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[Rhea] Introducing the Bowhead

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S'No Flake
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#481 - 2014-11-11 13:43:52 UTC
Masao Kurata wrote:
TerminalSamurai Sunji wrote:
Your asking for people to pay for more than an orca and get less tank ...


If by "less" you mean "more". The extra low lets you fit an extra bulkhead, giving you almost the same amount of hull while having more shield and armor HP.


Yes, he means less.
In terms of bare numbers yes, it's more but in terms of EHP/cargo (value of items) it's way worst because it can move more stuff around.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#482 - 2014-11-11 13:49:49 UTC
S'No Flake wrote:
Masao Kurata wrote:
TerminalSamurai Sunji wrote:
Your asking for people to pay for more than an orca and get less tank ...


If by "less" you mean "more". The extra low lets you fit an extra bulkhead, giving you almost the same amount of hull while having more shield and armor HP.


Yes, he means less.
In terms of bare numbers yes, it's more but in terms of EHP/cargo (value of items) it's way worst because it can move more stuff around.


3 t2 fitted battleships cost around a billion. A tank of 350k ehp is more than enoughto cover this cargo.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#483 - 2014-11-11 13:51:14 UTC
Malou Hashur wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
I have in-game fitting window showing around 350k EHP with a DCU II, 2x reinforced bulkheads II, 3x Transverse bulkhead I

This is in the same range as tank-oriented freighters - I'm sure people using the hauler would want as much as possible but this range should be reasonable, yes?


You've heard of Polarized weapons, yes ?



You have seen their cost yes?
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#484 - 2014-11-11 13:51:25 UTC
Odithia wrote:
Be realistic, considering how paper thin it is, nobody in their right mind will ever use this ship to transport 3 faction BS.
Ok, let's be realistic.

It is only paper thin if you in every way, utterly and completely **** up the fit by being a ******. If you avoid that, it is among the sturdiest ships you will ever come across in highsec. It will trivially keep 3 faction BS safe from any kind of profitable ganking, especially if you have the wherewithal to carry the actually valuable parts separately. It is also faster, meaning you are far less exposed to ganks to begin with, should you somehow miraculously fail at not ******* up and not being a ******.

Thus: not more HP, but more cargo space is the solution to increasing your transportation safety.
Phoenix Jones
Small-Arms Fire
#485 - 2014-11-11 13:53:05 UTC
Here's an idea. Would it make sense to prevent cargo scanners from scanning this ship (same as the blockade runners). It would be pretty much hit or miss whether you get anything from killing it.

Of course te counter argument is that every one of these ships will be gank on site.

Yaay!!!!
Dave Stark
#486 - 2014-11-11 13:55:03 UTC
Phoenix Jones wrote:
Here's an idea. Would it make sense to prevent cargo scanners from scanning this ship (same as the blockade runners). It would be pretty much hit or miss whether you get anything from killing it.

Of course te counter argument is that every one of these ships will be gank on site.


you already have some of this functionality; modules fitted to the ships in the ship bay will not show up on a scan.

you could be carrying trillions in officer modules in it, but nobody would know since all they'd see on a scan is a bunch of rifters, merlins and kestrels.
Sentenced 1989
#487 - 2014-11-11 14:00:59 UTC
This would work perfectly if fitted ships inside could hold stuff in cargo hold. Bugs the hell out of me when you have ship with example with few modules to refit (like web/sebo/painter) which you keep in cargo hold and then you have to move it out every time you put it ship maintenance and then later search in cargo hold which modules you had for each ship to move them back to ship cargo hold. Same goes for cyno fuel...

Any change of it actually being fleet hangar (which has no restrictions) or just making regular ship maintenance arrays behave like fleet hangars?

The Incursion Guild

Epic Arc Guide
S'No Flake
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#488 - 2014-11-11 14:04:34 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
Paynus Maiassus wrote:
Warr Akini wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Alright, we're talking about it here and think there's probably no good reason not to raise the HP some. Where do you guys think it needs to be to make say, three t2 fit BS, inefficient to gank?

And you're right about afk travel vs active travel, switching to agility to support align time sounds good to me.


Because you've done nothing but nerf Miniluv and highsec ganking for the last year and a half or so.


We need more nerfs to ganking in high. Hasn't been nerved nearly enough.

Let's be honest here. High sec tanking is extremely profitable. Your group brags constantly about it. Moving the EHP up where suicide ganking this ship with T2 fit battleships inside unprofitable is a good move.

I'm sure your group will turn that frown upside down and dry away the tears.


yeah except this ship already has ~400k ehp, it's already equalling the orca's ehp.

there's literally no justification for more ehp than "i want to mindlessly overload my cargo with no negative repercussions for my stupidity".


It carries about 4 times more than Oraca so, it needs 4 times more EHP to keep EHP/cargo ratio Evil
Phoenix Jones
Small-Arms Fire
#489 - 2014-11-11 14:05:44 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Phoenix Jones wrote:
Here's an idea. Would it make sense to prevent cargo scanners from scanning this ship (same as the blockade runners). It would be pretty much hit or miss whether you get anything from killing it.

Of course te counter argument is that every one of these ships will be gank on site.


you already have some of this functionality; modules fitted to the ships in the ship bay will not show up on a scan.

you could be carrying trillions in officer modules in it, but nobody would know since all they'd see on a scan is a bunch of rifters, merlins and kestrels.


But the ships themselves still do.

And anything that says "Faction Battleship" is pretty much DOA.

Yaay!!!!
S'No Flake
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#490 - 2014-11-11 14:10:25 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Use a blockade runner to move your fittings, use the Bowhead to move the rigged & insured hulls. ALSO ENSURE YOU DON'T AUTOPILOT THROUGH UEDAMA, NIARJA, DELTOLE or other 0.5 choke points.

Perhaps consider running alongside the hauler with logistics cruisers to ensure that would-be gankers have to focus on alpha damage rather than 30s worth of shooting.

And let's see where it stands after a couple of months, perhaps when CCP sees nobody using it they will try buffing it to the point that people feel safe carrying three Nightmare hulls in one hauler.


It doesn't matter if you autopilot or not. You will still be bumped out of alignment in the 8..10s MWD cycle.
And a 'choke point' it's well... a choke point. You can't avoid them unless you want to spend the next 3 days moving stuff while traveling 100+ jumps.
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#491 - 2014-11-11 14:20:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Zan Shiro
baltec1 wrote:
Malou Hashur wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
I have in-game fitting window showing around 350k EHP with a DCU II, 2x reinforced bulkheads II, 3x Transverse bulkhead I

This is in the same range as tank-oriented freighters - I'm sure people using the hauler would want as much as possible but this range should be reasonable, yes?


You've heard of Polarized weapons, yes ?



You have seen their cost yes?




take it these people have not seen how some 0.0 moves moon goo on bridged ops either.


For the home audience.....you support this with logistics. Good crews I have seen at least on the first empire interface have the freighters land into a group of logistics. The moon goo and other item freighters are targetted and reps blasted on them even if shots not even fired. One way to avoid a fight is to make it clear the fight not even worth starting A charon you know has basic support in abundance one example of how to implement this. They then get escorted to sale point to the same or lesser extent.

Moral of this story....if the cargo is worth that much to you, protect it. Now will come the well I don't wan't/have logi's on call for this. Well then travel fit your stuff and move it one at a time. CCP gave people what they wanted. But not all of it. A mobile monster fortress was not going to be in the cards. Take what you get and run with it really.
Dave Stark
#492 - 2014-11-11 14:23:18 UTC
S'No Flake wrote:
It carries about 4 times more than Oraca so, it needs 4 times more EHP to keep EHP/cargo ratio Evil


no it doesn't.

people need to be less dumb.
just because you have x cargo doesn't mean you need to fill all the space.

ehp/cargo ratio is about as useful and relevant as the slugs/snowflakes ratio of my garden.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#493 - 2014-11-11 14:28:44 UTC
S'No Flake wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:
Use a blockade runner to move your fittings, use the Bowhead to move the rigged & insured hulls. ALSO ENSURE YOU DON'T AUTOPILOT THROUGH UEDAMA, NIARJA, DELTOLE or other 0.5 choke points.

Perhaps consider running alongside the hauler with logistics cruisers to ensure that would-be gankers have to focus on alpha damage rather than 30s worth of shooting.

And let's see where it stands after a couple of months, perhaps when CCP sees nobody using it they will try buffing it to the point that people feel safe carrying three Nightmare hulls in one hauler.


It doesn't matter if you autopilot or not. You will still be bumped out of alignment in the 8..10s MWD cycle.
And a 'choke point' it's well... a choke point. You can't avoid them unless you want to spend the next 3 days moving stuff while traveling 100+ jumps.


If you feel this way then bring a fleet of your own for protection.
Anonymous Forumposter
State War Academy
Caldari State
#494 - 2014-11-11 14:29:55 UTC
Zan Shiro wrote:
take it these people have not seen how some 0.0 moves moon goo on bridged ops either.


For the home audience.....you support this with logistics. Good crews I have seen at least on the first empire interface have the freighters land into a group of logistics. The moon goo and other item freighters are targetted and reps blasted on them even if shots not even fired. One way to avoid a fight is to make it clear the fight not even worth starting A charon you know has basic support in abundance one example of how to implement this. They then get escorted to sale point to the same or lesser extent.

Moral of this story....if the cargo is worth that much to you, protect it. Now will come the well I don't wan't/have logi's on call for this. Well then travel fit your stuff and move it one at a time. CCP gave people what they wanted. But not all of it. A mobile monster fortress was not going to be in the cards. Take what you get and run with it really.


All of that is well and good for moon goo and other goods because you can't hop into your moon goo and fly it around. Needing three pilots to move 3 battleships nullifies any reason for this ship to exist. The whole point of this ship existing is to benefit the pilots flying them. In it's current form needing to be babysat by the same number of pilots as ships you're moving or more, makes the ship less appealing than the Nestor. CCP Spent money on this ship. CCP spent money you paid them on this ship. CCP Spent money on this that is now not available to spend on other things. Do you want your money to matter? Or just end up in a another terrible neglected ship?

TL;DR Your argument of "Use more pilots to protect it" negates any benefit of this ship whatsoever. So in fact, your argument is in FAVOR of a buff, not against it, despite your intentions.
Dave Stark
#495 - 2014-11-11 14:30:56 UTC
Anonymous Forumposter wrote:
Zan Shiro wrote:
take it these people have not seen how some 0.0 moves moon goo on bridged ops either.


For the home audience.....you support this with logistics. Good crews I have seen at least on the first empire interface have the freighters land into a group of logistics. The moon goo and other item freighters are targetted and reps blasted on them even if shots not even fired. One way to avoid a fight is to make it clear the fight not even worth starting A charon you know has basic support in abundance one example of how to implement this. They then get escorted to sale point to the same or lesser extent.

Moral of this story....if the cargo is worth that much to you, protect it. Now will come the well I don't wan't/have logi's on call for this. Well then travel fit your stuff and move it one at a time. CCP gave people what they wanted. But not all of it. A mobile monster fortress was not going to be in the cards. Take what you get and run with it really.


All of that is well and good for moon goo and other goods because you can't hop into your moon goo and fly it around. Needing three pilots to move 3 battleships nullifies any reason for this ship to exist. The whole point of this ship existing is to benefit the pilots flying them. In it's current form needing to be babysat by the same number of pilots as ships you're moving or more, makes the ship less appealing than the Nestor. CCP Spent money on this ship. CCP spent money you paid them on this ship. CCP Spent money on this that is now not available to spend on other things. Do you want your money to matter? Or just end up in a another terrible neglected ship?

TL;DR Your argument of "Use more pilots to protect it" negates any benefit of this ship whatsoever. So in fact, your argument is in FAVOR of a buff, not against it, despite your intentions.


i doubt it takes 90 ships to protect it though, so it's still useful for moving harpies....
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#496 - 2014-11-11 14:41:52 UTC
Anonymous Forumposter wrote:
Zan Shiro wrote:
take it these people have not seen how some 0.0 moves moon goo on bridged ops either.


For the home audience.....you support this with logistics. Good crews I have seen at least on the first empire interface have the freighters land into a group of logistics. The moon goo and other item freighters are targetted and reps blasted on them even if shots not even fired. One way to avoid a fight is to make it clear the fight not even worth starting A charon you know has basic support in abundance one example of how to implement this. They then get escorted to sale point to the same or lesser extent.

Moral of this story....if the cargo is worth that much to you, protect it. Now will come the well I don't wan't/have logi's on call for this. Well then travel fit your stuff and move it one at a time. CCP gave people what they wanted. But not all of it. A mobile monster fortress was not going to be in the cards. Take what you get and run with it really.


All of that is well and good for moon goo and other goods because you can't hop into your moon goo and fly it around. Needing three pilots to move 3 battleships nullifies any reason for this ship to exist. The whole point of this ship existing is to benefit the pilots flying them. In it's current form needing to be babysat by the same number of pilots as ships you're moving or more, makes the ship less appealing than the Nestor. CCP Spent money on this ship. CCP spent money you paid them on this ship. CCP Spent money on this that is now not available to spend on other things. Do you want your money to matter? Or just end up in a another terrible neglected ship?

TL;DR Your argument of "Use more pilots to protect it" negates any benefit of this ship whatsoever. So in fact, your argument is in FAVOR of a buff, not against it, despite your intentions.


I dont have 3 pilots to move my battleships but I do have an escort fleet when we deploy. This ship ticks all the right boxes for me.
O'drwex Dythoni
S0utherN Comfort
#497 - 2014-11-11 14:46:41 UTC
am i reading this right ? barely 3 battleships in hold and you're full?
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#498 - 2014-11-11 14:46:54 UTC
Zan Shiro wrote:

take it these people have not seen how some 0.0 moves moon goo on bridged ops either.

I guess they don't have jump freighters where you live.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#499 - 2014-11-11 14:55:32 UTC
O'drwex Dythoni wrote:
am i reading this right ? barely 3 battleships in hold and you're full?


Or an entire harpy fleet.
S'No Flake
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#500 - 2014-11-11 15:01:10 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
S'No Flake wrote:
It carries about 4 times more than Oraca so, it needs 4 times more EHP to keep EHP/cargo ratio Evil


no it doesn't.

people need to be less dumb.
just because you have x cargo doesn't mean you need to fill all the space.

ehp/cargo ratio is about as useful and relevant as the slugs/snowflakes ratio of my garden.


That was sarcasm :P

Most people flying freighters have a web alt (which can fail on regional gates) so, i don't see the point of using this ship if you are
an incursion runner flying your logi/DPS ships to a new spawn or your DPS/Sniper ships. You can get much more buffer from your individual ships with travel fit and allows you to use mwd+cloak and you can use ASB+AAR.

If you have to move more than 2 ships, this new freighter it's pretty much useless as you will still have to do 2 runs because of how expensive your cargo is: 2 pirate hulls + 2 logi ships will go way over 2bil mark (without fittings) hence, 2 trips.

I might be wrong but i don't see any case where this ships is better for anyone with 2 characters.
And if you have only one character only, the amount you will move at one time to be somehow gank safe will make it useless and you are better using an orca.