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Canon and clones
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Xavi Bastanold
Sveipar Trade and Transport
#1 - 2014-11-09 19:42:05 UTC
I was thinking of clones in the game and that got me wondering about clones in the EVE universe in general. For example, when a capsuleer dies in a pod, how is this information sent to the dormant clone-in-waiting at the med center? Does it travel as some huge transmission packet to the nearest gate, then jumps from gate to gate until is reaches the home system? And what about a wormhole? No gate there, so all info is lost that might have occurred in the wh? Assuming that would include skills learned there too. Maybe there's a timer for medical clones should they not receive a regularly scheduled 'I'm alive' signal, and the clone activates with whatever memories it had stored to that point?

What if ships were required to house an autonomous unit that received within some huge radius dead capsuleer data, then sent it to the nearest gate?

Lots of ideas revolving around this for stories, including a clone who emerges only to find her ship was last registered going through a worm hole and never returned. Where did she last die and under what circumstances? Is she possibly still alive out there in the previous clone?

Good hunting,

Xavi
Jace Sarice
#2 - 2014-11-09 19:49:57 UTC
If you look at the science articles on the Evelopedia you will get the answers to several of your questions.
Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#3 - 2014-11-09 22:52:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Samira Kernher
Communication in EVE works by quantum entanglement. The burn scanner in your pod is one half of a quantum pair with the cloning devices in your cloning center. Ergo the connection is instantaneous as quantum states in a pair are shared identically regardless of distance. Theortically, this means you could be on the other side of the universe and you would still wake up instantaeously in your clone.

For this reason, it is likewise not possible to jam transmissions in EVE, short of outright destroying or damaging the communication device on one end before any transmission is sent.

Additionally, the standard clones we use do not have memories stored. Their brains are a blank mush. The brain is then molded into the current structure at the exact moment the burn scanner fires and transmits the information.

Backup clones do exist, as confirmed by Source--that is, clones saved up to a specific date and time and which would remember nothing that has transpired by the 'main copy' since then. These are most usually used for 'extravehicular' excursions by capsuleers, IE walking around outside the pod. In such case as the capsuleer's death outside the pod while they have a backup in store, the implants in the capsuleer likely transmit the termination signal to the cloning facility when they die, which would then activate the backup. This backup would remember nothing that has happened since they were created.

Articles you will want to read:

Faster than Light Communication

Cloning
Tavin Aikisen
Phoenix Naval Operations
Phoenix Naval Systems
#4 - 2014-11-09 23:56:28 UTC
Samira Kernher wrote:

Backup clones do exist, as confirmed by Source--that is, clones saved up to a specific date and time and which would remember nothing that has transpired by the 'main copy' since then. These are most usually used for 'extravehicular' excursions by capsuleers, IE walking around outside the pod. In such case as the capsuleer's death outside the pod while they have a backup in store, the implants in the capsuleer likely transmit the termination signal to the cloning facility when they die, which would then activate the backup. This backup would remember nothing that has happened since they were created.


The one thing I can't get my head around with this part, is whether our consciousness is still transferred as with our pods? Or do we simply "become" the awoken clone? Or does it still transfer?

"Remember this. Trust your eyes, you will kill each other. Trust your veins, you can all go home."

-Cold Wind
Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#5 - 2014-11-10 00:58:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Samira Kernher
There is no transfer with backups. That's the point of them being backups. Without the transneural burning scanner and pod, you can't make an instant and complete copy of the brain's neural map at time of death. Ergo, they can only use an older copy, saved at an earlier time. You can only rely on previously saved data.

It should be noted that there is really no such thing as 'transfer of consciousness', even in the burn scan. It's not some magical process that moves consciousness from body 1 to body 2. It is making a digital copy and replication of the brain's neural map no matter which way you slice it, just burn scanning is doing it in an instantaneous moment and backups are simply saving the data in a computer database to be used at a later date if necessary, instead of using it instantly. In both cases, a digital copy of the brain's neural map is made and used to grow an exact duplica in the clone's head.

One can still consider that a continuation, but the term 'transfer of consciousness' is really vague and doesn't really adequately describe the process. no matter which way you slice it, cloning is making a xerox copy of the brain map. It is like having two computers, one in the US and one in Europe. You scan a document with the one in the US, then you send the saved file by email to the one in Europe, which then prints out a copy. The only difference between the burn scan and the backup in this example is that in the first the copy is printed out immediately and in the second the copy is kept on the disk until needed later.
Xavi Bastanold
Sveipar Trade and Transport
#6 - 2014-11-10 16:45:02 UTC
Thanks for the input! I'd read a couple of the chronicle articles on cloning. Here's what I've picked up so far.

The burn scan is the thing. A clone is a cadaver that has slowly been mutated through various methods to physically appear similar to the host, while the brain is constructed into a shape and structure that can receive accurately the final burn scan. When the burn scan hits the clone's brain is made virtually identical to the original's. The process continues on for a time even after the clone gains consciousness, and the impression is similar to one regaining memory following passing out.

I'd forgotten about the quantum entanglement property of scan transfer at death. That would solve the space/time factor rather neatly.

It's also true that capsuleers aren't always in their pods, so having clones with brains fully mapped out from an earlier time would be an alternative. I guess they'd be in an induced coma until its activation was required or no longer needed? I guess that would be the scenario for what I was thinking. A capsuleer dies while out of her pod. The clone awakens after some mandatory check-in period has elapsed. If the original capsuleer died while alone or through an act that required secrecy, then her clone upon awaking could have little to no information on her predecessor's demise.

Good hunting,

Xavi
Xavi Bastanold
Sveipar Trade and Transport
#7 - 2014-11-10 16:59:07 UTC
The other thing is that if a capsuleer has a backup clone with fully realized consciousness at an earlier save date, then there might be real concern for the possibility of multiple clones of a single person being out and about. If a capsuleer dies outside their pod in a back alley, then gets incinerated by her killers, the backup copy will eventually activate. When?

I'm thinking if it's set too short a time period, the possibility of multiple copies increases. For example, a capsuleer goes into a wormhole and gets stuck for a bit, maybe stranded at a POS for a time, followed by a slow return to known space. If the backup is set to awake after a month without any check-in from the host, there could very well be two copies of her by the time the original finds her way back. So, maybe a large amount of time is set by authorities. And, if backups are only activated after a long time period, it's also possible the the backup will have no inkling of what would have led to her predecessor's death. A lot can happen in 6 months to a year.

Good hunting,

Xavi
Esna Pitoojee
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#8 - 2014-11-10 18:09:54 UTC
Xavi Bastanold wrote:
The other thing is that if a capsuleer has a backup clone with fully realized consciousness at an earlier save date, then there might be real concern for the possibility of multiple clones of a single person being out and about. If a capsuleer dies outside their pod in a back alley, then gets incinerated by her killers, the backup copy will eventually activate. When?

I'm thinking if it's set too short a time period, the possibility of multiple copies increases. For example, a capsuleer goes into a wormhole and gets stuck for a bit, maybe stranded at a POS for a time, followed by a slow return to known space. If the backup is set to awake after a month without any check-in from the host, there could very well be two copies of her by the time the original finds her way back. So, maybe a large amount of time is set by authorities. And, if backups are only activated after a long time period, it's also possible the the backup will have no inkling of what would have led to her predecessor's death. A lot can happen in 6 months to a year.


One thing to keep in mind is that quantum entanglement communication does not decrease in strength with distance. So long as the transmitter and receiver stations are still in the same universe, they will communicate. So,going into W-space will not prevent a signal from being transmitted to your clone.

However, the questions you raise are relevant - and no solid answer has been provided. As soft-clones have long existed in a sort of half-acknowledged limbo in prime fiction, players have developed several different theories about how they might work, none of them confirmed.
Gunnar Toralen
Empty Horizon
#9 - 2014-12-08 02:58:20 UTC
Now that I'm reading that article, where do they get the cadavers? People who don't want to be immortal anymore?
inta Vakaria
BoomTime
House of Boom
#10 - 2014-12-09 00:35:58 UTC
I was reading about cloning in eve today myself, you may find this interesting:

Clones are manufactured using biomass. Modern methods allow pretty much any kind of biomass to be used. The best clones are constructed from human cadavers, but anything from animal carcasses to organic soups can be used. Using lower quality materials requires more extensive structuring and chemical processes and introduces a greater risk for error in the transfer of the customer's features.
At the time of purchase, the customer undergoes a thorough examination and several tissue samples are taken. This is then used to construct a clone of the customer – a clone that receives the consciousness of the original at the moment of death, granting a new life.
At Cromeaux Inc. all clones are made from certified human cadavers, all of them received from willing donors. The biomass has not been tampered with or thinned out – only highest quality preservatives have been introduced to hinder tissue decomposition. Cromeaux Inc. mission is to establish itself as the manufacturer of clones of the very highest quality and its clientele can rest assured that the underhanded tactics used by so many clone stations do not apply for its operation. All federal laws and regulations are applied rigorously, with governmental inspectors a permanent feature on all our stations.

There's a few more pages worth of text about cloning if your interested, the info is fairly old I think, so it might not all be current lore friendly but I doubt too much has changed, here's the link, http://cdn1.eveonline.com/pdf/eve_v1.4_black.pdf , cloning starts on page 22
Xavi Bastanold
Sveipar Trade and Transport
#11 - 2014-12-09 16:31:18 UTC
Gunnar Toralen wrote:
Now that I'm reading that article, where do they get the cadavers? People who don't want to be immortal anymore?


Being a capsuleer is an expensive process, I think. Even by EVE standards. The other thing that may limit capsuleer candidates is handling death followed by reincarnation. Some people aren't able to manage it and get seriously imbalanced psychologically--or just go insane.

The cadavers can be from anyone and are used like a shell from which a new brain can be grown and physical features molded to replicate the capsuleer's original physical appearance.

Good hunting,

Xavi
Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#12 - 2014-12-09 17:03:48 UTC
Xavi Bastanold wrote:
Gunnar Toralen wrote:
Now that I'm reading that article, where do they get the cadavers? People who don't want to be immortal anymore?


Being a capsuleer is an expensive process, I think. Even by EVE standards. The other thing that may limit capsuleer candidates is handling death followed by reincarnation. Some people aren't able to manage it and get seriously imbalanced psychologically--or just go insane.

The cadavers can be from anyone and are used like a shell from which a new brain can be grown and physical features molded to replicate the capsuleer's original physical appearance.

I was under the impression that biomass is harvested, then broken down and constructed into a literal genetic and complete clone body.

"A City made of Dreams is built in heaven"
EdwardNardella
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#13 - 2014-12-18 13:52:33 UTC
Quote:
Communication in EVE works by quantum entanglement.

Lots of short range communication is done without quantum entanglement.
Quote:
Being a capsuleer is an expensive process, I think. Even by EVE standards. The other thing that may limit capsuleer candidates is handling death followed by reincarnation. Some people aren't able to manage it and get seriously imbalanced psychologically--or just go insane.

Another thing that limits the number of capsuleers is the prerequisites to become one. You have to be in good physical shape, extremely intelligent, have extensive schooling (think masters university level). The program takes (7 I think) years to complete, many people drop out either due to death, stress, or inability to meet requirements.
Scila Jiogrin
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#14 - 2014-12-20 04:51:45 UTC
Quote:
Lots of ideas revolving around this for stories, including a clone who emerges only to find her ship was last registered going through a worm hole and never returned. Where did she last die and under what circumstances? Is she possibly still alive out there in the previous clone?


Oooh. Thats Juicy.
You could make a whole saga with that premise.
Scila Jiogrin
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#15 - 2014-12-20 04:59:40 UTC
Samira Kernher wrote:
There is no transfer with backups. That's the point of them being backups. Without the transneural burning scanner and pod, you can't make an instant and complete copy of the brain's neural map at time of death. Ergo, they can only use an older copy, saved at an earlier time. You can only rely on previously saved data.

It should be noted that there is really no such thing as 'transfer of consciousness', even in the burn scan. It's not some magical process that moves consciousness from body 1 to body 2. It is making a digital copy and replication of the brain's neural map no matter which way you slice it, just burn scanning is doing it in an instantaneous moment and backups are simply saving the data in a computer database to be used at a later date if necessary, instead of using it instantly. In both cases, a digital copy of the brain's neural map is made and used to grow an exact duplica in the clone's head.

One can still consider that a continuation, but the term 'transfer of consciousness' is really vague and doesn't really adequately describe the process. no matter which way you slice it, cloning is making a xerox copy of the brain map. It is like having two computers, one in the US and one in Europe. You scan a document with the one in the US, then you send the saved file by email to the one in Europe, which then prints out a copy. The only difference between the burn scan and the backup in this example is that in the first the copy is printed out immediately and in the second the copy is kept on the disk until needed later.


If the burn is merely a "Xeroxing" of the neural pattern and not a true transfer of conciousness, isnt it feasible to have any number of clones setup to receive that image upon death? Why not make two or three clones of yourself upon death?
Clone Wars Shocked
Scila Jiogrin
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#16 - 2014-12-20 05:12:54 UTC
inta Vakaria wrote:
I was reading about cloning in eve today myself, you may find this interesting:

Clones are manufactured using biomass. Modern methods allow pretty much any kind of biomass to be used. The best clones are constructed from human cadavers, but anything from animal carcasses to organic soups can be used. Using lower quality materials requires more extensive structuring and chemical processes and introduces a greater risk for error in the transfer of the customer's features.
At the time of purchase, the customer undergoes a thorough examination and several tissue samples are taken. This is then used to construct a clone of the customer – a clone that receives the consciousness of the original at the moment of death, granting a new life.
At Cromeaux Inc. all clones are made from certified human cadavers, all of them received from willing donors. The biomass has not been tampered with or thinned out – only highest quality preservatives have been introduced to hinder tissue decomposition. Cromeaux Inc. mission is to establish itself as the manufacturer of clones of the very highest quality and its clientele can rest assured that the underhanded tactics used by so many clone stations do not apply for its operation. All federal laws and regulations are applied rigorously, with governmental inspectors a permanent feature on all our stations.

There's a few more pages worth of text about cloning if your interested, the info is fairly old I think, so it might not all be current lore friendly but I doubt too much has changed, here's the link, http://cdn1.eveonline.com/pdf/eve_v1.4_black.pdf , cloning starts on page 22


I read that part of the article and thought
Why does the clone have to look the way it does?
Surely something like body modification could rise in niche Capsuleer markets, ranging from mildly useful to down right monstrous. or instance four arms, prehensile tails, independently moving eyes, extra digits, etc. And on the other side of the Body mod coin youd have the evne more niche market. Modifications for aesthetics, or horror.
The Ship processes the Pod does control are controlled essentially telepathically, so a humanoid figure isn't actually neccesary, and with the amount of wealth the average Capsuleer has amassed, i'm sure a custom pod could be put together to accomodate the more extreme clones.
Partial or other than humanoid clones should be viable, yes?
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#17 - 2014-12-26 07:59:14 UTC
i wouldn't mind trying out a gender bender appendage, to see how the other side is living.

Help, I can't download EVE

President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub

PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
Xiaohui
#18 - 2014-12-26 08:17:05 UTC
The idea that extracapsular death is permanent for that brain state might be changing in the near future, with the advent of the clone soldier implants. It wouldn't be much for a capsuleer to have a capsule clone (working in the way it does now) and a station clone (working the way clone soldiers do).

Home One - My in character short stories blog.
Teinyhr
Ourumur
#19 - 2014-12-26 09:48:15 UTC
Xiaohui wrote:
The idea that extracapsular death is permanent for that brain state might be changing in the near future, with the advent of the clone soldier implants. It wouldn't be much for a capsuleer to have a capsule clone (working in the way it does now) and a station clone (working the way clone soldiers do).


Well, until CCP decides ot alter their stance, to my knowledge capsuleer implants and clone soldier implants are inherently incompatible. Officially, CONCORD also doesn't allow multiple sentient clones of the same person to exist at the same time, altough this has occasionally happened, and I'm not sure how it has been resolved in-universe when it has.

Of course maybe some day, someone invents a way to combine the technologies or new ways for mind transfer, but well, we'll just have to wait.
Xiaohui
#20 - 2014-12-26 09:53:45 UTC
Teinyhr wrote:
Xiaohui wrote:
The idea that extracapsular death is permanent for that brain state might be changing in the near future, with the advent of the clone soldier implants. It wouldn't be much for a capsuleer to have a capsule clone (working in the way it does now) and a station clone (working the way clone soldiers do).


Well, until CCP decides ot alter their stance, to my knowledge capsuleer implants and clone soldier implants are inherently incompatible. Officially, CONCORD also doesn't allow multiple sentient clones of the same person to exist at the same time, altough this has occasionally happened, and I'm not sure how it has been resolved in-universe when it has.

Of course maybe some day, someone invents a way to combine the technologies or new ways for mind transfer, but well, we'll just have to wait.


It would be like clone jumping. Exit capsule, enter stasis tub, go to sleep, wake up in a clone with a different implant.

Something like this was mentioned at EVE Vegas, where someone from CCP stated that there was really no reason why a Capsuleer can't be a pod pilot one day, a dust soldier the next, and a Valkyrie on another. It was a pretty exciting talk but yeah, it all depends on what CCP wants to do with it.

Home One - My in character short stories blog.
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