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[Rhea] Introducing the Bowhead

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War Kitten
Panda McLegion
#521 - 2014-11-11 15:42:16 UTC
If your webbing alt is getting popped and/or missing the target on regional gates, perhaps you're using the wrong ship to web with.

A Hyena is just a low cost option with longer range... its not the only option, nor the best. If you realize that a webbing ship is critical to your success, wouldn't it also be wise to use a ship with some EHP for this task too?

I swear, some people have to have all their thinking done for them...



I don't judge people by their race, religion, color, size, age, gender, or ethnicity. I judge them by their grammar, spelling, syntax, punctuation, clarity of expression, and logical consistency.
Dave Stark
#522 - 2014-11-11 15:43:36 UTC
War Kitten wrote:
I swear, some people have to have all their thinking done for them...




not when rise gives in to their whining, they don't.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#523 - 2014-11-11 15:44:59 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Alright, added quite a bit of base hp (mostly in shield, some in structure) and changed the max velocity bonus to agility. OP is updated with new numbers.


Could you run the numbers on a bulkhead fit?, I dont have any fitting tools or paper with me.
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
#524 - 2014-11-11 15:52:57 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Alright, added quite a bit of base hp (mostly in shield, some in structure) and changed the max velocity bonus to agility. OP is updated with new numbers.


What? No drones? No increased capacity?

I am disappointed.

I still think you should've gone with a more even split of shield, armor and structure and made tanking it any of 3 ways viable. Doubling shield AND more structure is overkill I think.



I don't judge people by their race, religion, color, size, age, gender, or ethnicity. I judge them by their grammar, spelling, syntax, punctuation, clarity of expression, and logical consistency.
CCP Rise
C C P
C C P Alliance
#525 - 2014-11-11 15:53:59 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Alright, added quite a bit of base hp (mostly in shield, some in structure) and changed the max velocity bonus to agility. OP is updated with new numbers.


Could you run the numbers on a bulkhead fit?, I dont have any fitting tools or paper with me.


1 DCU, 2 t2 bulkhead, 3 t1 transverse, 3 t2 invuln is around 420k EHP, is that the numbers you were hoping for?

@ccp_rise
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#526 - 2014-11-11 15:55:25 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Alright, added quite a bit of base hp (mostly in shield, some in structure) and changed the max velocity bonus to agility. OP is updated with new numbers.


Could you run the numbers on a bulkhead fit?, I dont have any fitting tools or paper with me.


1 DCU, 2 t2 bulkhead, 3 t1 transverse, 3 t2 invuln is around 420k EHP, is that the numbers you were hoping for?


More than enough.
Dave Stark
#527 - 2014-11-11 15:56:42 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Alright, added quite a bit of base hp (mostly in shield, some in structure) and changed the max velocity bonus to agility. OP is updated with new numbers.


Could you run the numbers on a bulkhead fit?, I dont have any fitting tools or paper with me.


1 DCU, 2 t2 bulkhead, 3 t1 transverse, 3 t2 invuln is around 420k EHP, is that the numbers you were hoping for?


inb4 "still not enough ehp".
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#528 - 2014-11-11 15:57:29 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
It doesnt matter if CCP said its for high sec, fact is that it will see the bulk of its use in null by the organised powers. You dont see a use for it, fine, let the people who do have a use for it have this much wanted ship.

So what you're saying is... Extremely useful in null-sec - gank magnet in high-sec?

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Valterra Craven
#529 - 2014-11-11 16:00:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Valterra Craven
CCP Rise wrote:
Alright, added quite a bit of base hp (mostly in shield, some in structure) and changed the max velocity bonus to agility. OP is updated with new numbers.



The more I look at the skills outlay for how you guys set up Capital ships the more I think you guys haven't actually planned on these and just do them on a whim.

Take a look at the prereqs for the skill "Capital Ships" (hint: there are two!)
Now take a look at the prereqs for the skill Capital Industrial Ships (hint: there are over 10!)

Please for the love of all that is rational remove the skills reqs that don't make since from the Capital Industrial Ships skill and move them to the roq and then use the Capital Industrial Ship Skill as the skill going forward for ships like the bowhead and the roq!
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#530 - 2014-11-11 16:01:33 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
It doesnt matter if CCP said its for high sec, fact is that it will see the bulk of its use in null by the organised powers. You dont see a use for it, fine, let the people who do have a use for it have this much wanted ship.

So what you're saying is... Extremely useful in null-sec - gank magnet in high-sec?


I honestly dont see many of the usual gankbait players using this ship. Supplies of ships out of jita will still be more efficiently trasported in packaged form.
S'No Flake
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#531 - 2014-11-11 16:03:44 UTC
War Kitten wrote:
If your webbing alt is getting popped and/or missing the target on regional gates, perhaps you're using the wrong ship to web with.

A Hyena is just a low cost option with longer range... its not the only option, nor the best. If you realize that a webbing ship is critical to your success, wouldn't it also be wise to use a ship with some EHP for this task too?

I swear, some people have to have all their thinking done for them...





If you have to move 2 incursions ships, why using a web + bowhead instead of moving the ships by themselves with much more tank and cloak+mwd?

DPS ship + Orca with your choice of logi ships inside it's much much more safer :)
Arronicus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#532 - 2014-11-11 16:22:21 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Alright, added quite a bit of base hp (mostly in shield, some in structure) and changed the max velocity bonus to agility. OP is updated with new numbers.


Could you run the numbers on a bulkhead fit?, I dont have any fitting tools or paper with me.


1 DCU, 2 t2 bulkhead, 3 t1 transverse, 3 t2 invuln is around 420k EHP, is that the numbers you were hoping for?


Nice to see the chunk of shields added. Being as exclusive as it was before to hulltanks only excluded the possibility of using Logi to help keep the ship alive if running any sort of logi along with it. This opens up some better possibilities. I think it is funny how actively goons are pushing to NOT have the hp increased, specifically so that the ship will be only effective as gankbait. It's as if Baltec and Dave Stark don't even want these to be used.
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
#533 - 2014-11-11 16:24:10 UTC
S'No Flake wrote:
War Kitten wrote:
If your webbing alt is getting popped and/or missing the target on regional gates, perhaps you're using the wrong ship to web with.

A Hyena is just a low cost option with longer range... its not the only option, nor the best. If you realize that a webbing ship is critical to your success, wouldn't it also be wise to use a ship with some EHP for this task too?

I swear, some people have to have all their thinking done for them...





If you have to move 2 incursions ships, why using a web + bowhead instead of moving the ships by themselves with much more tank and cloak+mwd?

DPS ship + Orca with your choice of logi ships inside it's much much more safer :)


If you have to move 2 ships, you don't have a problem that this ship solves.

Move along.

I don't judge people by their race, religion, color, size, age, gender, or ethnicity. I judge them by their grammar, spelling, syntax, punctuation, clarity of expression, and logical consistency.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#534 - 2014-11-11 16:24:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
baltec1 wrote:
I honestly dont see many of the usual gankbait players using this ship. Supplies of ships out of jita will still be more efficiently trasported in packaged form.

From everything I've read in this thread (and in particular, your perspective), it certainly sounds like this ship was designed first and foremost with null-sec players in-mind as opposed to say transport for high-sec incursion runners. Which is fine - I just wish the intended use didn't come with misleading statements.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Dave Stark
#535 - 2014-11-11 16:26:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
Arronicus wrote:
It's as if Baltec and Dave Stark don't even want these to be used.

i feel i must first point out that i'm really not a goon.

also, i'd rather people used their brain rather than ccp just giving it a high number of ehp because apparently thinking is hard?

besides, i had no issue with swapping ehp from hull to shields and/or armour. i had the issue with just arbitrarily giving it more ehp.
King Fu Hostile
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#536 - 2014-11-11 16:31:21 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Alright, added quite a bit of base hp (mostly in shield, some in structure) and changed the max velocity bonus to agility. OP is updated with new numbers.


Nice, now add 1 highslot and reduce mass to 300mil kg, and you have a ship that's useful for other things than Incursions.

Paynus Maiassus
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#537 - 2014-11-11 16:32:48 UTC
420K EHP is an outstanding number. The things will be effectively ungankable. Very nice. I much approve. These numbers also make a lot of the recent posts on this thread inapplicable.
Zafrena Tyrleon
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#538 - 2014-11-11 16:37:35 UTC
The ship itself sounds nice enough. It doesn't need to be an ideal solution, it's already in a fairly nice place.

Just a couple of thoughts though:

Since you already acknowledged that agility is a more appropriate bonus than max velocity, how about changing existing racial freighters to match?

Also, is there really a need for a new skill just for this? The ORE line-up is pretty thin in terms of skills to ships. Is there a good reason this can't just go under ORE Industrial? Or possibly redo the Industrial Command Ship skill a bit - move the Mining Director around to be a primary req for the Orca, rename the skill, and put this ship under it as well. Industrial Command Ship as a skill is so clearly meant for the Orca, when a more elegant solution would just be to move skill reqs around slightly and keep the tree sane.

It's just a bad trend to have 4 skills for 4 ships. Another T1 ORE Industrial would certainly be appreciated as well.
S'No Flake
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#539 - 2014-11-11 16:39:16 UTC
War Kitten wrote:
S'No Flake wrote:
War Kitten wrote:
If your webbing alt is getting popped and/or missing the target on regional gates, perhaps you're using the wrong ship to web with.

A Hyena is just a low cost option with longer range... its not the only option, nor the best. If you realize that a webbing ship is critical to your success, wouldn't it also be wise to use a ship with some EHP for this task too?

I swear, some people have to have all their thinking done for them...





If you have to move 2 incursions ships, why using a web + bowhead instead of moving the ships by themselves with much more tank and cloak+mwd?

DPS ship + Orca with your choice of logi ships inside it's much much more safer :)


If you have to move 2 ships, you don't have a problem that this ship solves.

Move along.


Well, you usually have more than 2: DPS, basi, scimi + ammo/drones bu you can fit all but the DPS in an orca.
I see the bowhead as a replacement of Orca in case you want to bring a 2nd DPS ship. Which is not going to work even with 2 chars so we are back to the square one as no improvement was made Roll
S'No Flake
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#540 - 2014-11-11 16:46:33 UTC
Paynus Maiassus wrote:
420K EHP is an outstanding number. The things will be effectively ungankable. Very nice. I much approve. These numbers also make a lot of the recent posts on this thread inapplicable.


Seriously? effectively ungankable?
You can bump this ship out of alignment until downtime and bringing a few waves of cheap fit destroyers to kill it.
It's pretty damn easy to draw concord away between waves.

I like it more with the shield increase because now you can bring your 2nd char in a loki with links and maybe surprise the gankers :)