use, I'm surprised it even has a jump drive. Considering that everyone has been arguing why the ship that absolutely needed it, the Nestor, doesn't have one.


Because it DOESN'T have a jump drive. That's why.