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TIDI is killing EVE Online

First post
Author
Buma Firuu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2014-11-07 17:13:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Buma Firuu
All the changes brought by all releases, from TIDI birth till now, are irrelevant.

The most important things to fix are lag and TIDI (no1 enemy of an ejoyable EVE Online).
Last night I took part ( for the first time in my EVE history and life ) in a sov null fight in U-QVWD,
with merely 600 pilots when I was there.

This is what all new pilots wants and dream of, to be part of big events and fights that shape EVE history.
But the reality was cruel, not because I lost my ship without even activating a single module,
not because my alliance lost a battle or whatever.
It was a cruel reality because lag spread its venom everywhere, and then in the staging system,
TIDI showed itself to me like a merciless GOD.

TIDI destroyed my imaginary big juicy heroic fights with capital ships and all that sheep.
It really was not important for me to loose or to win the fight, nor my ship or my pod, because I prepared myself for that.
What I was not prepared for was TIDI and the experience of a broken game that had nothing to do with the EVE that I knew till then. It was critically important to enjoy a game that can offer big fleet fights in a normal client/server behavior, like small gang fights or 1v1 duels.

I was very disappointed , suddenly when TIDI hit the game it was not anymore the grandiose EVE Online MMO
best game of the 20XX , but it was a broken game, a FMMO= Failed Massively Multiplayer Offline game.

I thought ; How can the other guys like this sheep ? How can anyone like a game that is broke in one of its most advertized features, in that of Massively Multiplaying (big fleet fights) ?

I think the most important thing that CCP should do, is to fix up EVE Online as a real MMO, so that the players can enjoy 1k or 2k or 3k or xk pilots in local system fights as they do in 1v1 without TIDI & CO.
Everything else is not important anymore for me.

I learned a very bitter lesson and reality ; I can not play EVE Online in its funniest manifestation = BIG FLEET FIGHTS or in Alliance Warfare or in Sovereignty Warfare, and that is 50% or more of EVE Online game experience.

TIDI is not the cure, TIDI is the disease, and with TIDI ,
EVE is not anymore a MMO game but a SMO small multiplayer online game.
Iain Cariaba
#2 - 2014-11-07 17:39:34 UTC
TIDI will not kill EvE. Inability to format a forum post into something readable will be the real death of EvE.

Paragraphs man, use them.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#3 - 2014-11-07 17:43:39 UTC
There are changes happening which should help.

Go look for details on Dogma, and Brain in a Box.


(oh, and CCP's doing better than most. more MMO realms do 2-3k total. not all interacting at the one time.)

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Buma Firuu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#4 - 2014-11-07 17:59:38 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
There are changes happening which should help.

Go look for details on Dogma, and Brain in a Box.


(oh, and CCP's doing better than most. more MMO realms do 2-3k total. not all interacting at the one time.)


Can you enlight me Mr.CSM Member about Dogma and Brain in a Box?
Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility
#5 - 2014-11-07 19:33:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Benny Ohu
Buma Firuu wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
There are changes happening which should help.

Go look for details on Dogma, and Brain in a Box.


(oh, and CCP's doing better than most. more MMO realms do 2-3k total. not all interacting at the one time.)


Can you enlight me Mr.CSM Member about Dogma and Brain in a Box?

there's big changes to do with how the eve servers communicate with each other and the client

the goal is to reduce the amount of data they have to keep sharing. the target data for brain-in-a-box project is character information, which apparently gets sent around more than it needs to and contributes to lag a lot. it's not latency though it just makes really big queues of data for the servers to crunch through?

dogma is the name of some eve server data handling thingo

also. fights with tidi are far better than 'fights' before tidi
DaReaper
Net 7
Cannon.Fodder
#6 - 2014-11-07 21:22:01 UTC
I don;t think you understand what tidi is or what the actual issue is.

TiDi is the band aid for the servers issues. without tidi large fleet fights are unplayable. No i don;t mean laggy, i mean unplayable, black screens disconnects, hours of black loading. unplayable. TiDi is the remedy for that.

The issue is, eve was build in the age of single core more ghz processors. When the world changed to more cores, eve lagged behind. Some of the old systems don;t scale well for multi core.

This is what a lot of little changes actually do have big impact. Changing some code pieces to scale helps alleviate the pressure that activated tidi.

But there is a lot of projects going on behind the scenes that you will never notice but will improve a lot of stuff. Dogma is in essence the program that deals with ships bonus and interaction (i think) Brain in a box deals with character skills and attributes esp as they go to the ships. These two items being fixed will make a huge difference.

In essence, ccp is working on fixing TiDi.. you just won;t notice it.

OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!

Eve For life.

Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#7 - 2014-11-07 22:35:27 UTC
Right now, session changes are expensive, time wise.

Watch a fleet taking multiple jumps, and you'll find it causing systems to go into TiDi.

BiaB takes the work that happens at session change, and caches it (basically. It's more complex than that, but it's a good approximation)

The dogma rewrite is something which is required to make that work.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=diGYlJNpPEo may be of interest.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Zappity
Exit-Strategy
Unchained Alliance
#8 - 2014-11-07 23:42:50 UTC
Is there an ETA on the dogma rewrite? This is also required to bring links on grid I think.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.

Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#9 - 2014-11-07 23:47:48 UTC
Zappity wrote:
Is there an ETA on the dogma rewrite? This is also required to bring links on grid I think.



Ongoing, unfortunately.

It's a pretty major rewrite, and because it touches so many things, they have to keep integrating other changes into it.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Zappity
Exit-Strategy
Unchained Alliance
#10 - 2014-11-07 23:50:57 UTC
Thanks

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.

DaReaper
Net 7
Cannon.Fodder
#11 - 2014-11-08 15:00:48 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Zappity wrote:
Is there an ETA on the dogma rewrite? This is also required to bring links on grid I think.



Ongoing, unfortunately.

It's a pretty major rewrite, and because it touches so many things, they have to keep integrating other changes into it.



there is a thread in GD about the Biab rewrite, it has a lot of information from one of the devs working on it. I can say i do not envy his job.

OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!

Eve For life.

Buma Firuu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#12 - 2014-11-09 08:06:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Buma Firuu
DaReaper wrote:
I don;t think you understand what tidi is or what the actual issue is.

TiDi is the band aid for the servers issues. without tidi large fleet fights are unplayable. No i don;t mean laggy, i mean unplayable, black screens disconnects, hours of black loading. unplayable. TiDi is the remedy for that.

The issue is, eve was build in the age of single core more ghz processors. When the world changed to more cores, eve lagged behind. Some of the old systems don;t scale well for multi core.

This is what a lot of little changes actually do have big impact. Changing some code pieces to scale helps alleviate the pressure that activated tidi.

But there is a lot of projects going on behind the scenes that you will never notice but will improve a lot of stuff. Dogma is in essence the program that deals with ships bonus and interaction (i think) Brain in a box deals with character skills and attributes esp as they go to the ships. These two items being fixed will make a huge difference.

In essence, ccp is working on fixing TiDi.. you just won;t notice it.


I do know and understand what TiDi is.

What I don't accept is TiDi itself, flagged as a savior or hero to lag and big fleet fight issues.

I don't accept a service (TiDi) with zero or negative quality , speaking of game experience.

It would be more acceptable to limit the number of pilots in systems, as many as client/server communication can really handle in a fight situation , and so have a good quality fight and game experience, than offer big false pilot numbers in
big fake fights with very very slow motion.

My point here is that the quality of game experience must not be traded off with big fake fights.

If before TiDi pilots was offered only black screen, now after TiDi I was offered a colorful screen with the grid not being loaded completely, and the ships being blaped before any enemy ship was loaded in the grid.
Oh this is for sure a better situation than a black screen!!!

Common guys, if client/server can handle only 400 pilots fights in system without TiDi , but with good quality, then limit it to 400, if it is 200 so be it. This I can accept.

Technology nowadays have limitations, I understand this, and I can not ask CCP to achieve or offer something that is beyond tech capabilities, but don't offer a service (big fleet fights) that you can not deliver (with good quality).
admiral root
Red Galaxy
#13 - 2014-11-09 15:53:34 UTC  |  Edited by: admiral root
Buma Firuu wrote:
What I don't accept is TiDi itself, flagged as a savior or hero to lag and big fleet fight issues.


I've only ever seen if referred to as an interim solution - in which dev post did you see it called any different? From what I've heard of the pre-time dilation period, it was a roll of the dice as to whether you got into the fight or just got a black screen until you woke up in the clone bay. Having fought in time dilation on a fair few occasions, it's way better than that, though obviously not ideal.

Edit: Limiting players like you suggest would be pretty dumb. Attacker manages to get 250 - 300 guys into your system and all you can do at that point is watch everything burn. I believe people used to do this before we had time dilation, though I'm sure someone who was there will correct me if I'm wrong.

No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff

Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility
#14 - 2014-11-10 13:15:31 UTC
Buma Firuu wrote:
It would be more acceptable to limit the number of pilots in systems, as many as client/server communication can really handle in a fight situation , and so have a good quality fight and game experience, than offer big false pilot numbers in
big fake fights with very very slow motion.

...

Common guys, if client/server can handle only 400 pilots fights in system without TiDi , but with good quality, then limit it to 400, if it is 200 so be it. This I can accept.

this'd make winning timers as easy as 'pack four hundred pilots into the system before the other team then go play something else'

admiral that's what i've heard of pre-tidi fights, too, from csm 6 minutes iirc
Buma Firuu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#15 - 2014-11-11 10:55:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Buma Firuu
Dumb is your viewpoint admiral root.

Who said that the limit number in system would follow the actual rule First Arrived (jump request) First Served ?

If the number that a system can handle is 400 then it can be limited the number allowed for the defense and attack fleets.

For example the alliance holding the sov of the system can be allowed to login 200 pilots to defend the system, and the attack force can be limited to login 200 pilots. How can be done this? With if-else statements ;).

1.Are you an alliance pilot holding the sov of the system X ?

-> if yes then go to 2

-> if no then go to 3

2.Is the number of alliance (sov holder) pilots in system < 200 ?

-> if yes then welcome to the party; you may jump to system X

-> if no then sorry all seats are taken; you may not jump to X system

3. Is the number of non alliance (sov holder) pilots in system < 200 ?

-> if yes then welcome to the party; you may jump to X system

-> if no then sorry all seats are taken; you may not jump to system X

Similar rules can be applied to logged off pilots in system X

This will require to limit the fleet numbers too.


The limitation with equal number of pilots allowed for defense/attack can be done and well managed.

Then the fight will not depend on how many ships you can bring, but what ships and who you will bring (skills and fc), or how well you manage attack / defense .

There will be room for all the pilots of the alliance to join the fight, but not in one system but in several systems, so an alliance can organize a constellation invading/defense operation or in a whole region at once. Each fight will be enjoyed (without TiDi) and depend only on the skills and decisions (ship fit selection) of the pilots participating in each fight.

There are a thousand ways to achieve a goal, IF YOU WANT TO, but dumb pilots can't see this.
admiral root
Red Galaxy
#16 - 2014-11-11 13:12:03 UTC
So the attacker will flood the system with neutral alts in addition to their assault fleet. Yup, I'm definitely the dumb one here.

No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff

Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#17 - 2014-11-11 13:30:25 UTC
It's not a new idea. Which is why people immediately discount it, as they've already pointed out all the problems which can occur. No-one's had a way of doing it which isn't hideously open to being gamed.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Buma Firuu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#18 - 2014-11-11 13:37:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Buma Firuu
admiral root wrote:
So the attacker will flood the system with neutral alts in addition to their assault fleet. Yup, I'm definitely the dumb one here.


Yes, you are Big smile

Let me explain again. In an imaginary limit number of 400 pilots per system,
200 seats are reserved to the alliance holding the system (coalition mechanics fucks off this way).

The other half 200 are free for who ever wants to attack that system.

Perhaps you wanted to say that the sov holder would fill the system with 200 alts they control and this way
don't give the chance of the real attack force to be present in that system. This would be a weak point.

But guys I'm not giving or pretending to have the solution, I'm just saying that if devs think seriously (without unlimited numbers in mind) can find an acceptable solution without giving up on quality , and excluding TiDi.

If this limitation on the system is not good , what about on a limit number of ships in a location (grid speaking) in system.

The idea is based on divide and conquer the problem (big number of pilots in a fight).
admiral root
Red Galaxy
#19 - 2014-11-11 13:44:37 UTC
Buma Firuu wrote:
Perhaps you wanted to say that the sov holder would fill the system with 200 alts they control and this way
don't give the chance of the real attack force to be present in that system. This would be a weak point.


No, I didn't realise your "idea" was intentionally and ridiculously biased in favour of the defender.

No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff

Buma Firuu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#20 - 2014-11-11 15:30:11 UTC
admiral root wrote:
Buma Firuu wrote:
Perhaps you wanted to say that the sov holder would fill the system with 200 alts they control and this way
don't give the chance of the real attack force to be present in that system. This would be a weak point.


No, I didn't realise your "idea" was intentionally and ridiculously biased in favour of the defender.



In fact my idea is intentionally and from many viewpoints ridiculously against ,TiDi and BIG FAKE FIGHTS.

If you are comfortable with TiDi and EVE as it is now , that doesn't mean that everyone else should be.

I just stated at the beginning that I can not play Eve Online (alliance and sovereignty warfare)
as it is now (with all the issues of lag and TiDi and the ridiculous big "epic" fake fights) AND have fun.

One thing is for sure if one plays in big fights with TiDi will NOT have fun.

Do you remember why are you here in EVE Universe admiral? I presume to have fun rather then distress Shocked

Be sincere to yourself. How much fun do you have when you play EVE under TiDi?

This is what I'm talking about here.

If it's not fun anymore to play a game, then you can imagine what will happen to that game.

I'm sorry but I will not bias in favor of TiDi and fake epic experiences in big fights, cause they are not
as they say they are.
They are not fun, and other pilots must know the truth, or will be disappointed, and disappointment is not fun.
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