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Make battleships and battlecruisers worth the warp! 2.0

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Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#381 - 2014-12-16 15:46:30 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Any buff to the MJD is a direct buff to the battleships sicne it is usable only on them. THe MJD is the sole real advantage a battleship fleet has over HACS and t3. But hat advantage can be used ONCE or TWICE per fight.

Allowing the battleships to use mroe their main advantage would be a long way to create a REASON to use battleship and no one could accuse of Power creep.


For this to work, people have to get into their head the fact that BS would still be a doctrine fielded with support since you won't hold ships on grid from 100km away and that mean getting used to warping with battleship warp speed in mind. Mixing hull size mean your FC has to take into account warp speed. We do AF with cruiser logi support and it works wonder as long as we don't get too many 120 AU warp to the target a scout found. People would have to get used to their main guns will arrive a few seconds alter while right now, they are used to everybody in their cruiser gang warping at the same speed or really close.

BS will never really be a good fleet doctrine when used alone or only with logi support. People really need to get that and stop trying to make battleship into a single ship doctrine machine.

It can't work on it's own and it's intended but force multiplier can make them shine if you are willing to play around their difference.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#382 - 2014-12-16 15:54:22 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Any buff to the MJD is a direct buff to the battleships sicne it is usable only on them. THe MJD is the sole real advantage a battleship fleet has over HACS and t3. But hat advantage can be used ONCE or TWICE per fight.

Allowing the battleships to use mroe their main advantage would be a long way to create a REASON to use battleship and no one could accuse of Power creep.


For this to work, people have to get into their head the fact that BS would still be a doctrine fielded with support since you won't hold ships on grid from 100km away and that mean getting used to warping with battleship warp speed in mind. Mixing hull size mean your FC has to take into account warp speed. We do AF with cruiser logi support and it works wonder as long as we don't get too many 120 AU warp to the target a scout found. People would have to get used to their main guns will arrive a few seconds alter while right now, they are used to everybody in their cruiser gang warping at the same speed or really close.

BS will never really be a good fleet doctrine when used alone or only with logi support. People really need to get that and stop trying to make battleship into a single ship doctrine machine.

It can't work on it's own and it's intended but force multiplier can make them shine if you are willing to play around their difference.



Agreed. But as it is now, it is not worth the cost of complexify the FC work on a more diverse fleet just for once per battle to hop 100 km.. wiii.

Brign the carrot closer...

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#383 - 2014-12-16 16:03:31 UTC
So, are we kinda back to early days of EVE when there was no tracking and the only reason not to fly BS was the fact that they required an expenditure economy couldn't sustain on massive scales back then?

Or maybe time machine isn't potent enough and we're just back to the age of tracking titans, just with BS this time?

I don't see how BS inability to roflstomp anything that comes their way is the problem of the class. It has more to do that smaller ships perform almost as good at what is supposedly a "BS thing" (tank + raw DPS that requires support to be applied), but also have mobility on top of that.

Future of T3 cruisers - multi-tool they aspired to be instead of sledgehammer they have become
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#384 - 2014-12-16 16:04:34 UTC
James Baboli wrote:
...

In the current version, the frigate is almost invulnerable to a battleship not specifically designed to take out frigate, unless it has drones, and even then many frigates are capable of killing the drones from non-drone bonused battleships without taking massive damage.

See the differances?

Yes, why should a ship taking months of training be unable to reliably threaten a ship taking mere weeks of training.

I see your point now, you want the skills and requirements to fly a BS to only have value under specific circumstances, which do not include use against frigates without compromising the fit except against frigates.

You must forgive me if I don't agree with this view. Or not, as your comment below implies.

James Baboli wrote:
By the way, feel free to post your off the wall ideas which introduce new mechanics in your own thread. They are not particularly useful here and are off topic and will reported as such from now on.

You are introducing new mechanics into a thread named
Make battleships and battlecruisers worth the warp

I consider my contributions worthwhile, in that maybe you might do something more original than simply remake the BS into the 2015 version of the ship class, as it existed in 2005.
You are not giving them anything they never had in the past.
You are trying to give back what the devs removed, through changes to them and others.

I don't think you are changing the ship, you are trying to simply update it.

I do think that the game is better than this.

Not supported, -1

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#385 - 2014-12-16 16:21:58 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
James Baboli wrote:
...

In the current version, the frigate is almost invulnerable to a battleship not specifically designed to take out frigate, unless it has drones, and even then many frigates are capable of killing the drones from non-drone bonused battleships without taking massive damage.

See the differances?

Yes, why should a ship taking months of training be unable to reliably threaten a ship taking mere weeks of training.

I see your point now, you want the skills and requirements to fly a BS to only have value under specific circumstances, which do not include use against frigates without compromising the fit except against frigates.

You must forgive me if I don't agree with this view. Or not, as your comment below implies.

James Baboli wrote:
By the way, feel free to post your off the wall ideas which introduce new mechanics in your own thread. They are not particularly useful here and are off topic and will reported as such from now on.

You are introducing new mechanics into a thread named
Make battleships and battlecruisers worth the warp

I consider my contributions worthwhile, in that maybe you might do something more original than simply remake the BS into the 2015 version of the ship class, as it existed in 2005.
You are not giving them anything they never had in the past.
You are trying to give back what the devs removed, through changes to them and others.

I don't think you are changing the ship, you are trying to simply update it.

I do think that the game is better than this.

Not supported, -1


Probably takes more time to get in a HAC than a BS as you need a few skill to V before you can train HAC. Should HAC literally **** on every lesser sub cap because of training time?

Marauder should be the wtfpwnmobile because :training time:?
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#386 - 2014-12-16 16:28:00 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
James Baboli wrote:
...

In the current version, the frigate is almost invulnerable to a battleship not specifically designed to take out frigate, unless it has drones, and even then many frigates are capable of killing the drones from non-drone bonused battleships without taking massive damage.

See the differances?

Yes, why should a ship taking months of training be unable to reliably threaten a ship taking mere weeks of training.

I see your point now, you want the skills and requirements to fly a BS to only have value under specific circumstances, which do not include use against frigates without compromising the fit except against frigates.

You must forgive me if I don't agree with this view. Or not, as your comment below implies.

James Baboli wrote:
By the way, feel free to post your off the wall ideas which introduce new mechanics in your own thread. They are not particularly useful here and are off topic and will reported as such from now on.

You are introducing new mechanics into a thread named
Make battleships and battlecruisers worth the warp

I consider my contributions worthwhile, in that maybe you might do something more original than simply remake the BS into the 2015 version of the ship class, as it existed in 2005.
You are not giving them anything they never had in the past.
You are trying to give back what the devs removed, through changes to them and others.

I don't think you are changing the ship, you are trying to simply update it.

I do think that the game is better than this.

Not supported, -1

Did you even read the OP?
Seriously. Go away.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#387 - 2014-12-16 17:36:03 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Probably takes more time to get in a HAC than a BS as you need a few skill to V before you can train HAC. Should HAC literally **** on every lesser sub cap because of training time?

Marauder should be the wtfpwnmobile because :training time:?

Comparing a ship model to a ship size class, is not a valid one.

A specialized ship, like the HAC or Marauder, is designed for a specific role, which excludes it from generalized considerations in such context.

Perhaps your question should be: Should cruisers dump on destroyers and frigates?
Should battleships dump on cruisers?

Are we fighting in one game, or three divided by size classes?
The ability to place weapons into a lower class than the hull does not change this dynamic. The weapons represent offensive abilities, while the hull is your defensive aspect.

The suggestion of fitting medium or small turrets is simply reduced to devoting the offense to a different size class, or splitting it between them.

I would point out, that the skills needed to train into a battleship INCLUDE
Frigate, to a minimum of level 3
Destroyer, to a minimum level of 3
Cruiser, to a minimum level of 3
Battlecruiser, to a minimum level of 3
Battleship, any level at or above 1

In addition, you must have these skills specific to the race in question, relevant to the racial aspect of the BS.

So, should the BS pilot be able to use the weapons, and know the operations, of each class smaller than they are?
They have paid the skill points to have the skills, after all is said and done.

Maybe the point could be made, that for every frigate or cruiser the BS devotes it's attention to, one less ship of equal or larger size than the target must be free from such threat.

Imagine that, the pilot of the the most skill intensive subcap class of ships, being able to fight those smaller classes effectively.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#388 - 2014-12-16 17:54:38 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Probably takes more time to get in a HAC than a BS as you need a few skill to V before you can train HAC. Should HAC literally **** on every lesser sub cap because of training time?

Marauder should be the wtfpwnmobile because :training time:?

Comparing a ship model to a ship size class, is not a valid one.

A specialized ship, like the HAC or Marauder, is designed for a specific role, which excludes it from generalized considerations in such context.

Perhaps your question should be: Should cruisers dump on destroyers and frigates?
Should battleships dump on cruisers?

Are we fighting in one game, or three divided by size classes?
The ability to place weapons into a lower class than the hull does not change this dynamic. The weapons represent offensive abilities, while the hull is your defensive aspect.

The suggestion of fitting medium or small turrets is simply reduced to devoting the offense to a different size class, or splitting it between them.

I would point out, that the skills needed to train into a battleship INCLUDE
Frigate, to a minimum of level 3
Destroyer, to a minimum level of 3
Cruiser, to a minimum level of 3
Battlecruiser, to a minimum level of 3
Battleship, any level at or above 1

In addition, you must have these skills specific to the race in question, relevant to the racial aspect of the BS.

So, should the BS pilot be able to use the weapons, and know the operations, of each class smaller than they are?
They have paid the skill points to have the skills, after all is said and done.

Maybe the point could be made, that for every frigate or cruiser the BS devotes it's attention to, one less ship of equal or larger size than the target must be free from such threat.

Imagine that, the pilot of the the most skill intensive subcap class of ships, being able to fight those smaller classes effectively.


If the pilot of the battleship can effectively fight small class ship, they will all fly battleship because there is no point to anything smaller. That is the problem with your suggestion. Getting in a hull one size bigger is not supposed to be a direct upgrade. You are supposed to trade something for something else. If the bigger one can deal with everything, it means the lesser one become borderline useless and only usefull during a "leveling" period.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#389 - 2014-12-16 18:22:04 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
If the pilot of the battleship can effectively fight small class ship, they will all fly battleship because there is no point to anything smaller. That is the problem with your suggestion. Getting in a hull one size bigger is not supposed to be a direct upgrade. You are supposed to trade something for something else. If the bigger one can deal with everything, it means the lesser one become borderline useless and only usefull during a "leveling" period.

Why would you make such an oversimplified conclusion?

The battleship is not going on any roams where speed is a primary concern.
We have demonstrated that speed is highly valued, in that the more time an opposing force has time to prepare, the fewer options are available to those performing the roam.
We have also effectively demonstrated, that players are unwilling to sit in ships guarding anything short of a gate camp, as it is considered too dull as a play dynamic.

These three details, when given proper consideration, show that the BS class represents a focused threat. For assaults where mobility is important, this threat is less likely to show up until after the fact, based on distance needed to travel.

Sure, once they arrive, they should have every right to be a significant presence.

The idea that players can invest wildly different amounts of time and effort to train into their respective ships, but have comparable results, devalues the additional effort made by the player who made it.

And don't downplay frigates and cruisers, they have the ability to spend enough time on the field, to the point where many conflicts are resolved by the time the BS class vessels show up.

It's not that the BS is overpowered, in my recent suggestion, but rather that it is worth the wait, if the battle is not yet resolved.
Why undock in anything so slow, if your impact in the fight is no more than the other ships already present?

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#390 - 2014-12-16 19:20:00 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
If the pilot of the battleship can effectively fight small class ship, they will all fly battleship because there is no point to anything smaller. That is the problem with your suggestion. Getting in a hull one size bigger is not supposed to be a direct upgrade. You are supposed to trade something for something else. If the bigger one can deal with everything, it means the lesser one become borderline useless and only usefull during a "leveling" period.

Why would you make such an oversimplified conclusion?

The battleship is not going on any roams where speed is a primary concern.
We have demonstrated that speed is highly valued, in that the more time an opposing force has time to prepare, the fewer options are available to those performing the roam.

Speed is a concern only if you can actually make a difference when you arrive. If you are facing opposition with 2-3x the firepower and tank per pilot, and they can swap 50-60% of their DPS to apply it well to your itty bitty ship, why would you bother undocking something that will come apart like a paper plane hit with a GAU-8?


Quote:

It's not that the BS is overpowered, in my recent suggestion, but rather that it is worth the wait, if the battle is not yet resolved.
Why undock in anything so slow, if your impact in the fight is no more than the other ships already present?


It is overpowered. If you can't see why, grab your ears and pull until there is a popping noise, and your spine resumes a mostly straight configuration.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#391 - 2014-12-16 19:42:31 UTC
Selectively quoting me, in order to leave out details inconvenient to your argument, means you only argued against YOUR version of what I said.

I specified those three points for a reason, since they only form the meaningful logic together.

I have restored here the missing key point, which I think makes your rebuttal less meaningful.
James Baboli wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:

The battleship is not going on any roams where speed is a primary concern.
We have demonstrated that speed is highly valued, in that the more time an opposing force has time to prepare, the fewer options are available to those performing the roam.
We have also effectively demonstrated, that players are unwilling to sit in ships guarding anything short of a gate camp, as it is considered too dull as a play dynamic.


Speed is a concern only if you can actually make a difference when you arrive. If you are facing opposition with 2-3x the firepower and tank per pilot, and they can swap 50-60% of their DPS to apply it well to your itty bitty ship, why would you bother undocking something that will come apart like a paper plane hit with a GAU-8?

And why should fast moving players expect to be intercepted by slow moving ships?
With the exception of gate camps, finding a BS guarding likely targets is simply not a significant probability.

The faster ships are going to either encounter their chosen targets, or other fast moving ships.
A defending player is rather unlikely to undock in a ship that expects to show up AFTER the fight. Any BS being scrambled is doing so because it is either already local, or expecting to counter other BS class ships.

A key point of that warp speed nerf, is to separate the type of use these ships have in situations like this.

James Baboli wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:

It's not that the BS is overpowered, in my recent suggestion, but rather that it is worth the wait, if the battle is not yet resolved.
Why undock in anything so slow, if your impact in the fight is no more than the other ships already present?


It is overpowered. If you can't see why, grab your ears and pull until there is a popping noise, and your spine resumes a mostly straight configuration.

Well, that was a well thought and concise argument.

At first I thought you were an engineer, now it seems you aspire to something between mad-doctor and chiropractor.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#392 - 2014-12-16 20:04:38 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Selectively quoting me, in order to leave out details inconvenient to your argument, means you only argued against YOUR version of what I said.

I specified those three points for a reason, since they only form the meaningful logic together.

I have restored here the missing key point, which I think makes your rebuttal less meaningful.
James Baboli wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:

The battleship is not going on any roams where speed is a primary concern.
We have demonstrated that speed is highly valued, in that the more time an opposing force has time to prepare, the fewer options are available to those performing the roam.
We have also effectively demonstrated, that players are unwilling to sit in ships guarding anything short of a gate camp, as it is considered too dull as a play dynamic.


Speed is a concern only if you can actually make a difference when you arrive. If you are facing opposition with 2-3x the firepower and tank per pilot, and they can swap 50-60% of their DPS to apply it well to your itty bitty ship, why would you bother undocking something that will come apart like a paper plane hit with a GAU-8?

And why should fast moving players expect to be intercepted by slow moving ships?
With the exception of gate camps, finding a BS guarding likely targets is simply not a significant probability.

The faster ships are going to either encounter their chosen targets, or other fast moving ships.
A defending player is rather unlikely to undock in a ship that expects to show up AFTER the fight. Any BS being scrambled is doing so because it is either already local, or expecting to counter other BS class ships.

A key point of that warp speed nerf, is to separate the type of use these ships have in situations like this.


Or if the ships in question are the primary doctrine because nothing else can match them. Like the case of a fight recently where carriers and supers spent 4 hours getting to the fight because it takes carriers and supers to fight carriers and supers effectively.

This same, stagnant style of gameplay, where the only counter to it is N+1 of the same thing is what your change would inflict on battleships. Rather than a choice of skirmishing, and having to evac while leaving some of the fleet to die if confronted by a well set up heavier force, you would lose your entire fleet to these battleships which can suddenly apply apply effective damage out of their weightclass. For an example of why being able to punch down that hard is bad, I invite you to look at the modern blapdread, and then take a look at oldschool tracking titans.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#393 - 2014-12-16 21:03:53 UTC
James Baboli wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
And why should fast moving players expect to be intercepted by slow moving ships?
With the exception of gate camps, finding a BS guarding likely targets is simply not a significant probability.

The faster ships are going to either encounter their chosen targets, or other fast moving ships.
A defending player is rather unlikely to undock in a ship that expects to show up AFTER the fight. Any BS being scrambled is doing so because it is either already local, or expecting to counter other BS class ships.

A key point of that warp speed nerf, is to separate the type of use these ships have in situations like this.


Or if the ships in question are the primary doctrine because nothing else can match them. Like the case of a fight recently where carriers and supers spent 4 hours getting to the fight because it takes carriers and supers to fight carriers and supers effectively.

This same, stagnant style of gameplay, where the only counter to it is N+1 of the same thing is what your change would inflict on battleships. Rather than a choice of skirmishing, and having to evac while leaving some of the fleet to die if confronted by a well set up heavier force, you would lose your entire fleet to these battleships which can suddenly apply apply effective damage out of their weightclass. For an example of why being able to punch down that hard is bad, I invite you to look at the modern blapdread, and then take a look at oldschool tracking titans.

So, I put this forth:
The more clever player will send in fast moving groups, expecting to enter grid, fire on a target, and exit the grid before BS class vessels arrive in significant numbers.
(They can work out response time, or they can use scouts. Heck, a good strategist can have the BS ships wasting time heading towards a decoy assault while the real one is going down)

Speed is the new stealth.
Anything the BS can't catch up to, might as well be invisible to it.

On a side note, even if a BS can effectively target smaller ships, why would it prioritize them above the larger ships that could more effectively damage it?

I know your topic title is worth the warp, but maybe we should focus more on making the BS worth the wait instead.
I feel that noone, especially not a frigate pilot, should be relieved that enemy reinforcements were limited to BS class ships.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#394 - 2014-12-16 21:20:59 UTC
Barrogh Habalu wrote:
So, are we kinda back to early days of EVE when there was no tracking and the only reason not to fly BS was the fact that they required an expenditure economy couldn't sustain on massive scales back then?

Or maybe time machine isn't potent enough and we're just back to the age of tracking titans, just with BS this time?

I don't see how BS inability to roflstomp anything that comes their way is the problem of the class. It has more to do that smaller ships perform almost as good at what is supposedly a "BS thing" (tank + raw DPS that requires support to be applied), but also have mobility on top of that.



THe inability is not of rolfstomping.. is to be a sane choice for any group that can affor basically anything else. They are simply HORRIBLE.... and saved only by being t1 hulls, therefore disposable.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#395 - 2014-12-16 21:22:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Kagura Nikon
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Probably takes more time to get in a HAC than a BS as you need a few skill to V before you can train HAC. Should HAC literally **** on every lesser sub cap because of training time?

Marauder should be the wtfpwnmobile because :training time:?

Comparing a ship model to a ship size class, is not a valid one.

A specialized ship, like the HAC or Marauder, is designed for a specific role, which excludes it from generalized considerations in such context.

Perhaps your question should be: Should cruisers dump on destroyers and frigates?
Should battleships dump on cruisers?

Are we fighting in one game, or three divided by size classes?
The ability to place weapons into a lower class than the hull does not change this dynamic. The weapons represent offensive abilities, while the hull is your defensive aspect.

The suggestion of fitting medium or small turrets is simply reduced to devoting the offense to a different size class, or splitting it between them.

I would point out, that the skills needed to train into a battleship INCLUDE
Frigate, to a minimum of level 3
Destroyer, to a minimum level of 3
Cruiser, to a minimum level of 3
Battlecruiser, to a minimum level of 3
Battleship, any level at or above 1

In addition, you must have these skills specific to the race in question, relevant to the racial aspect of the BS.

So, should the BS pilot be able to use the weapons, and know the operations, of each class smaller than they are?
They have paid the skill points to have the skills, after all is said and done.

Maybe the point could be made, that for every frigate or cruiser the BS devotes it's attention to, one less ship of equal or larger size than the target must be free from such threat.

Imagine that, the pilot of the the most skill intensive subcap class of ships, being able to fight those smaller classes effectively.


If the pilot of the battleship can effectively fight small class ship, they will all fly battleship because there is no point to anything smaller. That is the problem with your suggestion. Getting in a hull one size bigger is not supposed to be a direct upgrade. You are supposed to trade something for something else. If the bigger one can deal with everything, it means the lesser one become borderline useless and only usefull during a "leveling" period.



Simplistic dumbed longic can be played by both sides.. IF Battleships cannot fight smaller ships there is ZERO reason to anyone fly them at all.

Battleships already trade a LOT! They trade off not being able to decide at all when they are going to engage or not. THey trade the need to travel for 2 times longer. Giving all opportunities for enemies to finish their job and gtfo before you arrive.

When they arrive they must be STRONGER than any ship class that can take 1/3 of the time to arrive there.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
FireFrenzy
Cynosural Samurai
#396 - 2014-12-16 21:38:27 UTC
Nikk, As much as i am loathe to plumb your depths, i suspect you have not actually read the opening post, digested the threads goals and heaven forbid you actually read and maybe commented on the linked google document.

If you had you will find out that this is perhaps the single most well researched thread on the forum and James is doing some GENUINELY good work here. And besides that his suggestions are very reasonable.

You make a good case that nowadays speed is the name of the game in the sort of "slashing at the sides of the enemy"/"slippery pete"/guerrilla warfare being the go to way to fit ships. Okay i might not know nullsec block fitting strategies, never really been in one for any extended period of time. But, I dunno, we should encourage diversification in viable ship types? I know that that might be overly optimistic. I think the world (the space between worlds???) would be a more interesting place if more then just 10% of the ships were viable at any one point. As much as i applaud the designer of the "slippery pete" for thinking up something so brutally effective and out of the box, I doubt its a doctrine i for one would enjoy flying...

But then i have always like the "drawing a line in the sand" fights, you and all the friends you can bring on one side and they and all their closest spacebros on their side of the line and may the best man win the resulting beat down. But this game play isnt very viable right now... Partly because bombers, partly because the rise of the "slippery pete" and its analogs. Prior because massive over escalating hot drops, but the travel changes have stopped that.

Also the locked threads you link in your signature seem to indicate a strong desire to deal with nullsec as the only right way to play, which i presume might have something to do with this clamping down on "maintaining the status quo" you seem to have ranked highly on your agenda.

And then as an aside I'd like to point out there are of course those scrubs like me who actually do some PVE stuff on occasion and like to do so in battleships, which while not optimal make us feel like the boss of a kilometer long 100 million tonne (i for one think that's what CCP means with the masses) WEAPON OF WAR capable of annihilating entire planetary populations simply and exclusively because i feel like it.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#397 - 2014-12-16 21:52:06 UTC
Barrogh Habalu wrote:
So, are we kinda back to early days of EVE when there was no tracking and the only reason not to fly BS was the fact that they required an expenditure economy couldn't sustain on massive scales back then?

Or maybe time machine isn't potent enough and we're just back to the age of tracking titans, just with BS this time?

I don't see how BS inability to roflstomp anything that comes their way is the problem of the class. It has more to do that smaller ships perform almost as good at what is supposedly a "BS thing" (tank + raw DPS that requires support to be applied), but also have mobility on top of that.



And the exact opposite where thre is no reason at all to fly a batleship except fifyour economy cannot sustain T3 and HAC replacements is better?

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#398 - 2014-12-16 22:02:01 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
[
So, I put this forth:
The more clever player will send in fast moving groups, expecting to enter grid, fire on a target, and exit the grid before BS class vessels arrive in significant numbers.
(They can work out response time, or they can use scouts. Heck, a good strategist can have the BS ships wasting time heading towards a decoy assault while the real one is going down)

Speed is the new stealth.
Anything the BS can't catch up to, might as well be invisible to it.

On a side note, even if a BS can effectively target smaller ships, why would it prioritize them above the larger ships that could more effectively damage it?

I know your topic title is worth the warp, but maybe we should focus more on making the BS worth the wait instead.
I feel that noone, especially not a frigate pilot, should be relieved that enemy reinforcements were limited to BS class ships.




First.. you are right. Speed (As in align and warp speed) is the most important aspect of a force as long as that force has enough defense and offense to survive a short timed encounter and do damage on that time.

Nothign wrong with that.

On the "On a side note, even if a BS can effectively target smaller ships, why would it prioritize them above the larger ships that could more effectively damage it?" they would NOT!

A balanced game woudl work somehow like the fleets of real world in WW1 and ww2. Battleships woudl NOT fire on torpedo boats (bombers).. but torpedo boats that can get close to battleships coudl cause HUGE havoc. Escort ships, cruisers main work was to keep formation control and line control, that is.. not letting the torpedo boats to get into range they can cause damage.

Battleships sluged at each others, adn any cruiser stupid enough to get into the main line would ge SLAUGHTERED! So when you try to control the line you need not only expand and defend, you need to open space for your own torpedo boats (bobmers) so that your new positioning do not put your cuisers at a position where they will just be slaughtered by the battleships.

FIghts end when one battleshiip group decimated the other. After that.. the cruisers had moments to live, so they bugged off. Or when one group of cruisers was superior to the other up to the point they generated a field situation where the enemy battleships coudl be direclty attacked by torpedo boats or destroyers usign torpedos.



That is FAR FAR more interestign gameplay, that woudl be far more fun for players and FAR more demandign for fleet commanders, than the current EVERYBODY BRING A ISHTAR .. or EVERYBODY brign a TENGU.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#399 - 2014-12-16 22:12:42 UTC
FireFrenzy wrote:
Nikk, As much as i am loathe to plumb your depths, i suspect you have not actually read the opening post, digested the threads goals and heaven forbid you actually read and maybe commented on the linked google document.

If you had you will find out that this is perhaps the single most well researched thread on the forum and James is doing some GENUINELY good work here. And besides that his suggestions are very reasonable.

Actually, I read all of it, and the docs too.

I appreciate the level of detail he has gone to, but I find that his goal seems best described as restoring the previous status quo.

I am not interested in maintaining a status quo, when it does not feel to be in the best interest of the game to me.
Fighting against the status quo is often most challenged by those who benefit from it, or more specifically believe that they do.
(Ironically, I have in the past, argued against people who would have benefited more from my suggestions, and were actually arguing against themselves as well as myself)

FireFrenzy wrote:
...

Also the locked threads you link in your signature seem to indicate a strong desire to deal with nullsec as the only right way to play, which i presume might have something to do with this clamping down on "maintaining the status quo" you seem to have ranked highly on your agenda.

And then as an aside I'd like to point out there are of course those scrubs like me who actually do some PVE stuff on occasion and like to do so in battleships, which while not optimal make us feel like the boss of a kilometer long 100 million tonne (i for one think that's what CCP means with the masses) WEAPON OF WAR capable of annihilating entire planetary populations simply and exclusively because i feel like it.

Actually, that is a common misconception.
I actually spent more hours mining than any other activity.

I view those threads from two perspectives, that of a miner as well as that of a cloaking character.
I do both, although I loathe AFK cloaking as a play style. Anything that passive aggressive belongs in a soap opera, as far as I am concerned.

As to this thread, I applaud the idea to move the BS class forward, but only so long as it is not simply resuming it's previous relationship in the sub-cap tree.
These changes can be a fantastic opportunity to make these ships more than just big targets.

IF... we are willing to think outside the box.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#400 - 2014-12-16 22:29:22 UTC
Unfortunately CCP has a bad habit of thinking on ship classes in isolation to the true metagame.


It is not a mere thing of compare the raw strenght of a class with other. You need to rationalize roles that are feasible and make sense.



One place were ccp F#!@#!@ up was when they game the bombs to STEALTH bombers. The bom concept was great, but when they added them to ships that coudl keep hidden until they fire, they removed any chance of developing a meaningful order of battle. You do not need cuisers to protect battleships fromt he bobmers, because the cruisers are UNABLE to do so.. therefore battleships are sitting ducks! The result is that advanced cruisers are the best selection of ships on the majority of the scenarios.


If I was able to decide things. The SB bomb would have its power increased by some good 50-60%. But would remove ALL resistances to damage. So that only a single bomb can be used at same time. At sametime woudl create a t2 destroyer, of the newest destroyers hulls to resume the old bomber role.

Make these fast liek interdictors, and able to fire bombs in a moderate rate. Also make these bombs be possible to volley in up to 8 units. They would be very powerful tactical ships, but HACS would pick them apart.. if hacs were used to protect the BATTLESHIPS!!!

Now.. give battleships a bit more raw EHP. Make battleships guns be tier 1 good against cruisers.. tier 2 QUITE higher dps but HORRIBLE against cruisers.

OK, now you have a mimic of real life order of battle and that is WAY more fun that current metagame. The cruisers and BC need to control the line , get rid of the interdictors that will be used to block the battleships from waves of destroyers with bombs.. to open way for them. At same time the mediumships at other side would be tryign to deny that.

At same time battleships could be fitted to slug lots of dps at capitals... or fit to help fight the cruiser sized vessels.. but on this case by beign closer to the line risking a lot being bomb runed.





But no... today we have a SAD metagame where is type 1 of ship slugging agisnt type 1 or type 2 and if ome of these are battleships.. suddenly a wave of bobmers get out of nowhere and neutralize one side completely with no MEANINGFUL TACTICAL ENGAGEMENT VALUE

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"