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Phoebe: A new kind of exploration site

First post
Author
Any Name
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#21 - 2014-11-04 18:09:08 UTC
Pinaculus wrote:

The sites are in Low/Null.

They take longer to scan down.

They also take longer to complete.

The longer you're in a system scanning, the more likely someone else will happen along. The longer you're staring at the hacking mini-game, the more likely someone will try to violence your space ship or steal a loot can from you.

I think that is the whole point of these. I'm not sure if it'll be successful, but it seems to be the intent.


Makes sense, in theory. I just think that SP is the only barrier, not actual skill. There is some skill in hacking quickly/efficiently, but level IV Hacking/Archaeology aren't that long a train, and ship/implants/rigs can overcome a lot of the differences. As to can modules and rigs for scanning, if that is where the player is lacking.

The danger level will be even for everyone that spent the time or the ISK to be able to scan them down. Scanning hasn't been difficult since we had to move our own probes around into formations. Now its very simple, and the only barrier is SP or modifications to overcome lack of SP.

Taking longer to scan down sigs doesn't really increase the danger anyhow, since you'll be cloaked and scanning. The only part of this that increases danger is the difficulty of the hack now. So, in that way, the increased time to find the sig is just an annoyance and not really creating a lot of gameplay.

I can understand it being a barrier to newer players, but it really isn't. It takes 30'ish days to get a character into a Covops, have scan-boosting modules, rigs and hack/arch to level IV. Add in some implants and you get someone on-par with the veteran.

Anyway, it seems like a pointless change is all I'm saying. I like the increased hacking difficulty and the environmental damage. The increased scan time doesn't add much as a barrier or for gameplay value.
Any Name
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2014-11-04 18:13:16 UTC
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Any Name wrote:
I get that part, and that is unrelated to my question. The site is harder to scan down, but to what end? Higher bar of SP for explorers? Drop less points (in less time) into some supporting skills and rig/implant/module, then you have equal footing with someone that has the greater SP. It just adds a minor and inexpensive hurdle. Making it take a bit longer to scan down or a little harder for a newer explorer, isn't really adding much to gameplay. Save for adding annoyance, that is.

New explorers? Learn the skills, buy some rigs and implants, fit proper modules. Rome wasn't build with a day. Why this game must be easy with everything? After month you will be bored with it because "loot is crap" and dedicated explorers will be left with broken game mechanism. It's already too easy btw.


I don't know if you realize it, but you and I agree on this. I was saying the same exact thing, and just questioned why the change at all, since it doesn't really add a hurdle for anyone. Or at least only a minor one, that most have already hurdled with implants/rigs/modules.

Wasn't sure if you were arguing against me, but you echoed my thoughts and sentiment in a way. Making the scanning "harder" isn't actually making it harder for anyone. It is only making it an annoyance for everyone.

Keep the hacking difficulty and other changes, those are fine and still represent a skill hurdle of sorts.
CCP Paradox
#23 - 2014-11-04 18:27:30 UTC
Soden Rah wrote:
CCP Paradox wrote:
These sites are aimed at the experienced explorer. Those who are looking for more of a challenge when scanning (they are harder to find than any other site that exists right now) and also the hacking requires some skill to be able to pull off.

If you try out the site, you will probably get that they are very hard and a 'new' player would not be able to wander into these without some serious skill.


Just for clarification...

When you say 'skill'... Are you referring to "skill as a player" or "skills your character has injected and trained" ...
And are you using the word consistently in the post.


Because new players don't have top trained character skills kinda by definition.


Skill as a player, but thinking about the hacking involved unless you are extremely lucky at finding the system core, I doubt you could hack it.

And to answer the question on WH stuff. I will pose the questions tomorrow to SoniClover. This is just the first site of its kind however...

CCP Paradox | EVE QA | Team Phenomenon

Space Magician

Skyler Hawk
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#24 - 2014-11-04 18:38:24 UTC
Is it intentional that microwarpdrives are disabled in these sites?
Seven Koskanaiken
Shadow Legions.
#25 - 2014-11-04 18:39:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Seven Koskanaiken
Any Name wrote:
What is the point of making the site harder to scan down, unless the ship inside it is harder to scan down? This makes it harder for Explorers, but easier for Exploders to combat-scan those Explorers down.

Just wondered why it was important to make them harder to scan, especially if the barrier for entry can be jumped by modules/rigs/implants. The hacking skill and fitting skills for survival should be the main barrier here, imo.


The scanning is easy mode at the moment. Even on crystal quarries and 10/10s I can bring probes down two steps at a time and still hit the signature without implants. Astrometrics V was also nerfed when they changed it from opening up the deep space probe to just strength modifier,...strength that was redundant due to the ease of the scanning, so this makes nicer cost/benefit ratio when considering to train all the way to V versus buying the implant.

As for being easy prey, well......you're playing EVE. Shocked

The hacking difficulty also makes sense, and more reason to train hacking V. A red core game can be blitzed and coherence wasted without much care, the only time you'd pay attention was if there was a tower in the can, otherwise it was insta win.
Max Kolonko
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#26 - 2014-11-04 19:27:43 UTC
Acceleration gate masked as wormhole made me rofl. Seriously, thats kind of lame. Seeing wh after hacking was like WOW. And then when activated i was just hurled like normal accelerafion gate. Dissapointed.
Burneddi
Avanto
Hole Control
#27 - 2014-11-04 21:08:22 UTC
Max Kolonko wrote:
Acceleration gate masked as wormhole made me rofl. Seriously, thats kind of lame. Seeing wh after hacking was like WOW. And then when activated i was just hurled like normal accelerafion gate. Dissapointed.

Can you imagine the wormholer tears if those actually took you to an actual wormhole system where you'd find the follow-up for the site?
Lord Azori
Bob's Bait and Tackle
I Showed You My Probes... Please Respond...
#28 - 2014-11-04 21:46:51 UTC
Burneddi wrote:
Max Kolonko wrote:
Acceleration gate masked as wormhole made me rofl. Seriously, thats kind of lame. Seeing wh after hacking was like WOW. And then when activated i was just hurled like normal accelerafion gate. Dissapointed.

Can you imagine the wormholer tears if those actually took you to an actual wormhole system where you'd find the follow-up for the site?


WH Tears.....you mean the tears of joy at the target rich environment?
Ransu Asanari
Perkone
Caldari State
#29 - 2014-11-05 00:45:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Ransu Asanari
Feedback:



  • The Acceleration Gate masked in the wormhole graphic is pretty kludgy. The acceleration gate is invisible, and its easy to get hung up on the object and not be able to warp into the second site.

  • It's possible to make a bookmark in the second room, warp off, and warp back to the bookmark. Unsure if the second room was intended to put you back at the first acceleration gate.

  • Microwarpdrive usage is disabled for both rooms of the Data site " You cannot activate this module here because natural phenomena are disrupting its operation". Tested in PF-QHK on Singularity. Is this by design? It really makes it too slow to move around the site, and since you're on a timer from the Remote Pressure Control.

  • Some of the containers are spawning way too close to other objects in the site, such as the "Ruptured Pressure Station" and "Pressure Station Debris". It basically forces you to go inside the collision model of the one object to hack and open the cans. Because of the way the collision model works, you're constantly bouncing off the invisible spheres, and can't warp or navigate properly. Please move the spawns cans away from other objects in the site.

  • After you successfully hack the Remote Pressure Control, you can't hack it again for a retry if you have to warp out for any reason. That means you have to hack the can inside the Fire Cloud while taking damage. That's not really an issue - you can tank the damage even in a Covops Frigate with a Small Armor Repairer (barely). Just something to consider.

  • Site description popup doesn't occur on subsequent warps into the site - the signature is still there, but warping to a bookmark inside the site pops no description after the first time. Even if you rescan the site and warp to it from the Probe Scanner window, there is no popup.
Ransu Asanari
Perkone
Caldari State
#30 - 2014-11-05 00:46:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Ransu Asanari
Bugs:


  • Although this is a Data site, some of the "Mangled Storage Depots" and "Dented Storage Depots" can only be accessed using a Relic Analyzer - bug: "Spawn Container is not a valid target for this module"

  • Plasma Chamber overview hover description is "no messagID: 297211". This is also true for Plasma Chamber explosions:

  • "Your close proximity to the unstable Plasma Chamber has caused it to rupture. Beware the hazardous plasma cloud in the vicinity."
    01:00:24 Combat 250 from [no messageID: 297212] - Hits

  • The messages for the Remote Pressure Chamber after hacking seems to cycle multiple times (not sure if bug):

  • 60 seconds until pressure returns.
    30 seconds until pressure returns.
    10 seconds...
    60 seconds until pressure returns.
    Pressure will return in 30 seconds.
    10 seconds...
    Your close proximity to the unstable Plasma Chamber has caused it to rupture. Beware the hazardous plasma cloud in the vicinity
Soden Rah
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2014-11-05 01:14:18 UTC
CCP Paradox wrote:
Soden Rah wrote:
CCP Paradox wrote:
These sites are aimed at the experienced explorer. Those who are looking for more of a challenge when scanning (they are harder to find than any other site that exists right now) and also the hacking requires some skill to be able to pull off.

If you try out the site, you will probably get that they are very hard and a 'new' player would not be able to wander into these without some serious skill.


Just for clarification...

When you say 'skill'... Are you referring to "skill as a player" or "skills your character has injected and trained" ...
And are you using the word consistently in the post.


Because new players don't have top trained character skills kinda by definition.


Skill as a player, but thinking about the hacking involved unless you are extremely lucky at finding the system core, I doubt you could hack it.

And to answer the question on WH stuff. I will pose the questions tomorrow to SoniClover. This is just the first site of its kind however...



Thankyou.
Lil' Brudder Too
Pistols for Pandas
#32 - 2014-11-05 01:52:26 UTC
CCP Paradox wrote:
These sites are aimed at the experienced explorer. Those who are looking for more of a challenge when scanning (they are harder to find than any other site that exists right now) and also the hacking requires some skill to be able to pull off.

If you try out the site, you will probably get that they are very hard and a 'new' player would not be able to wander into these without some serious skill.

Okay, so i'm just going to go ahead and bring up the attitude that has seemed to be portrayed by CCP as of late...

*but thats not fair, that means the new players will be at a disadvantage against the vets simply because they don't have lvl 5 skills...*

Isn't that the same reasoning behind all the *now only need lvl 1 skills* for, well, almost everything now, just so that 'the new players aren't at a disadvantage and make less iskies' ???
Lothar Katelo
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#33 - 2014-11-05 04:14:57 UTC
It would be cool if they added a few more hacking sites like this but with a few differences.

1.
One interesting thing that they can do is change it so that the clouds gave faction specific type of damage and if the containers were inside the clouds. The damage would also have to be proportional to the ship's signature radius so that it can be about equally difficult for both frigates and larger ships to run the sites. This site should be high value, and difficult to hack but not necessarily too difficult to scan down so that someone that isn't fit for exploring can still hunt the explorers, but would have a lot of difficulty completing the site.

Pilots would then have to give up something in their exploration fit to be able to tank the cloud damage while hacking, but they will also become more vulnerable to other types of damage. Even though they are more vulnerable, however, it would be risky for other pilots to just go in after them, if they are not also fit properly, and pilots that fit MWDs to their ships would not activate them because it would increase their signature radius and the damage received. Pilots can fit only target painters and be effective offensively, which would be really cool.

2.
Another cool thing that they can add is an alarm system in a different type of hacking site. The site can have the regular containers and an alarm system. Failing a container would trigger the alarm, which then would make the site available to warp to for anybody in the system for about 10 minutes. The security system would also send out an alert to pilots in the system. Imagine that type of mechanic in a WH system :)

The pilot can choose to hack the even more difficult alarm system first and disable it, but failing that would also make the site available to warp to and would alert pilots in the system as before. The security system would also decrease the number of hacking attempts possible for the containers to one. This site should be very difficult to scan down (only possible with high skills and good scanning equipment), difficult to hack and should have a high reward.
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#34 - 2014-11-05 05:32:29 UTC
i wish you could just pull the container out of the cloud with a tractor beam ;)

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value

Billy Hix
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#35 - 2014-11-05 06:28:53 UTC
Burneddi wrote:

Can you imagine the wormholer tears if those actually took you to an actual wormhole system where you'd find the follow-up for the site?


Your telling me random PVE fit ships getting teleported into a WH in my chain or even better into my home system wouldn't be the greatest change CCP have ever made???? Your wrong.

If Bob deems it to be, it will be.
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#36 - 2014-11-05 07:29:55 UTC
Any Name wrote:
I don't know if you realize it, but you and I agree on this. I was saying the same exact thing, and just questioned why the change at all, since it doesn't really add a hurdle for anyone. Or at least only a minor one, that most have already hurdled with implants/rigs/modules.

It's only for high end explorers, with skills and gear, not for everybody. Scanning is way to simple imo. I jump into system, signatures stacking on sun, looking like big raspberry and after 2 minutes all probed. Now imagine you are jumping to a system with a sig but with current fit you can't probe it to "green bar" (and ofc its not a bugBig smile). What might that be? Is it probes or maybe i need a scanning module fitted?
There must be some treshholds and some kind of progression in exploration profession.

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville

Kata Amentis
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#37 - 2014-11-05 11:13:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Kata Amentis
fyi

Quote:

This acceleration gate is not configured to handle your Stratios.
It handles:
Assault Frigate
Covert Ops
Expedition Frigate
Electronic Attack Ship
Frigate
Interceptor
Rookie ship
Prototype Exploration Ship
Shuttle


edit:
Quote:

11:50:12 Combat 37 from Fire Cloud - Hits


what fire cloud? nothing in the "all" overview, where is it? how do i get away from it... wtf?! (probably better if there was some indication of where the damage was coming from) or is this something to do with:

Quote:

EVE System > Channel changed to Local : Yehnifi
Message > color=0xffffd800>[no messageID: 297377]color>
Message > color=0xffffd800>[no messageID: 297378]color>
Message > color=0xffff0000>[no messageID: 297379]color>

Curiosity killed the Kata... ... but being immortal he wasn't too worried about keeping a count.

CCP SoniClover
C C P
C C P Alliance
#38 - 2014-11-05 11:55:38 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP SoniClover
Thanks for the feedback so far. We're making adjustments to the small site as we speak, these should be out in Sisi tomorrow. Some of the things we're adjusting:
- Allowing MWDs
- Disallowing warping directly into deadspace
- Restricting site to frigate-sized ships only - the small site is aimed at that ship size, the medium and large will allow bigger ships. This is necessary because environmental damage cannot be scaled based on player ship, so we'd either had to choose between making the site completely lethal for small ships or insignificant for larger ships if we allowed any ship in there.
- The name of the site is changing to Limited Sleeper Cache
- Adjusting a few timers and damage for balance
- Editing a few message texts for clarity
- Adjusting the effect of failing a bit
- A few cosmetic touch-ups on the site.
- Adjusting the loot drops a little bit

We're aiming to get this out early next week. Expect a dev blog around the same time.

Thanks again for all your feedback!

Edit: Also, the no message stuff is do to with a pickle issue on Sisi, should be ok tomorrow.
Kata Amentis
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#39 - 2014-11-05 12:15:21 UTC
'CCP Paradox' wrote:

You will find some environmental dangers inside the site, so try to be aware of your surroundings.


Kata Amentis wrote:


Quote:

11:50:12 Combat 37 from Fire Cloud - Hits


what fire cloud? nothing in the "all" overview, where is it? how do i get away from it... wtf?! (probably better if there was some indication of where the damage was coming from)



I think the problem with this is that we're very used to the "fluffy" clouds just being back drop, or a harvestable resource. The clouds in the site look exactly like every other cloud.

Would it be possible to maybe animate them so the plasma cloud had active lightning arcing through it or plumes/waves of fire in the fire clouds: anything that might cause a "ooo that might cause me damage" reaction rather than "oh, more fluff". The edges of the clouds are also quite hard to see, they fade out before the "edge" so you can take damage from what looks to be empty space.

When you get too close to the plasma chamber wreckage there is an explosion, a blast wave, all very obvious "hazards" the clouds are deceptive (can we shoot the chambers to trigger them? might try that next time).

Curiosity killed the Kata... ... but being immortal he wasn't too worried about keeping a count.

Michal Jita
Lords Of The Universe
#40 - 2014-11-05 12:19:57 UTC
CCP SoniClover wrote:
Thanks for the feedback so far. We're making adjustments to the small site as we speak, these should be out in Sisi tomorrow. Some of the things we're adjusting:
- Allowing MWDs
- Disallowing warping directly into deadspace
- Restricting site to frigate-sized ships only - the small site is aimed at that ship size, the medium and large will allow bigger ships. This is necessary because environmental damage cannot be scaled based on player ship, so we'd either had to choose between making the site completely lethal for small ships or insignificant for larger ships if we allowed any ship in there.
- The name of the site is changing to Limited Sleeper Cache
- Adjusting a few timers and damage for balance
- Editing a few message texts for clarity
- Adjusting the effect of failing a bit
- A few cosmetic touch-ups on the site.
- Adjusting the loot drops a little bit

We're aiming to get this out early next week. Expect a dev blog around the same time.

Thanks again for all your feedback!

Edit: Also, the no message stuff is do to with a pickle issue on Sisi, should be ok tomorrow.


What about where are they going to be spawning?
Being sleeper based majority of these should spawn in wormholes.

The SiSi list was showing them to be available everywhere in Kspace effectively nerfing WHs again.