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[Rhea] Introducing the Bowhead

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Makalu Zarya
Rage and Terror
Against ALL Authorities
#221 - 2014-11-10 17:45:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Makalu Zarya
Cr Turist wrote:


ummm please dont listen to this guy. what you propose is make a gank proof swiss army knife that does all the things better than any of the things. that just silly.
i can see giving it more EHP as it needs a little more. i can see giving it a LITTLE bit more room for ships as i agree 3BS is pretty useless. all that other Crazy you wrote how ever is insane and would make this the most seen ship in eve since titans.

P.S. Fix the Ishtar


he knows what he is talking about...I didn't have to read this to know it though.
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#222 - 2014-11-10 17:48:36 UTC  |  Edited by: PotatoOverdose
Dave Stark wrote:

this, so much.

it shouldn't be designed to be unprofitable to gank with 3 marauders/pirate battleships inside it.

unprofitable to gank with 3 unfit megathrons? sure, but not 3 unfit vindicators.

Sure, it should have enough tank to be unprofitable to gank while carrying unfit megathrons in Niarja. It's role necessitates traveling from one side of hisec to the other. Going through 0.5 systems (like Niarja) is a necessary part of that role, ergo it should have sufficient tank to do the job of carrying the unfit megathrons throughout hisec.
Masao Kurata
Perkone
Caldari State
#223 - 2014-11-10 17:50:12 UTC
In addition to everything I've said I'd like to add that I would be happy to use one or at least know a friend who has one with the current stats. In fact I'm a little concerned that it might already be OP on the basis of making switching to a battleship when not aggressed too easy (then again command ships are pretty powerful so it might not be that big a deal).
Masao Kurata
Perkone
Caldari State
#224 - 2014-11-10 17:52:36 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:

this, so much.

it shouldn't be designed to be unprofitable to gank with 3 marauders/pirate battleships inside it.

unprofitable to gank with 3 unfit megathrons? sure, but not 3 unfit vindicators.

Sure, it should have enough tank to be unprofitable to gank while carrying unfit megathrons in Niarja. It's role necessitates traveling from one side of hisec to the other. Going through 0.5 systems (like Niarja) is a necessary part of that role, ergo it should have sufficient tank to do the job of carrying the unfit megathrons throughout hisec.


It already does, properly fitted this has over 400k EHP while at the same time getting 10s warps with a MWD. I would be very comfortable moving three T2 fitted battleships without an escort with those stats and if you aren't, that sounds like a problem for a psychiatrist.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#225 - 2014-11-10 17:54:25 UTC
Just over 400k EHP with full tank and enough space to carry 4 BS should hit the sweet spot. That way, you can carry a lot of cheap ships quickly (speed fit) or a couple of expensive ships somewhat safely (tank fit) and not have the whole thing be absurd. If the agility bonus can push it down to below the standard 10s for and MWD fit, then that's the bonus it should have, if not, it's pretty pointless — give it warp speed instead.

Hideously expensive meta-bajillion mods should travel separately in a BR regardless, so that's not even a factor.
Cr Turist
Arcana Noctis
#226 - 2014-11-10 17:54:46 UTC
IDEA why not have the expander rigs give its bonus to the ship hanger. if you want to hold more ships give up some rig slots.
Ezra Endashi
Absolute Order
Absolute Honor
#227 - 2014-11-10 17:55:10 UTC
I like it so far! Big smile Any pictures?
Summer Isle
Autumn Industrial Enterprises
#228 - 2014-11-10 17:58:22 UTC
Robert Caldera wrote:
Praal wrote:

Ask all the "insta"-align ceptors that get killed in nullsec how that works out for safety.


how does this work? instawarping means you cant lock it regardless of your scan res,
leaving smartbombs as only option at your disposal to kill them.

Without having the nitty-gritty details, it deals with ping time. Those who are close to the servers (aka, Londoners) are able to beat the clock under specific conditions (such as keeping their points hot while furiously mashing their ships overview after seeing a gate flash or being given advanced notice from a scout).

I don't have the fullest details available, unfortunately. There was a post either on the EVEO forums or on Reddit some months back where someone went through the numbers and showed that to have a truly-unlockable ship, you have to be below something like 1.75 seconds for your align (not sure on the exact numbers) and not be using an y iStabs (meaning there are very, very few ships that can actually accomplish this).

In my own experiences, looking at various 'insta-warping' fits that show up on the killboards, a lot of people seem to forget that they don't have all skills at V when fitting up their ships, so while their fit may have 1.9 seconds to align at all V's, their own skills are above the 2-second threshold.

All in all, it's pretty uncommon. At least personally, I do a lot of travel through lowsec in a 1.92-second-align Atron, and I've only ever been caught once (negated by having a stab fit, fortunately).

Mind you, all of this is what I could remember from the aforementioned thread. I may well be remembering it incorrectly, so if someone either has a link to the thread in question or remembers it more clearly, by all means, please do correct me!

 Talk is cheap, but Void S and Quake L are cheaper.
Jian Mira
Edgar Industries
#229 - 2014-11-10 17:59:18 UTC
Why No Drones???????

A Orca has Drones... Don't see any uses for this ship

Only a ideat would fly this ship with a ship inside it!
Maul555
Xen Investments
#230 - 2014-11-10 18:00:34 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Alright, we're talking about it here and think there's probably no good reason not to raise the HP some. Where do you guys think it needs to be to make say, three t2 fit BS, inefficient to gank?

And you're right about afk travel vs active travel, switching to agility to support align time sounds good to me.



Wow!!!
Paynus Maiassus
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#231 - 2014-11-10 18:01:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Paynus Maiassus
Yes, after reading some posts, please removed the jump fatigue reduction. Can't have null guys Titan bridging these things everywhere. These are high sec ships, or ships to be used locally in deep blue space like freighters are used in null (with the exception of their moving gigantic system upgrades around by Titan bridging - something that needs to change). And same goes for a T2 version for moving caps that I suggested a few posts back.

Actually, these things should have a role penalty that makes them generate 10 times MORE fatigue. Especially for any future version that might move capital ships - lore reason would be that if a ship is cyno'd that contains active jump/gate drives, the space-time continuum gets messed up or something. Kinda like John Malkovich going through his own portal.
Rockstede
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#232 - 2014-11-10 18:01:49 UTC
Seeing as these are fitted ships or that is to say, fully operational ships. Is it not feasible to assume that the defensive capabilities of the ships onboard could be added to the Bowheads systems?

By this I mean that a Bowhead with 3 x incursion fitted pirate battleships would be harder to kill than the same ship with 3 fitted Ravens.


Perhaps the HP of the Bowhead could be set quite low to start with and then cumulated with the ships it has stored, upto some theoretical maximum?
TerminalSamurai Sunji
Perkone
Caldari State
#233 - 2014-11-10 18:03:44 UTC
Valtrinor wrote:
NOTE: I say the following not in this character's current role as a nullsec pilot, but as someone who also does highsec logistics and has done many different things in highsec, lowsec, and wormhole space as well. Keep that in mind for my comments to fully make sense, I'm not primarily talking about this in a nullsec context!

So let me get this straight...

  • Less HP than an Orca (10,750 / 6,900 / 46,000)
  • 2.6x the mass of an Orca (250,000,000 kg) and 5.8x the sig radius
  • Can fit an absolute maximum of 3 battleships, the only class it's actually needed for at current.
  • No High slot(s) to counteract any of the Orca comparison, which the Orca has highs
  • Less HP than any single ship which actually justifies the use of this ship in moving

Yeah, I'll pass. This looks like a giant blinking neon "GANK ME" sign with two strobe lights on top, and nothing to make that risk worthwhile. Please tell me it's meant to troll the entire community? That's pretty much how it comes across.


I completely agree, if CCP is going to take the time to add a new ship and new skills to go along with that ship, at least take the time to think this through. Your asking for people to pay for more than an orca and get less tank and utility (no cloaking high) than an orca. Not really sure where the logic is. Also the fact that my hauling toon will have yet another reason to train ORE skills is beyond me. With the advent of ships actually dropping from this thing it's way to gank efficient to be used.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#234 - 2014-11-10 18:07:10 UTC
Paynus Maiassus wrote:
Yes, after reading some posts, please removed the jump fatigue reduction. Can't have null guys Titan bridging these things everywhere. These are high sec ships, or ships to be used locally in deep blue space like freighters are used in null (with the exception of their moving gigantic system upgrades around by Titan bridging - something that needs to change). And same goes for a T2 version for moving caps that I suggested a few posts back.

Actually, these things should have a role penalty that makes them generate 10 times MORE fatigue. Especially for any future version that might move capital ships - lore reason would be that if a ship is cyno'd that contains cyno capable ships, the space-time continuum gets messed up or something. Kinda like John Malkovich going through his own portal.

But the remaining stats on the Bowhead

Using chains of titans to bridge things around post-Phoebe is impractical, because the titans themselves are subject to fatigue and cannot be rapidly redeployed to handle the very multi-front combat you allude to in your post. Pre-positioning titans is also infeasible due to the high cost and the fact that account sharing is forbidden under the Eve: Online Terms of Service.

Not to mention, interceptors + jump freighters are far more efficient at the job. Why does everyone forget about jump freighters and interceptors? While they are a thing, none of these complicated, fatigue-beating vignettes work.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Petra Hakaari
Stalking Wolfpack
#235 - 2014-11-10 18:07:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Petra Hakaari
Belligerent Undesirable wrote:
Change the speed bonus to 4% shield resist per level and give it +1 mid



Indeed, as CCP Rise said on #1, this ship has a very clear intended role:
CCP Rise wrote:
There isn't much else to say other than that this ship is intended for a specific niche: high-sec transport of fitted/insured ships.



And for all its known how soam pirates like to talos down some shinny fitten vindicators of them incursionbears XD


So it'd make perfect sense.


Besides, "travel speed" means sublight engine... which is totally stupid, because if someone is autopiloting this in bearsec it deserves to be ganked, but like, bigtime XD

Because tities .
Masao Kurata
Perkone
Caldari State
#236 - 2014-11-10 18:10:24 UTC
TerminalSamurai Sunji wrote:
Your asking for people to pay for more than an orca and get less tank ...


If by "less" you mean "more". The extra low lets you fit an extra bulkhead, giving you almost the same amount of hull while having more shield and armor HP.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#237 - 2014-11-10 18:14:37 UTC
Querns wrote:
Slevin-Kelevra wrote:

I am talking about null sec jump bridges mate. With the 90% reduction you can move your whole fleet across the map using jump bridges, and gain very little fatigue doing so.

This is a nice hail mary, but it falls flat for the same reasons that TRAVEL INDUSTRIALS fall flat — namely, bubbles exist, jump freighters exist, and jump bridges are still one per system.

Besides, why wouldn't one salivate at the prospect of fleets of Bowheads traveling through space, ready to be dragged and summarily executed? Wouldn't one want the reasons for these ships to undock in 0.0 to be increased, not strangled?


There are no bubbles on a titan bridge route.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
HK -56
Doomheim
#238 - 2014-11-10 18:14:53 UTC
Am I the only capsuleer that doesn't like seeing yet another new skill being introduced that affects just a single thing?
Paynus Maiassus
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#239 - 2014-11-10 18:15:16 UTC
Querns wrote:
Paynus Maiassus wrote:
Yes, after reading some posts, please removed the jump fatigue reduction. Can't have null guys Titan bridging these things everywhere. These are high sec ships, or ships to be used locally in deep blue space like freighters are used in null (with the exception of their moving gigantic system upgrades around by Titan bridging - something that needs to change). And same goes for a T2 version for moving caps that I suggested a few posts back.

Actually, these things should have a role penalty that makes them generate 10 times MORE fatigue. Especially for any future version that might move capital ships - lore reason would be that if a ship is cyno'd that contains cyno capable ships, the space-time continuum gets messed up or something. Kinda like John Malkovich going through his own portal.

But the remaining stats on the Bowhead

Using chains of titans to bridge things around post-Phoebe is impractical, because the titans themselves are subject to fatigue and cannot be rapidly redeployed to handle the very multi-front combat you allude to in your post. Pre-positioning titans is also infeasible due to the high cost and the fact that account sharing is forbidden under the Eve: Online Terms of Service.

Not to mention, interceptors + jump freighters are far more efficient at the job. Why does everyone forget about jump freighters and interceptors? While they are a thing, none of these complicated, fatigue-beating vignettes work.


Yes, my knowledge about Titan bridging logistics operations post-Phoebe is limited as I haven't been in proximity to it since the changes and have not thought about it deeply. However, I still think it is worthwhile to remove the fatigue bonus and potentially implement a fatigue nerf just to completely cement these things outside the realm of cyno operations and prevent some niche use that some creative players could potentially make use of. Also if the game evolves and there are changes to jumping with future updates. For instance if CCP develops some sort of bridging ship other than Titans in order to improve some other aspect of the game at some point, it will already be established that bridging is just something you don't do with this ship, and avoiding the need for a future nerf that may frustrate players. Better to implement a meaningless penalty now so it's set in everybody's mind that you just don't bridge this thing and from the beginning it will be excluded from anything CCP may want to do with bridging in the future.
Jean Luc Lemmont
Carebears on Fire
#240 - 2014-11-10 18:17:52 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Darirol wrote:
why do all those industrial ships have a speed bonus?


Because travel speed is one of the most important characteristics for haulers. Capacity, gank resilience and travel speed are basically it.


Given the current highsec meta of "GANK ALL THE THINGS", I think many people, myself inluded, see a raw speed bonus as a waste. With Bumper Cars Online, a speed bonus is less than useless - it's actually harmful since it increases the unmodified time it takes you to get into warp.

Please consider an agility or (!) hull resistance bonus modifier per level.

Will I get banned for boxing!?!?!

This thread has degenerated to the point it's become like two bald men fighting over a comb. -- Doc Fury

It's bonuses, not boni, you cretins.