These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Test Server Feedback

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

UI Modernization preview - Feedback and issues

First post First post
Author
Adrie Atticus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#421 - 2014-11-30 16:25:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Adrie Atticus
Theon Severasse wrote:

Since I've backed up my argument with what came up with my search, maybe you could return the favour CCP and show us the scientific paper that you apparently have access to that shows that it has been "scientifically proven" that colourless icons are easier to recognise?


After spending 3 hours going through google and contacting one of my old professors (exactly his field) I have not been able to find a respectable study to back up the notion of "Removing all colour from context which only includes different and detailed shapes improves the time it takes for humans to find the correct shape". There were about 7 studies with a total of 9 citations between them saying this but they're not either current (1970's says "hi") or were never cited and cannot be considered valid. Three of these studies were limited to 8 shapes or less.

I have to join you on this request on CCP to quote the study. After all, quoting the content of a study and not quoting the study itself is bad form and will get you laughed at.
Bagrat Skalski
Koinuun Kotei
#422 - 2014-11-30 17:44:54 UTC
They apparently consulted it with the same professor who advised them with the game physics.
Adrian Dixon
Arbitrary Spaceship Destruction
-affliction-
#423 - 2014-12-01 00:34:19 UTC
Personally I really like the new icons, they are easy to interpret. I am finding it really hard going back to TQ now that I have experienced the latest Singularity version. The only thing that stands out for me is there should needs more options for the window opacity/blur on off.

The smaller station services icons are great.
helana Tsero
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#424 - 2014-12-01 05:01:53 UTC  |  Edited by: helana Tsero
Looks like the devs are actually listening somewhat. Big smile

- The blink for new conversation in coms windows has been toned down. thumbs up !

- the tabs in the black theme now more subdued which is great. however the selected tab word (font) is still overly bright especially for people who have high contrast monitors. Its actually easier to see something when the font is not highlighted (had glow added)

- removal of the extra highlighting for the selected column in the overview is also cool. thumbs up.

Still need

- tranparency slider to effect everything including tabs.
- RGB sliders back
- option to disable the window blur via a toggle per window

I think the font on the com windows are a little unclear on 90% scale.

"...ppl need to get out of caves and they will see something new.... thats where eve is placed... not in cave."  | zoonr-Korsairs |

Meanwhile Citadel release issues: "tried to bug report this and the bug report is bugged as well" | Rafeau |

Quintessen
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#425 - 2014-12-01 15:58:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Quintessen
Adrie Atticus wrote:
Theon Severasse wrote:

Since I've backed up my argument with what came up with my search, maybe you could return the favour CCP and show us the scientific paper that you apparently have access to that shows that it has been "scientifically proven" that colourless icons are easier to recognise?


After spending 3 hours going through google and contacting one of my old professors (exactly his field) I have not been able to find a respectable study to back up the notion of "Removing all colour from context which only includes different and detailed shapes improves the time it takes for humans to find the correct shape". There were about 7 studies with a total of 9 citations between them saying this but they're not either current (1970's says "hi") or were never cited and cannot be considered valid. Three of these studies were limited to 8 shapes or less.

I have to join you on this request on CCP to quote the study. After all, quoting the content of a study and not quoting the study itself is bad form and will get you laughed at.


A lot of the core HCI work that's been done was originally done in the '70s. This is one field where the age of the work doesn't necessarily invalidate it. Actually, that's true in general. Remember that humans haven't changed much. So a human's ability to distinguish between shapes and how color influences that would not have changed since the '70s. Our eyes and brains haven't changed since then, why should the result have?

New HCI material that covers interactions that weren't possible in the '70s wouldn't be valid and there wasn't a lot on virtual reality then. Also touch screens weren't as refined, but the core concepts are there. Ubiquity of touch screens give us a lot more data than we used to have so some conclusions have changed, but all the core work has been done.

The Mac usability guidelines that Apple still uses today are almost unchanged from when Jeff Raskin originally wrote them back in the '70's and '80s.

And all that said, iconography predates all of that. So, no, your older studies are still valid.
Adrie Atticus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#426 - 2014-12-01 17:26:50 UTC
Quintessen wrote:
Adrie Atticus wrote:
Theon Severasse wrote:

Since I've backed up my argument with what came up with my search, maybe you could return the favour CCP and show us the scientific paper that you apparently have access to that shows that it has been "scientifically proven" that colourless icons are easier to recognise?


After spending 3 hours going through google and contacting one of my old professors (exactly his field) I have not been able to find a respectable study to back up the notion of "Removing all colour from context which only includes different and detailed shapes improves the time it takes for humans to find the correct shape". There were about 7 studies with a total of 9 citations between them saying this but they're not either current (1970's says "hi") or were never cited and cannot be considered valid. Three of these studies were limited to 8 shapes or less.

I have to join you on this request on CCP to quote the study. After all, quoting the content of a study and not quoting the study itself is bad form and will get you laughed at.


A lot of the core HCI work that's been done was originally done in the '70s. This is one field where the age of the work doesn't necessarily invalidate it. Actually that's true in general. Remember that humans haven't changed much so a human's ability to distinguish between shapes and how color influences that would not have changed since the '70s. Our eyes and brains haven't changed since then, why should the result have?

New HCI material that covers interactions that weren't possible in the '70s would be valid and there wasn't a lot on virtual reality then. Also touch screens weren't as refined, but the core concept is there. Ubiquity of touch screens gives us a lot more data than we used to have so some conclusions have changed, but all the core work has been done.

The Mac usability guidelines that Apple still uses today are almost unchanged from when Jeff Raskin originally wrote them back in the '70's and '80s.

And all that said, iconography predates all of that. So, no, your older studies are still valid.


I tried to make a point over how studies which have citations in the tens or hundreds over this subject confirming CCP's statement is hard to find, I guess I went over board with the prodding.

You don't happen to have one at hand?
Lil' Brudder Too
Pistols for Pandas
#427 - 2014-12-01 19:22:32 UTC
Sooo, CCP Arrow said there would be Dev responses to feedback this weekend....

Unless it was in some unrelated thread in the '3rd party developer' subforum like the invention changes "response"....

CCP's 'embeded QA', start doing your flippin job. I can understand you are busy, but there is simply no good reason to NOT RESPOND for this long (almost 4 weeks) to the very feedback thread you created whilst begging for feedback.

Yes some stuff seems to have been addressed in recent patches, but A LOT of it still remains untouched...with less than a week before it is supposed to be pushed out. IMHO it needs a fair bit of love before its ready for the general population.
Nolan Kotulan
Nova Tabula Rasa
#428 - 2014-12-01 22:26:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Nolan Kotulan
Adrie Atticus wrote:
Quintessen wrote:
Adrie Atticus wrote:
Theon Severasse wrote:

Since I've backed up my argument with what came up with my search, maybe you could return the favour CCP and show us the scientific paper that you apparently have access to that shows that it has been "scientifically proven" that colourless icons are easier to recognise?


After spending 3 hours going through google and contacting one of my old professors (exactly his field) I have not been able to find a respectable study to back up the notion of "Removing all colour from context which only includes different and detailed shapes improves the time it takes for humans to find the correct shape". There were about 7 studies with a total of 9 citations between them saying this but they're not either current (1970's says "hi") or were never cited and cannot be considered valid. Three of these studies were limited to 8 shapes or less.

I have to join you on this request on CCP to quote the study. After all, quoting the content of a study and not quoting the study itself is bad form and will get you laughed at.


A lot of the core HCI work that's been done was originally done in the '70s. This is one field where the age of the work doesn't necessarily invalidate it. Actually that's true in general. Remember that humans haven't changed much so a human's ability to distinguish between shapes and how color influences that would not have changed since the '70s. Our eyes and brains haven't changed since then, why should the result have?

New HCI material that covers interactions that weren't possible in the '70s would be valid and there wasn't a lot on virtual reality then. Also touch screens weren't as refined, but the core concept is there. Ubiquity of touch screens gives us a lot more data than we used to have so some conclusions have changed, but all the core work has been done.

The Mac usability guidelines that Apple still uses today are almost unchanged from when Jeff Raskin originally wrote them back in the '70's and '80s.

And all that said, iconography predates all of that. So, no, your older studies are still valid.


I tried to make a point over how studies which have citations in the tens or hundreds over this subject confirming CCP's statement is hard to find, I guess I went over board with the prodding.

You don't happen to have one at hand?


Do you know what typography and pictography are and why they are like they are (shapes)?

Study or read about writing history, print industry, font designers, typography and art history in general and you'll stop asking for "recent" studies by yourself...

Brains work almost in the same manner as they did centuries ago...

Colors can help if well used in some cases (road signs and others), but well designed pictograms (icons) generally do the job by themselves...
Shapes are the base...

I'm not against eventually adding optional (!) colors to the Neocom (I even suggested it before I saw the last updated icons which are finally very well designed), but stop asking CCP to justify themself like if they were idiots and liers. Period.

You think colored icons in the Neocom are better because you are used to it, nothing else.

Edit
And here is your simple answer (did you never try this test?)...
Say the real colour names, not the written ones...

Good luck! ;-)

Per aspera ad astra

Quintessen
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#429 - 2014-12-01 22:56:58 UTC
Adrie Atticus wrote:
I tried to make a point over how studies which have citations in the tens or hundreds over this subject confirming CCP's statement is hard to find, I guess I went over board with the prodding.

You don't happen to have one at hand?


A lot of these studies are behind journal paywalls, but you might be able to find them at your local college library. I'm no longer a student so most of my knowledge now is gained from reading summations of various material. I, however, can point people to some authors of usability works in general.

Don Norman
Jakob Nielsen
Bruce "Tog" Tognazzini
Jeff Raskin
Jared Spool
Edward Tufte
Steve Krug

I'm sure there are younger people now, but these are who I learned in school and what they've written mostly still applies. Many of their books still sit on my shelves because of a firm understanding that they are still relevant -- much more so than my books on specific technologies.
Quintessen
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#430 - 2014-12-01 23:05:34 UTC
Nolan Kotulan wrote:

Edit
And here is your simple answer (did you never try this test?)...
Say the real colour names, not the written ones...

Good luck! ;-)


Not quite the same thing. A similar principle applies though. The brain just doesn't differentiate well on color. It's not designed to and it doesn't help it survive much. You don't need great color vision to survive. Rough color vision will work so the brain doesn't create really specialized structures to remember fine color detail. If I showed everyone a color for a few minutes, hid it and showed those same people that color again with four similar colors a few hours later, it's a low probability that the respondents would do better than random chance.

However the same isn't true for shapes. Simple shapes are strongly encoded in our memories. The evolution for written language also gives us strong memory for glyphs.
Nolan Kotulan
Nova Tabula Rasa
#431 - 2014-12-01 23:08:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Nolan Kotulan
Quintessen wrote:
Nolan Kotulan wrote:

Edit
And here is your simple answer (did you never try this test?)...
Say the real colour names, not the written ones...

Good luck! ;-)


Not quite the same thing. A similar principle applies though. The brain just doesn't differentiate well on color. It's not designed to and it doesn't help it survive much. You don't need great color vision to survive. Rough color vision will work so the brain doesn't create really specialized structures to remember fine color detail. If I showed everyone a color for a few minutes, hid it and showed those same people that color again with four similar colors a few hours later, it's a low probability that the respondents would do better than random chance.

However the same isn't true for shapes. Simple shapes are strongly encoded in our memories. The evolution for written language also gives us strong memory for glyphs.


Nothing else to add! :)

Per aspera ad astra

Nolan Kotulan
Nova Tabula Rasa
#432 - 2014-12-01 23:10:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Nolan Kotulan
Deleted

Per aspera ad astra

Theon Severasse
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#433 - 2014-12-02 01:21:56 UTC
OK.


But can you find anything that shows that a blury UI is good?
Brigadine Ferathine
Presumed Dead Enterprises
Against ALL Authorities.
#434 - 2014-12-02 09:04:40 UTC
I Like it. 2 things. Does it scale to 300% for 4k resolutions and will it allow me to not end up with windows everywhere for normal operation? In particular the current overview and chat windows make it difficult to fit everything you need.
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#435 - 2014-12-02 09:39:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Rain6637
hey gents

when I go to move fleet members around, the initial click and drag selects everyone in squad. I don't recall it acting that way before. any chance we could eliminate this double click requirement to select individual fleet members?



you fixed it? that was fast
prolix travail
Blue Mountain Trails
#436 - 2014-12-02 15:03:56 UTC  |  Edited by: prolix travail
The new ui updates you made yesterday/today? are most welcome! pinned windows not being totally clear is great, ability to turn off blur even better. Customization is king!

edit: also the icons are looking much better :)

personally directional scanner icon might be easier to identify f it was a radar screen looking thing but that just a personal feeling.
Saberlily Whyteshadow
Perkone
Caldari State
#437 - 2014-12-02 15:47:07 UTC
YESSss!!

Thank You for listening and enabling on/off feature for window blur effects.. Cool

Cynthia Aishai
Aishai Industry Inc
#438 - 2014-12-02 16:27:09 UTC
Thank you, CCP, for adding the 'Enable window blur' option!!

Big smileBig smileBig smileBig smileBig smileBig smileBig smile
SpaceSaft
Almost Dangerous
Wolves Amongst Strangers
#439 - 2014-12-02 17:04:56 UTC
I'm still disappointed by the lack of color choices and therefore to me this is still a step back.
Cajun Style
Shattered Planet
#440 - 2014-12-02 17:54:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Cajun Style
The new theme options that you released today are vastly inferior to the options we had on SiSi before. The new ORE theme is hideous, for example, the new amarr theme is a step back and I might be wrong but the Gallente theme was changed and looks far worse now... it was unobtrusive and nice before but now it is far too green to actually play with all the time. Looks like I'm sticking to black on patch day after all, because if the UI options are garish then why would we opt to permanently set the UI to looking that way? It will clash with art assets, etc.

However, with complaints about the aesthetic sense of the people designing the color schemes put behind us, the UI updates themselves are great, and it's nice to see some feedback listened to in regards to the window blur and transparency slider.

Edit: The next day the old themes were brought back in addition to the newer themes, making the list of options quite comprehensive. I have no complaints.