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[Rhea] Introducing the Bowhead

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Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#621 - 2014-11-11 20:46:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Promiscuous Female
Suicide Smith wrote:
I've got it!

A Solution to make everyone unhappy.

Cut the EHP of the ship.. AND remove all 0.5 bottleneck systems in Highsec. Either by adding some additional gates to go around them, or changing them to say 0.7 systems..

There, now you get the easier kill, and we get to not be required to go through the most vulnerable systems in Highsec to move about. And now you actually have to hunt your prey, rather than just sit in a system where you know they have to go through just to move from A to B.

These routes already exist

http://evemaps.dotlan.net/route/2:Amarr:Jita:-Niarja
http://evemaps.dotlan.net/route/2:Dodixie:Jita:-Uedama

e: hahaha okay nevermind these go through each other as a result
Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
#622 - 2014-11-11 20:47:41 UTC
Can No you trolls stop polluting this thread no one cares who is right and you are just non needed noise thank you.

If i have to choose on tank or space i would say more tank.

You choke behind a smile a fake behind the fear

Because >>I is too hard
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#623 - 2014-11-11 20:47:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Il Feytid
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Valterra Craven wrote:
Querns wrote:

At $10, how could you not? Shoot, I spent $10 for lunch today. Them's some cheap-ass friends.


$10? I don't think even a year long sub is that cheap, nor is the plex value anywhere near that...? Please tell me how you play for 10 dollars a month....

he's talking about the cost of a forums dot somethingawful dot com, premiere internet posting station and friend vending machine, account

also ahahahahahaha look at you idiots trying to draw parallels between real life society and eve

Let me nail down my point:

A new player should have all the tools and requirements to play a game, within said game. Having to already have an established relationship from a completely separate entity, such as forum, in order to have a chance to not just survive but thrive is terrible. Just because someone entered the game with loads of friends already established who promptly escorted them away from a specific part of the game (high sec) does not mean high sec is fine.

People say high sec should be more dangerous, others say it is too dangerous with suicide ganking. See the fact most suicide tankers can not be stopped before the gank happens due to Concord protecting them or other mechanics are mitigated away such as insta outs and expired kill rights.

High sec can't become more dangerous if the tutorials and missions shove players to be unprepared for actual combat with other players. Sorry but forcing a new player to lose a ship in the tutorial hardly does anything to teach them PvP. People say concord is consequences, not protection. Fine, but what is being done to show new players how to get into PvP to actually do something against those would be bad guys? It sure as hell is not happening from being fought to do high sec missions with fits that don't stand a chance in PvP.

You can not expect new players to enter a game with a group already established in the game as the bar to not just survive but enjoy and grow.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#624 - 2014-11-11 20:48:26 UTC
Question for gankers. How much do your Gank Talos's cost? And how much damage do they do in 30 seconds.
Because if the Bowhead is carrying Pirate BS/Marauders like it will be if used for it's intended High sec purpose, thats 2-3 billion in pure hull value sitting in it. Plus possibly some more in some logi cruisers. Say if it's an Incursion runner moving their hulls from one focus to another, they will have a DPS, a Sniper, at least 2 logi, and possibly a second DPS or Sniper as well. All of which will be T2 rigged.

So 2 Bil+ is the minimum realistic value to expect the Bowhead to move. This T2 Fitted T1 BS stuff is absolute rubbish as far as it's use in highsec goes.

So I'm curious to see how you cost/loss maths actually work out against the Bowhead when you use a realistic hull value for it's contents, even if we assume they stripped the modules and moved those in a blockade runner.
Syss7
SniggWaffe
WAFFLES.
#625 - 2014-11-11 20:50:14 UTC
I'm really excited for this new ship!

Thank you CCP Rise.
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#626 - 2014-11-11 20:50:53 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Valterra Craven wrote:
Querns wrote:

At $10, how could you not? Shoot, I spent $10 for lunch today. Them's some cheap-ass friends.


$10? I don't think even a year long sub is that cheap, nor is the plex value anywhere near that...? Please tell me how you play for 10 dollars a month....

he's talking about the cost of a forums dot somethingawful dot com, premiere internet posting station and friend vending machine, account

also ahahahahahaha look at you idiots trying to draw parallels between real life society and eve

Let me nail down my point:

A new player should have all the tools and requirements to play a game, within said game. Having to already have an established relationship from a completely separate entity, such as forum, in order to have a chance to not just survive but thrive is terrible. Just because someone entered the game with loads of friends already established who promptly escorted them away from a specific part of the game (high sec) does not mean high sec is fine.

People say high sec should be more dangerous, others say it is too dangerous with suicide ganking. See the fact most suicide tankers can not be stopped before the gank happens due to Concord protecting them or other mechanics are mitigated away such as insta outs and expired kill rights.

High sec can't become more dangerous if the tutorials and missions shove players to be unprepared for actual combat with other players. Sorry but forcing a new player to lose a ship in the tutorial hardly does anything to teach them PvP. People say concord is consequences, not protection. Fine, but what is being done to show new players how to get into PvP to actually do something against those would be bad guys? It sure as hell is not happening from being fought to do high sec missions with fits that don't stand a chance in PvP.

[b]You can not expect new players to enter a game with a group already established in the game as the bar to not just survive but enjoy and grow.[b]

so how did you go from "highsec is not the end all and be all of the newbie experience, look at this anecdote to the contrary" to this wall of tism
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#627 - 2014-11-11 20:53:00 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Atomic Dove
Snip, Refrain from insults and personal attacks directed to other players and posting killl reports. - ISD Atomic Dove
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#628 - 2014-11-11 20:53:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Marlona Sky wrote:
High sec can't become more dangerous if the tutorials and missions shove players to be unprepared for actual combat with other players
Just one problem with this claim: highsec was far more dangerous, especially to newbies, when they had even less guidance and were tossed out into open space even less prepared. Saying that “it can't become” what it has already been is somewhat disingenuous.

Quote:
You can not expect new players to enter a game with a group already established in the game as the bar to not just survive but enjoy and grow.
This is fair enough, but at the same time, it shows that all that is required for new players to enjoy, grow, and thrive is that they are properly educated — not that they are coddled or protected. What's really needed is better ways for new players to make those crucial connections, rather than be the standard scapegoat for established players looking to make their own lives easier.

Valterra Craven wrote:
Nope. But I would be in favor of people that continually engage in high sec ganking receiving some form of permanent handicap while in high sec.
This already exists in numerous incarnations. You are in favour of the game as it already works.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#629 - 2014-11-11 20:56:12 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Question for gankers. How much do your Gank Talos's cost? And how much damage do they do in 30 seconds.
Because if the Bowhead is carrying Pirate BS/Marauders like it will be if used for it's intended High sec purpose, thats 2-3 billion in pure hull value sitting in it. Plus possibly some more in some logi cruisers. Say if it's an Incursion runner moving their hulls from one focus to another, they will have a DPS, a Sniper, at least 2 logi, and possibly a second DPS or Sniper as well. All of which will be T2 rigged.

So 2 Bil+ is the minimum realistic value to expect the Bowhead to move. This T2 Fitted T1 BS stuff is absolute rubbish as far as it's use in highsec goes.

So I'm curious to see how you cost/loss maths actually work out against the Bowhead when you use a realistic hull value for it's contents, even if we assume they stripped the modules and moved those in a blockade runner.


CCP dont tank these things according to the highest possible isk value junk you can stuff in it.

450k ehp is more than enough tank for this whale, you people already transport more expensive cargo in ships with much less tank.
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
#630 - 2014-11-11 20:59:21 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Question for gankers. How much do your Gank Talos's cost? And how much damage do they do in 30 seconds.
Because if the Bowhead is carrying Pirate BS/Marauders like it will be if used for it's intended High sec purpose, thats 2-3 billion in pure hull value sitting in it. Plus possibly some more in some logi cruisers. Say if it's an Incursion runner moving their hulls from one focus to another, they will have a DPS, a Sniper, at least 2 logi, and possibly a second DPS or Sniper as well. All of which will be T2 rigged.

So 2 Bil+ is the minimum realistic value to expect the Bowhead to move. This T2 Fitted T1 BS stuff is absolute rubbish as far as it's use in highsec goes.

So I'm curious to see how you cost/loss maths actually work out against the Bowhead when you use a realistic hull value for it's contents, even if we assume they stripped the modules and moved those in a blockade runner.


Go back and read / search for Warr Akini's posts. He's rather authoritative in Goonswarm's ganking for profit division.

I don't judge people by their race, religion, color, size, age, gender, or ethnicity. I judge them by their grammar, spelling, syntax, punctuation, clarity of expression, and logical consistency.
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#631 - 2014-11-11 21:07:18 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Atomic Dove
also laughin @ the assertion that three T2 fit battleships is over 2b isk

because i am lazy i can only really think of one guy who flies battleships basically all the time
so here is baltec1's most recent megathron loss


okay so it's a shield megathron but it's definitely T2 and what do we have here, a price tag of 263m

you'd need to be able to store 8 of those bad boys in a bowhead before they hit the 2b DANGER ZONE

Snip, Refrain from posting killl reports. - ISD Atomic Dove
Valterra Craven
#632 - 2014-11-11 21:09:10 UTC
Tippa wrote:
Valterra Craven wrote:
Nope. But I would be in favor of people that continually engage in high sec ganking receiving some form of permanent handicap while in high sec.
This already exists in numerous incarnations. You are in favour of the game as it already works.


Please elaborate.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#633 - 2014-11-11 21:09:16 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Atomic Dove
Promiscuous Female wrote:
also laughin @ the assertion that three T2 fit battleships is over 2b isk

because i am lazy i can only really think of one guy who flies battleships basically all the time
so here is baltec1's most recent megathron loss

2

okay so it's a shield megathron but it's definitely T2 and what do we have here, a price tag of 263m

you'd need to be able to store 8 of those bad boys in a bowhead before they hit the 2b DANGER ZONE


RIP Mengu
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#634 - 2014-11-11 21:09:51 UTC
baltec1 wrote:


CCP dont tank these things according to the highest possible isk value junk you can stuff in it.

450k ehp is more than enough tank for this whale, you people already transport more expensive cargo in ships with much less tank.

I'm not talking the highest possible Isk value however. I'm assuming they actually stripped the modules. If they fail to strip the modules or transport the modules in the Bowheads own hold then they would actually be hauling 10-20 Billion in Isk to haul all of their Incursion ships around in most cases. And sure, I don't expect CCP to tank it according to that.
I'm talking about the base hull value for the use that CCP is claiming they built the ship for, vs the cost of the gank required to reliably succeed at said gank.
Assuming that 20 Talos are actually needed which which I'm not convinced on off the numbers I know..... then it feels like it about balances out if that 115 Mil value the killboards give is actually correct in game. I don't assume kill boards are correct as a given, I much prefer actual figures from in game.
Since then it's about 2 billion to gank one of these in a 'standard' way, vs a 2-3 Billion in base hull value that is likely to drop.
So someone smart who tanks it out and strips modules isn't going to be at terrible risk, though you can't see if modules are stripped at present I know. And someone who organises enough people (or isboxes 55 accounts which sadly removes most of the effort involved but hey, different debate) to do it with cheaper Catalysts has in theory done a lot more. And Catalysts have much shorter range making it harder to get them all applying perfectly at the same time.

Also, like always, drop the 'you people'. It weakens your argument when you resort to such emotive tricks as making it 'us and them'. Stick with the logical arguments based on figures and what CCP have said was their intent. Works much better on actually reaching middle ground instead of alienating people.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#635 - 2014-11-11 21:18:57 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
baltec1 wrote:


CCP dont tank these things according to the highest possible isk value junk you can stuff in it.

450k ehp is more than enough tank for this whale, you people already transport more expensive cargo in ships with much less tank.

I'm not talking the highest possible Isk value however. I'm assuming they actually stripped the modules. If they fail to strip the modules or transport the modules in the Bowheads own hold then they would actually be hauling 10-20 Billion in Isk to haul all of their Incursion ships around in most cases. And sure, I don't expect CCP to tank it according to that.
I'm talking about the base hull value for the use that CCP is claiming they built the ship for, vs the cost of the gank required to reliably succeed at said gank.
Assuming that 20 Talos are actually needed which which I'm not convinced on off the numbers I know..... then it feels like it about balances out if that 115 Mil value the killboards give is actually correct in game. I don't assume kill boards are correct as a given, I much prefer actual figures from in game.
Since then it's about 2 billion to gank one of these in a 'standard' way, vs a 2-3 Billion in base hull value that is likely to drop.
So someone smart who tanks it out and strips modules isn't going to be at terrible risk, though you can't see if modules are stripped at present I know. And someone who organises enough people (or isboxes 55 accounts which sadly removes most of the effort involved but hey, different debate) to do it with cheaper Catalysts has in theory done a lot more. And Catalysts have much shorter range making it harder to get them all applying perfectly at the same time.

Also, like always, drop the 'you people'. It weakens your argument when you resort to such emotive tricks as making it 'us and them'. Stick with the logical arguments based on figures and what CCP have said was their intent. Works much better on actually reaching middle ground instead of alienating people.



Mods dont showup on scans so the ships can fit whatever they like. Even three rattlesnakes will fall well under the profit line to gank one of these things.
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#636 - 2014-11-11 21:26:14 UTC
it turns out that individuals preying on other individuals is core to eve gameplay
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#637 - 2014-11-11 21:35:50 UTC
baltec1 wrote:


Mods dont showup on scans so the ships can fit whatever they like. Even three rattlesnakes will fall well under the profit line to gank one of these things.

Unless they are bling fit in which case they won't fall under even a Talos gank margin.
Or unless you use Catalysts in which case even the base hulls are right on the edge (assuming normal drop rates) and any kind of fittings left on the ships are your profit.
And choosing the cheapest by a significant margin Pirate BS does not a point make, other than that you are trying to manipulate the argument by cherry picking your statistics.

Though sure, items inside a container don't show up on scan. Something I imagine is as much a UI limitation as it is a technical limitation on scans. But that doesn't make those items stop existing, just makes them a bit of a guess work as to if they will be there or not.
Same as blockade runners don't show their hold, but it doesn't make them valueless to gank.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#638 - 2014-11-11 21:45:31 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:

Unless they are bling fit in which case they won't fall under even a Talos gank margin.
Or unless you use Catalysts in which case even the base hulls are right on the edge (assuming normal drop rates) and any kind of fittings left on the ships are your profit.
And choosing the cheapest by a significant margin Pirate BS does not a point make, other than that you are trying to manipulate the argument by cherry picking your statistics.


A trio of nightmares is also below the profit margin.



Nevyn Auscent wrote:

Though sure, items inside a container don't show up on scan. Something I imagine is as much a UI limitation as it is a technical limitation on scans. But that doesn't make those items stop existing, just makes them a bit of a guess work as to if they will be there or not.
Same as blockade runners don't show their hold, but it doesn't make them valueless to gank.


Go ahead and try to make a profit ganking blockade runners. The only thing you will manage to do by ganking blind is run out of isk.
Dissention Prime
Planet Poundtown
#639 - 2014-11-11 21:45:40 UTC
This is spectacular. I don't know why it has taken so long to happen, but I am pretty damn happy about it.
Fruckton Haulalot
EREBOR Logistics
#640 - 2014-11-11 21:47:41 UTC
again you folks are way off topic.... this thread is not about your opinions on pvp... nor the validity of right or wrong pirate play... its about the bowhead....


while most of you are very good at typing very well thought out arguments and or logical arguments for both sides of the debate... lets talk more about Bowhead....


The Bowhead will bring some new aspect to the game that alot of folks will like... and some will hate... but lets realistically give reasonable thought to it instead of the worthless tangents yall are on now