Science & Industry

I build capital ships in null sec in relatively high volumes (30-40 per month). This has given me some insight into the barriers to having a more self-contained null sec, which seems to be what CCP wants.

ISSUE

The root problem from my point of view is how to get low-end minerals for the construction (Tritanium and Pyerite). If you look at all of New Eden, I would guess that 99% of these minerals are mined in empire space. It thereby follows that most industry in null sec has to import these minerals (using jump freighters). This additional cost makes it hard to compete with imported finished goods. It also means that miners in null sec typically end up producing for export, since there is complete disconnect between their yield and the need of the producers. A producer will rather include Megacyte, Zydrine and Isogen on his freighter + jump freighter route from Jita than to try to move these minerals from another system close to his nullsec station.

SOLUTION - PART I

I would propose that the asteroids in null were reworked, so that their combined yield would roughly correspond to the mix needed by producers (on average). This would make it interesting for miners and producers in null sec to hook up - either via supply arrangements or via local markets. I think this would be a great step towards a self-contained null, with less dependence on constant jump freight.

However, there is a caveat. While in high sec (and many adjacent systems) you can simply move stuff around at a low cost using a freighter, in null sec it is more difficult. In fact, even if the miners provide your ore in the next system, it will be just as simple to jump ore in from empire! The only safe way to move hundreds of thousands of m3 in null sec is to jump freight, even if you are only one gate away. That brings me to

SOLUTION - PART II

I would additionally propose that every null sec station gets a compression service. This would make moving the high volume minerals within null sec simpler. Many producers will be able to move their minerals in blockade runners, which will be a revolution.

The two above items would not solve everything. For instance, as a cap builder I use hundreds of thousands of m3 of compressed ore in a go, and I can't imagine moving that in a blockade runner. But maybe my alliance would set up a corp to do the blockade running. If I could buy relevant compressed ore locally, I would gladly pay dudes to move my ore in that way.

Would love to hear y'all's views on this.

The problem is not in the amounts of minerals in Ore in null, they are there. It's just not practical to mine them. It's the same with High-Sec Ores and it's all tied to the extremely tight margins system in EVE. There are a number of Ores that fit in the 'one size fits all' groups you want. They don't meet the ISK an hr ratio to be mined though.

The trouble in Null is that even though you can get the hull made, you need to fit the ship and nobody in Null wants to focus on the fittings Industrial. When you look to Capitals, everyone knows and has said many times that you need sub cap fleets to support capitals. Can your local industrial base support fleet doctrines across the board or do you simply say "It's easier" to import? When in truth it's not an option, you simply don't have the Industrial base to do it.

I didn't say it was. Please reread my OP.

Nothing stopping you from putting up a Compression Array in a POS like the rest of us have to do. Nothing stopping you from moving said compressed ores in a DST or BR, you don't have to JF it.

Or is the root problem that high-sec is much more compatible with the nature of the average semi-afk miner?

And read my entire reply.

Even in this thread, which comes closer to most, I haven't actually seen confirmation of an assumption I have to make (due to not having explored lots of Null and checked the 'roids) - that ALL ores are also available in Null.

Based upon that assumption, however, the answer is simple (to me at least and I am an EVE businessman, but with limited time and no wish to play lots of alts):

- Pay your miners

Based upon my current prices in dear old High Sec:

- Gneiss (most valuable ore excl Mercoxit)) - ~240isk/m3

- Veldspar - ~170isk/m3

So, just increase your price for Veldspar to just exceed that for Gneiss (whatever your values are, and they should be lower in Null). Only then will miners have a reason.

Take all the hassle from the miners (but perhaps let them do the compression for you); you buy the compressed ore locally and take all the effort away from them of making isk themselves.

It's been a while since I traded out in Null (back before Capitals existed and out ISS Marginis way), but I expect that, whilst some modules (and Ammo) may make sense to build in Null, it still may make sense to haul most (in bulk and made much easier with doctrines). But if you build the ships out there and supply the modules, then I suspect it could be done that way.

But if you want certain ores, then you pay for them. Pay enough and they will be mined.

I've done null mining and Null people know how to do it. Zerg mine. It takes half an hour to fill a Mackinaw and you can get 50 of them to mine for an hour or force one poor shmuck to do it for 50 hours. Either way you need to dedicate many, many hours of sitting there doing absolutely nothing to make ships and make stuff and most people simply don't want to use their game time doing that. 50:1 or 1:50 won't get 50 ships made any faster.

tl:dr Mining is boring.

We can't fix it. It was designed to be boring.

I have no particular disagreement with that, but the OP seemed to imply (and hence my response) that he had miners, but that they mined for their own profit and not his. The answer is to therefore pay them to mine what he wants.




If this is true - and indeed we assume that the 'vision' is for Null Sec to be more self sufficient - then it simply supports a contention I have held for some time (and believe it should have been an alternate to the Jump Fatigue changes), then it only proves that logistics are too easy (too overly simplified) and/or the real possibility that the actual 'costs' of bringing stuff from High Sec are not factored in.

'Pay miners' can also be expressed another way and, given it's EVE/a game with a high desire for combat, then you need to turn the RL 'Farmers employ Soldiers' around - and require people who want to mine to pay (as renters) in Ore and not Isk. Again, however, if the logistics are (have been) made too easy, then this still won't factor correctly.

For my part, if 'proper' logistics were to be represented in game then I could think of no easier mechanic to introduce than 'fuel'. Not necessarily synonymous with Jump Fuel/Isotopes - but fuel for every single ship.

You could add 'food', 'maintenance', etc, but 'fuel would do. Perhaps 'mined' from the Sun, just like in dear old Elite.

And if the Alliances actually want to be self-sufficient, then that's what they'll have to do. The alliances that do would then deserve to be the most effective.

That's what CCP seem to want to do, but they'll need to modify the sandbox boundaries to do so.